Do you think it is piracy to use Cheat Engine on a F2P game to get otherwise paid content?

[WeepingAngels]

I saw this on NeoGaf and think it's an interesting question.

If I can pay real money for Gems to speed up a game function, is it piracy to give myself Gems with Cheat Engine or a trainer? I am talking about single player games only.

I personally say NO. If a developer writes code to add gems and then sells it and I illegally download that code then that is piracy but using Cheat Engine to manually modify a RAM value is not using the devs code.

What's your opinion.

 

[tippy2k2]

....that IS an interesting question.

I would argue that yes it is. Though the way to the content is different, the end result is the same; you're receiving something that you should be paying for without having to pay for it.

So technically, no, it's not. But by the spirit of the law...or.....the spirit of against the law?, it is piracy. At the end of the day, the developer is not getting money for something that they should be getting money for, therefore piracy.

 

[mad825]

Well really you shouldn't be able to pirate/hack muti-player games using Cheat Engine in first place. I place it down to the incompetence to the developer of the game.

Cheat Engine gets updated on a yearly (more or les) basis so there are no excuses for protection being circumvented.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Well really you shouldn't be able to pirate/hack muti-player games using Cheat Engine in first place. I place it down to the incompetence to the developer of the game.

I never meant multiplayer games, I will change the OP. How about single player F2P games?

 

[WeepingAngels]

....that IS an interesting question.

I would argue that yes it is. Though the way to the content is different, the end result is the same; you're receiving something that you should be paying for without having to pay for it.

So technically, no, it's not. But by the spirit of the law...or.....the spirit of against the law?, it is piracy. At the end of the day, the developer is not getting money for something that they should be getting money for, therefore piracy.

Why SHOULD you be paying for what is just a cheat code? Think about it this way, why should I pay for a McDonalds cheeseburger if I can make my own that is just as good.

 

[mad825]

Well really you shouldn't be able to pirate/hack muti-player games using Cheat Engine in first place. I place it down to the incompetence to the developer of the game.

I never meant multiplayer games, I will change the OP. How about single player F2P games?

Well the point is still relevant, if they didn't bother placing any kind of protection whatsoever on real money brought items/money then it's an issue that they (the developer) should sort out. Nothing is being broken, if something is connected a server, it should be verified.

 

[tippy2k2]

....that IS an interesting question.

I would argue that yes it is. Though the way to the content is different, the end result is the same; you're receiving something that you should be paying for without having to pay for it.

So technically, no, it's not. But by the spirit of the law...or.....the spirit of against the law?, it is piracy. At the end of the day, the developer is not getting money for something that they should be getting money for, therefore piracy.

Why SHOULD you be paying for what is just a cheat code? Think about it this way, why should I pay for a McDonalds cheeseburger if I can make my own that is just as good.

Because it's not a cheat code. If it was a cheat code, any Joe Smoe could just punch in the letters and get it. It's basically hacking their system (in fact, IS it hacking their system? Because I don't know how else you'd be able to "take" things you're supposed to be paying for).

As to your example, I'm not sure where you're going with that. If you can make that McDonald's Cheeseburger just as well, then you make it. If you waltz into McDonald's, grab one of their cheeseburgers and tell them "I can make this at home so it's cool if I take this", I'm thinking that's not going to fly with them.

 

[TheIceQueen]

....that IS an interesting question.

I would argue that yes it is. Though the way to the content is different, the end result is the same; you're receiving something that you should be paying for without having to pay for it.

So technically, no, it's not. But by the spirit of the law...or.....the spirit of against the law?, it is piracy. At the end of the day, the developer is not getting money for something that they should be getting money for, therefore piracy.

Why SHOULD you be paying for what is just a cheat code? Think about it this way, why should I pay for a McDonalds cheeseburger if I can make my own that is just as good.

Terrible analogy because you still have to pay for the groceries needed to make your own cheeseburger, unless you steal them.

 

[Batou667]

That's an interesting question.

I'd say if you were unlocking boosts or items to give yourself the edge in a multiplayer game, that would be immoral as you'd be gaining an advantage that other players would have to pay to match. You'd be taking for free something that everyone else has to pay for, which is more or less the definition of stealing.

However, in a strictly single-player game? I can't see the harm, at least not beyond the issue of hacking the game in the first place. But how many F2P games actually are single-player only? I honestly can't think of a single one.

