Does Dark = Good?

[Atmos Duality]

Shaddup, you mother- Jesus -fucking Christ!

"Hey 'fuck-ass'! Get me a beer!"

Yeah, a bit of restraint on the profanity would have elevated that movie considerably in my eyes; not because I'm a prude (quite the opposite) but because it comes across as being immature and distracting. The bar-scene, well it's a bar full of men on St. Patrick's Day profanity is half the vocabulary.

But everything after that...it's distracting and annoying. Not really funny or edgy.

It's like when a young adult realizes that nobody is going to tell on them if s/he curses and can't help but feel free to liberally exercise their new-found privilege.

 

[Waffle_Man]

"Dark" isn't necessarily good so much as it's conducive to grounding something, which in turn makes it easier to believe. However, there is a big problem of people trying to mash it together with heavy stylizations that cause thematic contradictions, making it all feel forced and blase.

Truth be told, making things "dark" doesn't necessarily make something either mature or grounded. All it does is widen the number of possible events that can happen.

 

[Terramax]

I miss all the colourful, innocent Sega games. Sure they make the odd colourful titles now, but 10 years ago even their 'mature' action games like Panzer Dragoon Orta and Gun Valkyrie were beautiful despite their deeper stories, but now we have stuff like Bayonetta and Yakuza.

Studio Ghibli films often had rather dark plots, but were still beautifully vibrant and colourful to watch, and it's never done them any harm. I don't see why everything should have to look like Resident Evil to be taken seriously.

 

[Theron Julius]

Well don't you know? True art is angsty. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsAngsty] How could it possible be good if it's not dark?

 

[Torrasque]

I haven't really noticed this trend. I think you may be mistaking serious for dark?
Take Harry Potter for instance. The books and films were serious because Voldemort came back and was in power, so of course it is going to be dark. So it isn't dark because it is leaning towards being dark and brooding, but because it was a serious problem. In Harry Potter's case, it was the 'darkness before the sun rises' kind of thing that people will always be suckers for, it is a part of good writing: make things REALLY shitty so things get tense, then make them positive to contrast them with how shitty things were.

As some have said, that "dark" motif that you seem to understand as a trend, is likely there as a way to gather a larger audience and possibly to distinguish the setting as a serious setting rather than a childish or "light" setting. I don't like specifically dark/serious settings in movies/books/anime, because I like silly and light-hearted stuff more. No matter what it is, zombies, war, post-apocalypse, I prefer light-hearted stuff more. Maybe because I like comedies more, maybe because I don't like taking anything too seriously. /shrug

 

[Nieroshai]

To be fair to Mass Effect, they hinted from game 1 that the Reapers would wreak havok on a galactic scale once they arrived, and 1 and 2 were about trying to stop them from arriving. Couple that with one death of your choice in the first game, and from 0 to your full squad dying depending on how completionist you were, I think a dark tone was the entire point. The third game faithfully took the exact tone that the Reapers arriving would cause: darker tone, panicking citizens, casualties, and more just made sense. And the feel of hopelessness at the end between being hit by the Reaper laser and watching the earth burn and slumping down in despair because the conduit wasn't working felt very necessary to me. Sure, it would've been cool to see Shepard walk out alive, but this was the culmination of setting Shepard up as a sacrificial lamb from the beginning. Getting the mission done no matter what is what Shepard's paradigm has been for the whole series.

EDIT: I also hate the new ad-captchas. Seriously?

 

[Ieyke]

Warhammer 40k is a good example of ways 'dark' can go. Dan Abnett can write a dark story well while some other authors just aren't good writers and just make it "dark"

Abnett actually improves on the 40K formula by not making everything excessively dark. Back before Games Workshop got their heads stuck so far up their asses, the insane darkness of 40K was used as parody not unlike the Judge Dredd comics. Nowadays, they take their darkness way too seriously without any hint of irony.

Dan Abnett sidesteps this by lightening the mood. It's still a depressing situation to be sure, but he remembers the most important part of a dark storyline: Hope.

There is a reason that 28 Days Later is my favorite horror film. By all means, the events that happen in the film are terrifying and tragic, but the characters are so endearing because they believe that they can and will overcome the disaster. And when they do, it is so satisfying. The Imperium actually functions in Abnett's 40K. It gives humanity a reason to fight, even if it is misguided.

The hope that they can overcome the challenges that humanity faces is a driving theme that keeps you invested in the characters. That despite the horrific nature of the universe, good people can and still do exist.

Thant is the same reason mass effect is compelling along with the characters. Despite the reapers being unstoppable, there is a glimmer of hope, no matter how bad the situation is.

Indeed. To go back to the 40K example: Ollanius Pius. Back before Games Workshop got their pauldron fetish on, Ollanius Pius was the most badass figure in all of 40K. Who was he? A single human who stood up to Horus in the darkest hour.

He has armor the equivalent or cardboard and a glorified laser pointer. And he fearlessly stood between the Emperor and Horus, two literal GODS, to stand up for what was right. He was obliterated instantly, but his sacrifice gave the Emperor clarity for two things.

