Does Dark = Good?

[daveman247]

snip

To each their own man

 

[Soviet Heavy]

The number of people in this thread who don't actually understand what goes on in 40k makes me sad.

Most fitting Captcha ever: "gothic church"

Excuse me? I've been pointing out how Dan Abnett not only uses the 40K formula, but how he also improves on it.

 

[AngleWyrm]

Van Helsing [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/van_helsing/] - Why, at the very end of the movie, did Writer/Director Stephen Sommers [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Sommers] randomly kill off the leading lady, Anna Valerious (Kate Beckinsale [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Beckinsale])? I was suddenly ripped out of the movie, going WTF!? I had so wanted the relationship to be like the one he made in The Mummy [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1087270-mummy/], between Rick O'Connel (Brendan Fraser [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Fraser]) and Evelyn Carnarvon (Rachel Weisz [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Weisz]). But instead Sommers just aborted their friendship with the cliched meme of the loner gunman riding off into the sunset, for no apparent reason.

Dark for the sake of being edgy/artsy/whatever is not necessarily a good thing.

 

[Oly J]

Recently I've been noticing a trend of things to becoming dark.

You can see this in a lot of recent media - the last of the Star Wars prequels, the later Harry Potter films, and of course the ending of Mass Effect 3. You can often converse with someone and ask about how good something is, and they'll be like "Well it was the darkest of the films." Is Dark equated with good though?

The later Harry Potter films were darker, but I definitely preferred the older ones with their childlike charm. Give me A New Hope over Revenge of the Sith anyday!

You can see this in videogames too - Dragon Age: Origins was a fairly standard save-the-world fantasy game which was great (and not particularly dark, had difficult decisions though), and then Dragon Age 2 went all dark with torture and slavery and necrophilia and stuff, but it was definitely not the better game. Same with Mass Effect, the first two games were standard space opera, but then the third shoves out an out-of-place "dark" ending down our throats.

Lord of the Rings wasn't dark but its a timeless classic and the films are great - I doubt it would have improved by an ending where Sauron wins and murders everyone, and the last film consisted of rape of Elven women by Orcs and a brooding suicidal Legolas.

Not saying "dark" isn't bad, The Witcher 2 was a great game but it was handled in a mature fashion, as opposed to just shoving in blood and darkness and sex and stuff - it was mature which meant it could handle the "dark" subject matter easily. This runs parallel to 40k which is so grimdark that it's pretty much a self parody of itself, the lack of seriousness in 40k makes the grimdark better.

So yeah, do you think there's a tendency in media to equate dark with good, and therefore make everything dark? Do you even think dark is good?Do you enjoy dark stories or less dark ones?

I do see the trend, and I find it rediculous, does dark=good?...no...of course not...what a rediculous notion, lol nothing can be good solely because of the tone of the story or any one thing at all, if something is good it's because of the sum total of every part, the story, characters involved and a thousand other variables, all coming together and working with chemistry the tone is just one thing, so no, dark cannot equal good, unlike the bird that equals the word...I'm sorry...truly I am...but it had to be done

but yeah I think darkness can work, but not if it's shoved in their for it's own sake

 

[Atmos Duality]

No. It doesn't.
"Dark" does not equal "Mature" either, if the argument is using that qualifier.
"Mature" storytelling requires strong understanding of the "dark" subject material; not simply of its consequences.

(ASIDE: this is why "rape" so rarely works in storytelling. Shock value in itself does not make a point. Context is needed, yet the context provided, if any, is usually secondary to the act itself in fiction.)

Watchmen is "mature" not because of its graphic violence or vulgarity, but how it uses it. A child will not likely grasp the critique on cold-war society (or as a broader criticism on the nature of nations and mankind), or any of the philosophical questions involving Dr. Manhattan.

To claim that "Dark = Good" would mean that the movie Violent Shit* is good because The Dark Knight was good.

