Does free will exist?

[Spectral Dragon]

A thought struck me while reading the replies on the thread about what makes us human. A few mentioned free will. But lately I've been wondering if that really exists.

Considering biology, society, language and history affect all of us, do we really have free will as such, or are we governed by everything around us? After all, we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive. And then it's our body that decides if we want something spicy, sweet etc.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

(Yes, I realise this thread's been done before, but not for quite some time. This thread again, but with new opinions, hopefully.)

 

[Something Amyss]

Probably not. Everything was set in motion billions of years ago.

Which means I was inevitably going to post this.

Pudding.

Kittties.

Rainbow Brite.

>.>

 

[SageRuffin]

Well... nothing compelled me to click and respond to this topic outside of genuine curiosity and a want to answer... so I'd say yes.

 

[JesterRaiin]

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

Nope. There's no such thing as free will. Everything, every of our choices if determined by our configuration and surroundings.

 

[Princess Rose]

A thought struck me while reading the replies on the thread about what makes us human. A few mentioned free will. But lately I've been wondering if that really exists.

Considering biology, society, language and history affect all of us, do we really have free will as such, or are we governed by everything around us? After all, we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive. And then it's our body that decides if we want something spicy, sweet etc.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

(Yes, I realise this thread's been done before, but not for quite some time. This thread again, but with new opinions, hopefully.)

Of course free will exists. The fact that we can ask that and question it is the greatest evidence that it is the case.

After all, you CAN starve yourself to death. You CAN choose to not eat. You'll be really hungry, but you can choose to not eat until you die. Monks have done so. It's not the best example, perhaps, but it does address your question above.

Are we influenced by everything around us? Of course. But, while that does affect our psyche, we can still choose to go against those urges. We can choose which urges to embrace, and how we embrace them.

 

[Spectral Dragon]

By asking the question, do we not provide the answer?

Not necessarily, as this is in my inquisitive nature. I never chose to want to ask questions, but it's part of who I am regardless. I also asked this because of another thread, so both personality and outward effects made me do it. I'm not sure I had any choice in the matter.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

A thought struck me while reading the replies on the thread about what makes us human. A few mentioned free will. But lately I've been wondering if that really exists.

Considering biology, society, language and history affect all of us, do we really have free will as such, or are we governed by everything around us? After all, we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive. And then it's our body that decides if we want something spicy, sweet etc.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

(Yes, I realise this thread's been done before, but not for quite some time. This thread again, but with new opinions, hopefully.)

Of course free will exists. The fact that we can ask that and question it is the greatest evidence that it is the case.

After all, you CAN starve yourself to death. You CAN choose to not eat. You'll be really hungry, but you can choose to not eat until you die. Monks have done so. It's not the best example, perhaps, but it does address your question above.

Are we influenced by everything around us? Of course. But, while that does affect our psyche, we can still choose to go against those urges. We can choose which urges to embrace, and how we embrace them.

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

 

[Sight Unseen]

Barring the intervention of some kind of totalitarian force, yes we do have free will to act as we wish. We just usually have a set of societal and personal restrictions imposed on us, however we don't HAVE to follow them.

 

[Estocavio]

I have no Free Choice.

*Closes Tab*

 

[DanDanikov]

Depends what you mean by free will. Ultimately, choice has to either come from a deterministic configuration of the brain/universe, or random fluctuations in it, neither which give 'free' will. The third option is the soul as some kind of... core being that is you and someone imparts choice into the universe, but then the question becomes how does the soul have choice?

Ultimately it's a moot question as, regardless whether you have free will or not, what are the consequences for one or the other? Practically we operate on the basis that everyone is culpable/responsible for most of their actions (excepting extenuating circumstances- drugs, alcohol, insanity), and can be considered to have free will with regards to being culpable- even if you could prove philosophically or otherwise that there is no such thing as free will, that would not change the operating practicalities of treating people as if they have free will.

 

[SidingWithTheEnemy]

Yes.

My Bat-Mod-Hammer-Detection-gadget tells me that a "Warning" is near! That's a typical low content comment folks, right there. Be careful.

Back on Topic:
Some random internet dictonary says:

a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined
b. the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory Compare determinism

So it's all boiled down to determinism vs. nondeterminism.

Well, let's see, at some point I sometimes make some quite irrational choices that I can't justify by simply taking all biological and social impulses into consideration. Either I have free will or I haven't considered that specific mind-controlling switch that made me do that decision in the first place. Since the complexity of these external influences is close to infinity I deduce that
a) I have free will or
b) I'm not clairvoyant or ominiscent enough to find the determining socio-biological factor.

Honestly, I'll tend towards a)

 

[JoJo]

Yes. Free will doesn't mean that there are no limits on what we can do, we still have to eat and drink if we want to live for example, but we all make choices regularly. I choose to answer this question right now for example, though that isn't to say that our past experiences and personality don't affect our choices at-all.

 

[Vivi22]

Well... nothing compelled me to click and respond to this topic outside of genuine curiosity and a want to answer... so I'd say yes.