#1: Horus was so far gone that he would be petty enough to stomp on someone who wasn't even a threat.
#2: Ollanius represented the hope of humanity. That someone so small and insignificant would lay down his life for what he believed in, standing against impossible odds and facing total annihilation was proof that humanity deserved its place in the galaxy.

The point of Ollanius's sacrifice was that it gave the Emperor the resolve to keep fighting.

All of that was thrown out by Games Workshop when they replaced Pius with a Terminator and then a Custodes, changing the Emperor's attack from resolve to getting a second wind while the Supersoldier kepts Horus busy. Completely missing the point of what Pius's sacrifice meant.

Dan Abnett brought Ollanius Pius back. He's back in the canon as of the latest Horus Heresy book, and I hope he gets to do his original sacrifice once again.

You've missed it entirely.
Oll may have been a hero to the humans, but in his original format he meant nothing to The Emperor. His death at the hands of Horus would've been the death of just one more human. A psychotically brave human, but just some human no less. Beyond that though, Oll's death made no sense since his very presence aboard the Vengeful Spirit was inexplicable. There was simply no reason whatsoever for him to be there.

The death of an Imperial Fists Terminator made sense in the fact that Rogal Dorn's Terminators had joined The Emperor, Sanguinius, and Dorn in teleporting aboard the Vengeful Spirit, but his death would have been basically equally meaningless to The Emperor as Oll's.

The death of an Adeptus Custode Terminator is the ideal version of the story. The Custodes go everywhere The Emperor goes, and thus it makes perfect sense for him to be aboard the Vengeful Spirit.
The Emperor was reluctant to believe that the Horus he knew and loved, his son, his most trusted general, was gone and irrecoverable, DESPITE Horus attacking him and Sanguinius laying dead at his feet, because The Emperor had only seen the effects of Horus' corruption and never saw the corrupt and twisted thing Horus had become in action for himself. He allowed Horus to swat him around, trying to find a way to get through to him.
The Custode Terminator one of The Emperor's constant and fiercely loyal companions for decades or even centuries, enters the room. One of the few beings in the galaxy who The Emperor might truly call a friend. This warrior enters the chamber with the Warmaster and fearlessly attacks the Arch-Traitor, only for Horus to instantly obliterate him from existence with a quick attack and maniacal glee. That Horus, his son, could so callously and unhesitatingly slaughter such a loyal and noble warrior, his bodyguard, his friend...THAT is what snapped The Emperor out of it and made him realize that the Horus he knew was truly lost to him. THAT is what made him annihilate the Warmaster's soul and cause the Chaos Gods that were possessing him to flee in terror.

It wasn't a matter of Horus being petty enough to destroy someone who was no threat, it was Horus' willingness to destroy someone whose worth The Emperor was personally familiar with. It was just a stone's throw away from being the same exact thing as if The Emperor had actually personally witnessed Horus murder Sanguinius. The Primarchs may be his sons and generals out leading his armies in the galaxy, but the Custodes are his constant companions and friends.
With the exception of maybe Horus and Dorn, The Emperor probably wasn't nearly so familiar with his Primarchs as he was with The Companions.

Ollanius Pius' new place in the fluff may actually earn him a reason for his death to matter to The Emperor, should he find himself aboard Horus' bridge somehow.
If he is, as some of us suspect, one of the handful of remaining Shamans (along with John Grammaticus and Malcador the Sigillite), then he may be among both the truest family and oldest friends of The Emperor in all of history. THAT would mean his death aboard the Vengeful Spirit would be significant to The Emperor, but it still doesn't explain his presence there.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Snip

I'd argue that that is just another way of looking at it, much like how every faction in 40K can be interpreted differently.

The way I always saw it, Pius being there and laying down his life held more weight than a supersoldier doing the same thing. To me, it not only gave a glimmer of hope to Humanity, but it was the sacrifice of someone a complete stranger to the Emperor that made him realize just how important it was that Emprah should win.

The difference between a buddy laying down his life for the Emperor and a complete stranger is really what divides it for me. Fighting to avenge a buddy makes the Emprah out to be more of a ponce and a jackass, and it is probably more true to the universe that way.

Fighting for the sacrifice of a complete stranger and all the symbolism behind it had more emotional impact for me, but it seems a little too ideal for the setting.

It's all in the way you look at it.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

I figure we'll eventually get over this Grimdark fetish of sorts, but it won't really be gradual. Just as we more or less sharply veered into pretty angsty stuff over the last thirteen years or so, we'll eventually get tired of it all and start slapping bubblegum happiness everywhere.

I know, it's a little cynical on my part, but I tend to think that best-selling mediums don't thrive on subtlety. They need and want the biggest immediate emotional impact, ergo the Disney ending or the general tone of the Warhammer 40K universe.