Conversely: "Happy ending" does mean "immature/kiddie" either. Even in Lord of the Rings, Frodo Baggins was emotionally scarred and traumatized for years after defeating Sauron.

Yet, the series ended on a decidedly happy ending.

 

[Unsilenced]

Everything is in execution.


As much as I'm a huge fan of bleak/nihilistic stories, there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING more pathetic than a failed attempt to be "dark."

"OMFGDEADBABIES!!!111ONEONENOENOENENONNENOEN" (Looking at you, Dead Space)

 

[applesandoranges]

edit

 

[Rheinmetall]

For me, yes dark is pretty much good. The question is which developers can create a truly dark game, and not only in the surface dark. For example from the modern games, I consider Silent Hill: Homecoming as dark; it's authentically tragic and pessimistic in every way.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I call it the Dark Knight effect, now even Micky Mouse can't be dark and moody enough!

Strangly enough I'm playing through the Jak and Daxter Trilogy at the moment and theres a pretty big change in tone from the first and second game, I'm not sure I like it.

It gets better, trust me. While Jak does turn into a misanthropic jakass (c wat I did thar lol), he does become more compelling as a character. And if Jak 2 gets you down, Jak 3 and Jak X Combat Racing are more lighthearted. They balance out the moody prick with more humor, and 3 in particular gives Jak something to fight for.

Spoiler: Yeah, but then...

Jak finds out who his father is, right as he's dying in Jak's arms...

Although I forgive the game for the absolutely HILARIOUS ending.

The point I was trying to make is that Jak 3 manages to temper both humor and drama pretty damn well, and overall comes off as a more tonally balanced game than Renegade.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

No, of course not. If it's done well it can be good, but making a property dark, grim, and serious does not automatically make it so. Esp. if said property is usually light and even a big comical, such a drastic shift of tone could ruin it. Same is true going the other way, consistency of tone is always key.

Like any tone, it can be good or bad. I do agree that tonal shifts in the middle of a series frequently don't work very well.

Yeah, what he said. It's all about being consistent.

 

[ThreeWords]

Dark is fucking good, because it's fucking mature. There's too much fucking shit that's fucking light out there, and it fucking needs to stop with that shit. I mean, fuck.

A bit of serious fucking language really ups the fucking quality of the shit, in my bastard opinion. If it offends the fucking ears of childish little shits, it must be fucking mature, shit?

 

[Soundchekz]

Dark =/= Good. Dark is a stylistic choice and it fits some movies/games better than others. Trying to force gritty dark realism onto something just to make it edgy doesn't work. Some things need to be light and some things need to be dark. The finding the correct tone for something is half the battle. *The more you know*

 

[Erttheking]

It CAN be good but it's not NECESSARILY good. The Dark Knight was dark and it was very good. Mass Effect 3's ending was dark and...I didn't like it. Personally I prefer stories with a bleak setting with some healthy humor sprinkled throughout it and with a hard earned but satisfying happy ending. For more, click the link below.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarnYourHappyEnding

 

[Da Orky Man]

I tend to find myself preferring darker and edgier games/movies.tv shows than happier ones. For example, I used to watch a fair bit of Star Trek. Still do when i can, but I'm currently making myself through the newest Battlestar Galactica. Just try comparing them:

In Star Trek, should the Enterprise take someone prisoner, they will generally treat them well, food, warmth,overall quite comfortable.

Now, I recently watched the episode 'Pegasus' in BSG. Spoiler for slight graphic description:

Spoiler

Many times through the series, cylon prisoners are beaten, starved, nearly drowned, the whoole shebang. The, in 'Pegasus' a prisoner undergoes forced rape, and another is expressly implied to have undergone it, and asks to die.

Yeah, it's dark.

 

[wintercoat]

It's funny, the dark, moody trend started because people wanted to break away from the 'you saved the princess! The kingdom is saved!' puppies and rainbows that we were practically forcefed over the past couple decades, but now it's becoming the norm, so what happens now? I say we go slapstick!

