Do you think its wrong to step on bugs - why or why not?

[verdant monkai]

What are your thoughts? Is it wrong to step on bugs? Why or why not? Will it build bad "karma?"

Are you an Aussie by any chance? I just assumed from your shirtlessness and style of hat. To be fair in Australia killing a spider can save lives, same in other places. So if you want to use the "it was fucking dangerous so I killed it" excuse fair enough.

Yeah I'd say it is pretty wrong if the bug poses you no threat, its wrong to kill anything without a good reason really.

I'm not really a fan of the idea of karma, but its just basically a dick move so it depends if you want to be a nice person or a dick really. I don't think it makes you a bad person if you go around killing loads of bugs, as they are kind of small and pointless. But if someone killed a cat or a dog, in a lawless world I would honestly kill them with a smile on my face. Those animals are mankinds friends and they are usually completely innocent of any sins.

 

[Remus]

I look at it this way - every location has its own ecosystem. Flies are a nuisance but they dispose of waste that would otherwise grow, fester, and rot. inside a house, they're a nuisance. outside, that's one less pile of dog leftovers for me to worry about. Spiders kill flies in the house, and other pests. I don't bother them unless they're poisonous, and actually think the little black jumping spiders are kinda cute. See?

With the reports of species being lost every year, I only kill the bugs that create an unhealthy environment for humans. We do have children around my house, and a minor infestation of brown recluses around our shed. I've become extremely adept at spotting those suckers and kill every one I see, as a public service for the well being of every child as well as adult.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I try not to kill bugs if I can help it...they have really short lives as it is after all. The only bugs that I wuold advise anybody to kill en-mass would be mosquitoes since they are absolutely horrible, and spread disease and whatnot. I don't particularly care for bugs in general I just don't really see a point in killing them to begin with.

 

[TheRiddler]

Let me put it this way. I don't go out looking for bugs to kill. I don't get much pleasure from killing bugs. If I kill a bug, I try to make it quick and relatively painless. When a bug is in my house, or bothering me (flies buzzing around my ear), I smush them. Not because I'm a sadist , but because they give me the creeps and I don't want them near me.

I don't think that's wrong.

 

[Plasticaprinae]

I like bugs and I find them cute. I only really kill bugs if they're in MY BEDROOM or on me. They just get shooed to other places otherwise. I always save bees, I love them. They can count to four when they are in groups. They also headbutt other bees until they agree with them. Call a beekepper if you get a bee infestation, not pest control. I also enjoy looking at spiders, since most where I live are harmless. I'm... not easily creeped out.

I do find it sadistic to laugh at a half-alive creature, no matter how small. It is unnecessary, and honestly, pretty weird. It is a chore to keep yourself safe, not something to take pleasure in.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

They also headbutt other bees until they agree with them.

Wow, wish I could headbutt people to make them agree with me

 

[briankoontz]

As far as we know, insects aren't sentient, so I can't see a moral reason why it'd be wrong to kill one. Personally though, I think bugs are pretty cool and so I won't set out to kill one unless it's something like a mosquito which intends to make me it's next meal.

So whether something is ok to kill depends on whether or not we consider it sentient, bearing in mind changing human views on sentience and limitations and bias of the human perspective.

Even accepting this terrible basis for life-or-death morality, what about evolution? Every living species could develop into a species that you would describe as "sentient". But if a creature is killed, he or she provides less aid in that development and any such death of an insect could be the very death that prevents such evolution.

Considering it anything other than wrong to kill creatures less powerful than ourselves with no ability to fight back is nothing other than a justification for sociopathy.

People might quickly change their tune if a powerful alien species decided humans weren't sentient (they had no proof of human sentience, which is all that matters to them) and randomly squashed humans. Sure, many of the ones squashed would be poor Africans that noone cares about anyway, but what if Stephen Hawking got squashed, or your favorite game developer? Your grieving would be no more witnessed by the Amazing Alien Species than your sentience.

It's part of sentience itself to fully appreciate the world and living creatures within it. Perhaps the aliens who would squash us have a bit of a point in not recognizing our own sentience.

 

[SexyGarfield]

I think killing an insect manually is ultimately harmless given their reproductive cycle and that insects have a biomass per acre of 400 pounds per while humans are only 14 per. However, the motivations of an act can display more about a person than the act it self.

 

[Jux]

I don't have anything against killing bugs if they're being a nuissance, or are known vectors of human disease, but it seems dodgey to go out of your way to kill them, which, by your own admission in the OP, you did exactly that.

I was bored so before it got away I slid my foot over and quietly crunched the little guy.

I would say the issue is less that you're killing non sentient stuff, but rather that you're going out of your way to do it, for seemingly no other reason but for self amusement.

Getting instantly crushed doesn't seem so bad, does it?

I tilted my foot over to show the flattened spider to my buddy sitting across, and we sort of snickered when we saw that he was sticking to my muddy running shoe and half alive.