Why SHOULD you be paying for what is just a cheat code? Think about it this way, why should I pay for a McDonalds cheeseburger if I can make my own that is just as good.

Not the best example to use, because walking into a McDonald's and taking a cheeseburger without paying is clearly theft.

 

[WeepingAngels]

....that IS an interesting question.

I would argue that yes it is. Though the way to the content is different, the end result is the same; you're receiving something that you should be paying for without having to pay for it.

So technically, no, it's not. But by the spirit of the law...or.....the spirit of against the law?, it is piracy. At the end of the day, the developer is not getting money for something that they should be getting money for, therefore piracy.

Why SHOULD you be paying for what is just a cheat code? Think about it this way, why should I pay for a McDonalds cheeseburger if I can make my own that is just as good.

Because it's not a cheat code. If it was a cheat code, any Joe Smoe could just punch in the letters and get it. It's basically hacking their system (in fact, IS it hacking their system? Because I don't know how else you'd be able to "take" things you're supposed to be paying for).

If you can obtain the same result by using a cheat code then it is the equivalent of a cheat code. As a matter of fact, any Joe Smoe can download Cheat Engine and modify a RAM value, it isn't hard at all.

My point with the McDonalds example is that the consumer determines the market value of a product. If the consumer sees no value in buying a cheat code, then they shouldn't buy a cheat code.

 

[WeepingAngels]

That's an interesting question.

I'd say if you were unlocking boosts or items to give yourself the edge in a multiplayer game, that would be immoral as you'd be gaining an advantage that other players would have to pay to match. You'd be taking for free something that everyone else has to pay for, which is more or less the definition of stealing.

However, in a strictly single-player game? I can't see the harm, at least not beyond the issue of hacking the game in the first place. But how many F2P games actually are single-player only? I honestly can't think of a single one.

Why SHOULD you be paying for what is just a cheat code? Think about it this way, why should I pay for a McDonalds cheeseburger if I can make my own that is just as good.

Not the best example to use, because walking into a McDonald's and taking a cheeseburger without paying is clearly theft.

I didn't say anything walking into McDonalds and stealing a burger. I am making my own burger. In this case, I would be making my own cheat code instead of buying it.

 

[Mezahmay]

If a developer writes code to add gems and then sells it and I illegally download that code then that is piracy...

I follow your argument so far.

...but using Cheat Engine to manually modify a RAM value is not using the devs code.

Ignoring the concept of a completely free single player only game that is released on PC yet solely relies on microtransactions for revenue, I feel that simply using the code as the definition of piracy is too simplistic. By generating premium currency from a source that is not the developer or approved third party in a video game, that is effectively counterfeit currency, which is illegal in economies that rely on inherently valueless currency that has a mutually accepted value. Its effect on the overall pay experience or the community as a whole will still be felt when the developer is not receiving any revenue from their product.

 

[tippy2k2]

If you can obtain the same result by using a cheat code then it is the equivalent of a cheat code. As a matter of fact, any Joe Smoe can download Cheat Engine and modify a RAM value, it isn't hard at all.

My point with the McDonalds example is that the consumer determines the market value of a product. If the consumer sees no value in buying a cheat code, then they shouldn't buy a cheat code.

No, the creator determines the value of the product. McDonald's could charge $1 for that cheeseburger or $5000 and they'd be well within their right to do so (they might not survive but it's not the consumers choice what they pay for the burger).

The consumer decides if they will pay the amount requested and are well within their right to determine that the price is too high. Just like regular piracy, them charging what you think is too high doesn't justify you just taking it.

 

[Mezahmay]

Why SHOULD you be paying for what is just a cheat code? Think about it this way, why should I pay for a McDonalds cheeseburger if I can make my own that is just as good.

Not the best example to use, because walking into a McDonald's and taking a cheeseburger without paying is clearly theft.

I didn't say anything walking into McDonalds and stealing a burger. I am making my own burger. In this case, I would be making my own cheat code instead of buying it.

The comparison with physical media is a false equivalence. A direct comparison would be you walking into McDonalds with a special machine that modified your reality to now include a cheese burger for free when the store normally charges $1 or whatever. Since this is a digital medium, manipulating the code to include values that are not supposed to be there is the closest one gets to theft when the item being added in is worth money.