Oh, and I absolutely agree about the 40K universe having space for depth, but most of what comes out of Games Workshop and the companion novels is just more of the same murky sludge of despair and fury. I figure that any chapter that doesn't go "EAT, SLEEP, CODEX, WAKE UP, CODEX, EAT, CODEX, FIGHT, CODEX, SLEEP, CODEX, WAKE UP, CODEX" could offer some emotional leeway and set the stage for more human characters - but the bulk of the universe isn't focused on that.

40K is and probably always will be Power Armor Porn interspersed with fairly occasional moments of lucidity. It mostly depends on the studio's writers, really, and how willing they are to break out of the basic juvenile mold of "War all the time".

Captcha: van surfing
Because Car Surfing isn't extreme and reckless enough for my brosephs.

 

[Ieyke]

Snip

I'd argue that that is just another way of looking at it, much like how every faction in 40K can be interpreted differently.

The way I always saw it, Pius being there and laying down his life held more weight than a supersoldier doing the same thing. To me, it not only gave a glimmer of hope to Humanity, but it was the sacrifice of someone a complete stranger to the Emperor that made him realize just how important it was that Emprah should win.

The difference between a buddy laying down his life for the Emperor and a complete stranger is really what divides it for me. Fighting to avenge a buddy makes the Emprah out to be more of a ponce and a jackass, and it is probably more true to the universe that way.

Fighting for the sacrifice of a complete stranger and all the symbolism behind it had more emotional impact for me, but it seems a little too ideal for the setting.

It's all in the way you look at it.

It's not that The Emperor is a ponce/jackass, it's simply that he has perspective on what a single human life actually means in the greater scheme of things. You have to look at it this way, by the time of the Horus Heresy, The Emperor has already experienced something like 380,039,000 years of life (minimally....despite being only ~231,000 years old....or ~39,000 years old, depending on how you're counting). This guy has seen it all. He has seen countless humans die by every method. He's seen heroes, cowards, tyrants, greed, selflessness, etc etc etc. A single man stepping up against impossible odds and dying for a gloriously noble cause is nothing he hasn't seen a million times. What The Emperor has had few and far between of are friends who last any amount of time. People who have truly incredible power and the discipline never to abuse it over looooong periods and stand the tests of time like no ordinary man ever could.
His Shaman brothers and sisters, if any survived independent of him (Grammaticus?, Malcador?, Pius?) would've been the very few "humans" that could've sustained any meaningful relationships with up until he created the Space Marines, Custodes, and Primarchs. After all, what is a 50-100 year long life to a being who has already experienced 3,800,390x that span of time. Days must go by in a blink. Years must seem like hours to him.
Despite their much longer lives, his Thunder Warriors and Space Marines are nothing to get attached to, he created them to serve and fully expects them to die violently in battle. The Primarchs would've been the first of his creations he could actually be close to and expect them to keep surviving and not grow old and die....but they were made to lead the Marines, always out in the galaxy at the forefront of the Great Crusade.
This leaves the Adeptus Custodes, his personal bodyguards. More powerful and longer lived than his Marines, and intended to always be at his side (well, the 200 Custodes of The Companions, anyways). These are warriors of titanic physical and mental ability, compared to humans. Men who are only a few steps away from him all day, every day. They witness basically everything that he experiences and does, and they will unwaveringly stand by him until they die...likely in an effort to protect him, a man who basically needs no protecting. If The Emperor were to interact with other creatures as friends and come to admire and respect them, the Custodes would easily be among those who would earn it.
He KNOWS these men. Their loyalty, their bravery, their discipline, their devotion, their personalities.
To have one of THEM die is to take away from The Emperor one of the very few things in the galaxy that he has a short supply of, trusted, respected, familiar, friends.
THAT is how you hit The Emperor where he feels it. THAT is why Horus' betrayal hurt him so bad. Why he was so loathe to believe that Horus was irredeemable. Aside from maybe Malcador, Horus was probably the person closest to The Emperor. His most trusted. His right hand. His family and son, no less. If The Emperor were to ever finally step down from personally ruling the galaxy, his Primarch sons would've been the leaders to take his place with Horus at their head.

One selfless human dying for The Emperor? Certainly The Emperor would probably make sure his noble sacrifice was noted (simply because not much slips past his notice, and he seems like the type to make sure credit is given to those who earn it), but it wouldn't be a deed that would break through The Emperor's utter denial at the idea that he had lost Horus irrevocably to betrayal, of all horrific things.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

What kind of ending (happy, dark, or edgy) shouldn't be the main focus of the ending. An ending that is both satisfying and delivers closure to the narrative is what constitutes a fitting ending.

 

[TehCookie]

Making things dark makes it appeal to an older audience because they think it's more mature. That way you can completely take a dude dressed up as a bat and chasing a guy wearing clown makeup seriously and say it's for adults. I don't like that kind of dark so I can't explain why people like that more than a dude running around in spandex with a little boy fighting crime. Though dark being a broad term I like cheerfully dark stories. It can be a dark story that breaks up the tension from time to time with some comedy, or just a plain psychopathic story where there is so many things that are morally wrong and disturbing in it but it is still upbeat and bright.