Emphasis mine. Not exactly a clean death now was it? And this is where it's kind of creepy for me. Now, I don't know exactly why you and your buddy were laughing, but if it was at the perceived pain [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_invertebrates] (I don't think spiders feel pain in the same way people do, but we certainly anthropomorphize animals in such a way as to imagine that they do), that's pretty fucked up.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

Only if it's quick and you make sure to kill it. Also, as long as you're not going out of your way to kill it.

 

[Illesdan]

I'm a pro-bug life type person myself. Practical reasons. I have a massive honeybee colony in the backyard, I like to watch them, I like their honey, and they pollinate the yard. Good enough for me.

I like spiders in the house; I don't have to buy nasty bug spray and all I have to do is clean up some old webs every few weeks.

The only bug I kill anymore is flies; and that's only if they just refuse to leave me alone. They seem to have this bad habit of flying in my face and around my ears, and by then, I'm just done. I'd put down mosquitoes; but since I've been on some powerful medication to keep my white cell count low, they seem to avoid me like the plague. Maybe my blood smells like diet Sprite to them...?

 

[DEAD34345]

-snip-

Cruelty? A spider isn't sentient; it has no self awareness. How can you be exhibit cruelty to something so mindless? Robots and AI are capable of learning and adapting through trial and error, so I don't think spiders are that far removed. They do what they're programmed by nature to do. They have no capacity for thinking. Same goes for ants; they're an extension of a colony.

Spiders probably don't have self awareness (though really, there's no way to tell for sure), but they're certainly intelligent enough to perceive some kind of suffering. Besides which, everything simply does what it's "programmed by nature" to do, including humans. We happen to be quite a bit more intelligent than spiders, but is that really enough to say it's OK to murder them on a random whim? As Briankoontz above me says, I doubt you'd consider it OK for a creature far more intelligent than humans to come murdering us for a laugh.

And yeah, if a spider is crawling under my desk, it's in my space. Just because it doesn't know it's in my space doesn't mean it isn't in the space that I claimed for myself. Is it hurting me? No, but that doesn't mean I want some creepy crawly thing near me.. stepping on it solves the problem. It made the mistake of crawling too close to a giant foot.. that's life. Has nothing to do with enjoying cruelty or sadism.

That isn't what you described in your opening post. You "were bored", so you squashed it. Then you and your friend laughed at it suffering, half alive on the bottom of your shoe. That's sadism to me, taking pleasure from inflicting pain and suffering. If you actually cared about the spider crawling near you and simply wanted to get rid of it (because of some kind of phobia or something I guess?), that would be more understandable, but it really seems like that's a justification you've made up after the fact.

 

[jakeyjakey]

I would say the issue is less that you're killing non sentient stuff, but rather that you're going out of your way to do it, for seemingly no other reason but for self amusement.

Sliding my foot a few inches over while I'm sitting down to squash a spider is pretty much effortless and doesn't feel like going out of my way at all. Going out of my way would be if I saw a spider on the other side of the room and got up to stomp it.

Emphasis mine. Not exactly a clean death now was it? And this is where it's kind of creepy for me. Now, I don't know exactly why you and your buddy were laughing, but if it was at the perceived pain [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_invertebrates] (I don't think spiders feel pain in the same way people do, but we certainly anthropomorphize animals in such a way as to imagine that they do), that's pretty fucked up.

I wasn't laughing as much for the fact that the spider may have suffered. It was just sort of funny the way it got stuck to a big patch of mud/grass that I picked up from running. Childish I guess, but not sadistic.

 

[jakeyjakey]

As far as we know, insects aren't sentient, so I can't see a moral reason why it'd be wrong to kill one. Personally though, I think bugs are pretty cool and so I won't set out to kill one unless it's something like a mosquito which intends to make me it's next meal.

So whether something is ok to kill depends on whether or not we consider it sentient, bearing in mind changing human views on sentience and limitations and bias of the human perspective.

Even accepting this terrible basis for life-or-death morality, what about evolution? Every living species could develop into a species that you would describe as "sentient". But if a creature is killed, he or she provides less aid in that development and any such death of an insect could be the very death that prevents such evolution.

Considering it anything other than wrong to kill creatures less powerful than ourselves with no ability to fight back is nothing other than a justification for sociopathy.

People might quickly change their tune if a powerful alien species decided humans weren't sentient (they had no proof of human sentience, which is all that matters to them) and randomly squashed humans. Sure, many of the ones squashed would be poor Africans that noone cares about anyway, but what if Stephen Hawking got squashed, or your favorite game developer? Your grieving would be no more witnessed by the Amazing Alien Species than your sentience.

It's part of sentience itself to fully appreciate the world and living creatures within it. Perhaps the aliens who would squash us have a bit of a point in not recognizing our own sentience.

This is actually a really interesting post. If these giant aliens were of similar intelligence to us, then I don't understand how they could not realize that we were sentient.