 

[WeepingAngels]

If you can obtain the same result by using a cheat code then it is the equivalent of a cheat code. As a matter of fact, any Joe Smoe can download Cheat Engine and modify a RAM value, it isn't hard at all.

My point with the McDonalds example is that the consumer determines the market value of a product. If the consumer sees no value in buying a cheat code, then they shouldn't buy a cheat code.

No, the creator determines the value of the product. McDonald's could charge $1 for that cheeseburger or $5000 and they'd be well within their right to do so (they might not survive but it's not the consumers choice what they pay for the burger).

The consumer decides if they will pay the amount requested and are well within their right to determine that the price is too high. Just like regular piracy, them charging what you think is too high doesn't justify you just taking it.

So a cheat code is piracy only because the developer put a price on it?

 

[Lilani]

I saw this on NeoGaf and think it's an interesting question.

If I can pay real money for Gems to speed up a game function, is it piracy to give myself Gems with Cheat Engine or a trainer? I am talking about single player games only.

I personally say NO. If a developer writes code to add gems and then sells it and I illegally download that code then that is piracy but using Cheat Engine to manually modify a RAM value is not using the devs code.

What's your opinion.

I would call it piracy. At the very least it's definitely circumventing their pay model. In my eyes this is a bit different from on-disk DLC or microtransactions in games you paid for because you never paid for the game to begin with. To me, it should be one or the other. Either you charge for the game, or you charge for things within the game. A hybrid is unfair because you actually paid to play the game, and then they're trying to suck more money out of you. You're getting a limited experience from something you paid for, and that is not okay. The only time charging players for future services is okay if they are actually being rendered a SERVICE, in the way of MMOs, which require servers to run and receive regular content updates.

But if the game was free to begin with, I see the microtransaction model as fair. Yes it's exploitative and there are ways to do it which cross the lines of reasonability and fairness, but it's only fair that you have a limited experience for something you haven't put money into yet.

There are times when I think piracy is morally justifiable, such as emulating old games for the sake of preservation or messing with the code of a single-player game which required online connectivity to run, and can no longer be accessed since the servers for it have been shut down by the publisher. In the first case, it's preventing the game from being lost forever, which is important to the history of video games as a medium. In the second case, it's allowing the player to play a game which there's really no good reason they shouldn't be able to play. In fact I believe there was recently some legal headway on this, in favor of gamers who wish to create their own workarounds to keep playing games whose servers have been shut down. These are still illegal of course, but I think it's an important conversation to have and I hope some more legal headway can be made.

But in the case of F2P games, I don't think there's any moral justification in circumventing their pay model. You've made no other investment into the game, so you are owed nothing.

 

[tippy2k2]

So a cheat code piracy only because the developer put a price on it?

Yes. If they are charging you for something and you just take it for free through questionable means, it's piracy. It doesn't matter if it's as stupid as a t-shirt for your character to wear or a huge expansion pack that triples the games length; you're taking something that you are supposed to pay for without paying for it.

Piracy

 

[WeepingAngels]

So a cheat code piracy only because the developer put a price on it?

Yes. If they are charging you for something and you just take it for free through questionable means, it's piracy. It doesn't matter if it's as stupid as a t-shirt for your character to wear or a huge expansion pack that triples the games length; you're taking something that you are supposed to pay for without paying for it.

Piracy

What is "it"? It is not the developers code, it is a manual change you made yourself.

Questionable means? Cheat devices were challenged in court by Nintendo long ago, Nintendo lost.

 

[tippy2k2]

What is "it"? It is not the developers code, it is a manual change you made yourself.

Questionable means? Cheat devices were challenged in court by Nintendo long ago, Nintendo lost.

Well that might be part of the problem here; what are we talking about?

I know in my mind what I'm thinking of (like "Gems" in Clash of Clans or "Lives" in Candy Crush). I don't know what you're thinking of though.

 

[Lilani]

Questionable means? Cheat devices were challenged in court by Nintendo long ago, Nintendo lost.

Not applicable. The function of cheating devices in the past was not to avoid paying for things. If such a case were to happen again, the game company would certainly win because it's accessing content you're supposed to pay for. It would be no different from hacking your cable box to allow you to watch pay per view movies for free.