 

[370999]

To parrot others, it depends how well it's done, the intended tone and the like.

Now personally I think a grim and dark setting can be awesome if pulled off well, but that is really hard to do.

 

[AngleWyrm]

...this is why "rape" so rarely works in storytelling. Shock value in itself does not make a point. Context is needed, yet the context provided, if any, is usually secondary to the act itself in fiction.

The original black and white Straw Dogs [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/straw-dogs-2011/comments.php?reviewid=2046774] (1971, not the new one) did a great job of portraying something resembling sexual assault, rape and infidelity with an ex-boyfriend all entangled into one. Well worth a look. But the main point of that slow and boring movie -- that a 98 pound weakling fights back -- was extremely lame.

The recent version of Girl with the Dragon Tattoo [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_girl_with_the_dragon_tattoo/] also created a credible scene of sexual abuse by a hideous bully. Very creepy. But again, it was used as the principle McGuffin for a vengeance flick.

 

[Gatx]

You can see this in a lot of recent media - the last of the Star Wars prequels, the later Harry Potter films, and of course the ending of Mass Effect 3. You can often converse with someone and ask about how good something is, and they'll be like "Well it was the darkest of the films." Is Dark equated with good though?

Let's not forget about Empire Strikes Back, often considered the BEST out of the original trilogy (and by extension out of all 6 Star Wars films) is also the darkest of the three, but that might also have something to do with the fact that George Lucas didn't direct it. My personal favorite has always been Return of the Jedi though (where weirdly enough Luke becomes grim dark but then in come the Ewoks).

 

[Atmos Duality]

Dark is fucking good, because it's fucking mature. There's too much fucking shit that's fucking light out there, and it fucking needs to stop with that shit. I mean, fuck.

A bit of serious fucking language really ups the fucking quality of the shit, in my bastard opinion. If it offends the fucking ears of childish little shits, it must be fucking mature, shit?

*chuckles*

Why am I suddenly thinking of the Boondock Saints?

The original black and white Straw Dogs [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/straw-dogs-2011/comments.php?reviewid=2046774] (1971, not the new one) did a great job of portraying something resembling sexual assault, rape and infidelity with an ex-boyfriend all entangled into one. Well worth a look. But the main point of that slow and boring movie -- that a 98 pound weakling fights back -- was extremely lame.

The recent version of Girl with the Dragon Tattoo [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_girl_with_the_dragon_tattoo/] also created a credible scene of sexual abuse by a hideous bully. Very creepy. But again, it was used as the principle McGuffin for a vengeance flick.

I've had Straw Dogs recommended to me before. Then again, the one doing the recommendation has a penchant for movies on the "sadistic" side; and not the kind of "sadistic" that lands films on Mystery Science Theater.

 

[Dastardly]

Recently I've been noticing a trend of things to becoming dark.

It's a trend in all art.

Art is about expression, usually regarding emotion. People don't generally need to "work through" positive emotions... and audiences often don't want art from happy people, because it's just a reminder of how happy everyone else is. Adults are by-and-large jaded, so if something is happy, it's viewed as naive or shallow. Or geared toward children, which is essentially the same thing.That's why more songs are about break-ups than weddings.

Since a lot of the most stirring art has been about dealing with "hard" feelings, rather than "easy" ones, a lot of folks carry this to its seemingly logical conclusion -- that all art must deal with hard feelings to be artistically valid. It's not so much "Dark = Good," as much as it is "Dark = Deep."

On a deeper level, however, there is a bit of validity to the idea. Emotions are stirred by conflict. Happiness is usually a result of some need being fulfilled, meaning it had to be unfulfilled first. It's that conflict between what we need and what we have that moves our emotions, and gives the happiness its impact.

That's why a lot of deeper artistic themes are a bit dark, because they create conflict in our minds... but I can agree that too many folks think that dark is automatically deep, and that dark is the only way to be deep.