So in your example I'm assuming that their intelligence and perception is so much higher than ours that humans are basically to them, what ants are to us. If that's the case, then it kind of depends on the reason that they are doing it. Whether they're crushing a town consisting of white suburban businessmen or stamping out a nest of tiny naked Africans isn't as relevant as the motive. To them, they're just squashing some the native little bug-like creatures running around. On one hand we'd think they were stupid jerks for doing it, but on the other hand they don't really know any better. Hell, if I traveled to another world where there was a population of tiny little beings, effectively making me the giant alien, I might be doing the same thing to them. I'd crouch down and watch them for a while, get bored after an hour, then see what happens after I crush a couple towns. I don't consider that sadism as much as curiosity.

 

[And Man]

To me, stepping on an anthill is like stepping on a tiny automated robot factory that will self-repair. Watching them scramble like all hell afterward is actually interesting.

Yeah, and Mengele was also very interested in his work.

Did.... did you really just compare a guy stepping on an anthill to the fucking atrocities committed by Mengele? Like... seriously?

 

[FPLOON]

Honestly, I only step/kill bugs/insects if they're in my living space unless they are a ladybug or a butterfly, then I do [almost] whatever it takes to get them back outside unharmed...

Other than that, I'm indifferent to the many common bugs/insects as long as they don't try to pick a fight with me, especially if I'm outside my living space...

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

To me, stepping on an anthill is like stepping on a tiny automated robot factory that will self-repair. Watching them scramble like all hell afterward is actually interesting.

Yeah, and Mengele was also very interested in his work.

Did.... did you really just compare a guy stepping on an anthill to the fucking atrocities committed by Mengele? Like... seriously?

No, I compared their emotional responses or lack thereof.

 

[Astoria]

It's a bug. There are literally millions where it came from. Hell creatures like us killing them all the time is expected that's why the reproduce so dramatically. There's nothing sadistic about killing a bug every now and then. Going around and wiping out nests though that's another matter.

litterally millions, huh? That's your logic? You realize there are billions of humans (way more than your millions of insects) and in actuallity, probably trillions of insects. If not more. I mean... ants alone.... there are so many.....

Don't be pedantic. A billion is a thousand million so yes millions. And by where it came from I meant it's nest hense why I said wiping out a nest is bad.

 

[And Man]

To me, stepping on an anthill is like stepping on a tiny automated robot factory that will self-repair. Watching them scramble like all hell afterward is actually interesting.

Yeah, and Mengele was also very interested in his work.

Did.... did you really just compare a guy stepping on an anthill to the fucking atrocities committed by Mengele? Like... seriously?

No, I compared their emotional responses or lack thereof.

While the fact that he "sort of snickered when we saw that [the spider] was sticking to [his] muddy running shoe and half alive" is a bit... off, that's still a really extreme comparison.

 

[JoJo]

As far as we know, insects aren't sentient, so I can't see a moral reason why it'd be wrong to kill one. Personally though, I think bugs are pretty cool and so I won't set out to kill one unless it's something like a mosquito which intends to make me it's next meal.

So whether something is ok to kill depends on whether or not we consider it sentient, bearing in mind changing human views on sentience and limitations and bias of the human perspective.

Even accepting this terrible basis for life-or-death morality, what about evolution? Every living species could develop into a species that you would describe as "sentient". But if a creature is killed, he or she provides less aid in that development and any such death of an insect could be the very death that prevents such evolution.

Considering it anything other than wrong to kill creatures less powerful than ourselves with no ability to fight back is nothing other than a justification for sociopathy.

People might quickly change their tune if a powerful alien species decided humans weren't sentient (they had no proof of human sentience, which is all that matters to them) and randomly squashed humans. Sure, many of the ones squashed would be poor Africans that noone cares about anyway, but what if Stephen Hawking got squashed, or your favorite game developer? Your grieving would be no more witnessed by the Amazing Alien Species than your sentience.

It's part of sentience itself to fully appreciate the world and living creatures within it. Perhaps the aliens who would squash us have a bit of a point in not recognizing our own sentience.

Yes, sentience is a fairly good measure for whether some sort of morality applies. Do you feel obligated to act morally to your phone, or a rock? No, of course not, because they can't respond, they don't have a mind in the first place. A non-sentiment living being is exactly the same, they're ultimately just a self-replicating arrangement of molecules. So are we of course, but we have the 'ghost in the machine', something which is aware of it's own existence and can do unto others as it would like done to itself. As a biological sciences graduate, I can confirm that the general scientific consensus is that insects are not sentient. Obviously we are not infallible and if convincing evidence was presented to show that they were, I would change my views accordingly. I won't comment further on your alien analogy since it relies on the assumption that bugs are sentient in a way we don't understand and your evolution point is a little bizarre to be honest. Putting aside the unlikelihood of true intelligence evolving in an insect (for reasons I can explain in more detail if you really wish to hear), an equivalent argument would be that you should never use contraception and have sex whenever possible, because there's a small chance one of the many offspring produced would be the person who found a cure for cancer. Obviously this is a silly line of argument.

Anyhow, my question to you is what would you suggest as an alternative red line for when morality applies or not if not sentience? If you don't harm anything living at-all then you must have a very limited diet considering plants are just as alive as bugs and indeed, your very existence is fatal for the unfortunate microbes who end up in your stomach.