The electro-chemical reactions in your brain, which are governed by the laws of physics determined you were going to click this thread.

For their to be free will there would have to either be some random element to the Universe, or our thoughts and feelings would have to be governed by laws which are separate from the rest of the Universe. I don't see how the former is possible, and the latter is simply absurd, so no, we don't have free will, but we do operate as though we do because what other choice is there when faced with such an illusion?

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

This comment at first was too aggressive, i apologise.

Instead i offer, how can we have rules and laws to the universe if our seemingly random anomilous brain can break them? How can we predict anything, even throwing a ball, or the trajectory of a satalite, if our brains themselves can randomly do things at any given time?

 

[Wormthong]

not unless there is some form of random somewhere. (which we havent found yet and is highly unlikely to ever be found) thats why i believe that the only way to make technology significant is by making a truly random number generator. something that can say spit out a number between one and ten and not have it based off of anything. once we have that we as a civilization will prob be at our peak becouse that is almost the deffinition of playing god. changing the set course that has been the same for all of time.

 

[Lukeje]

The ignorance of what determinalism is on this thread is staggering. It is not following "societies" rules. Its accepting physics is a fact. And that your brain follows it. Give my any scenario and i can hypothetically make a computer to predict what will happen. You throw a ball, you fly a spac eship, your brain releases a hormone, i can hypothetically track the motion of every brain cell you have, every message it sends. You are a machine, a slave to physics, accept it.

Quantum mechanics kind of slipped you by, huh?

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

The ignorance of what determinalism is on this thread is staggering. It is not following "societies" rules. Its accepting physics is a fact. And that your brain follows it. Give my any scenario and i can hypothetically make a computer to predict what will happen. You throw a ball, you fly a spac eship, your brain releases a hormone, i can hypothetically track the motion of every brain cell you have, every message it sends. You are a machine, a slave to physics, accept it.

Quantum mechanics kind of slipped you by, huh?

You mean uncertainty theory? Ill grant that this along with the schrodingers cat paradox does imply we cannot 100% predict every action, but the fact that an atom can bouce one way or another depending on what we observe doesnt grant free will. It only means you are a slave to a few possible actions, none of which are in your control.

 

[SageRuffin]

Well... nothing compelled me to click and respond to this topic outside of genuine curiosity and a want to answer... so I'd say yes.

The electro-chemical reactions in your brain, which are governed by the laws of physics determined you were going to click this thread.

For their to be free will there would have to either be some random element to the Universe, or our thoughts and feelings would have to be governed by laws which are separate from the rest of the Universe. I don't see how the former is possible, and the latter is simply absurd, so no, we don't have free will, but we do operate as though we do because what other choice is there when faced with such an illusion?

...

Yeah, I'm gonna go back over here now...

 

[Princess Rose]

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

**googles it**

**laughs in your face**

You're kidding, right? Right?

If you aren't kidding, you clearly have no understanding of what you just googled. It's ancient philosophy, packaged in the terms of physics. Even the physicists who have theorized this don't actually believe it - it's one of those "in a perfect universe, you could etc" thing that admits that this is NOT something that actually works in THIS universe.

Also "atoms bouncing in my brain" have nothing to do with what they're talking about. Radiation from the big bang isn't involved. They're saying that if you could fully measure the current particles moving about in someone's head (ie, the electrical impulses of the brain), then you could predict what they are thinking.

That isn't predestination - that's mind-reading.

Anyway, it fails due to Schrodinger's Cat - as soon as you measure it, you change it, and thus render the measurement (and predictions) pointless.

So yeah, stop trying to use physics - and faulty physics at that - to argue philosophy. It just makes you look silly.

Edit: Since you apparently aren't joking, here's why you're an idiot:

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

You cannot create electricity? Huh. I think the Hoover Dam might have some issues with that.

Your brain turns energy from the food you eat INTO electricity. The same way a the Hoover dam turns potential energy from the water in the electricity.

Random bouncing atoms don't cause thought - your brain turning glucose into electricity does. So yes, your brain creates electricity. With PHYSICS. Not magic.

It staggers me how you can think you know anything about this issue when you don't even understand basic biology.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Determinalism, nothing "magic" happens in the universe, only physics. 100% prediactable physics. So i can predict the motion, reaction and moves of your brain cells and predict every one of your actions. Google it.

You can "choose" to starve to death. But the atom that hits the receptor that sends the pulse to reject all food was set in motion a billion billion years ago when the big bang happened.

Honestly unless you are a fundamental christian and believe all science is lies i dont understand how you can believe in free will. How does "random" happen in your brain? DId that electrical charge in yoru brain just HAPPEN? Did you just create energy? Well done, all thermodynamics is a lie! Unless you render all physics moot, you cannot just change the way an atom bounces in your brain by magic, you cant create electricity from nothing in your mind to "choose" something.

**googles it**

**laughs in your face**

You're kidding, right? Right?

If you aren't kidding, you clearly have no understanding of what you just googled. It's ancient philosophy, packaged in the terms of physics. Even the physicists who have theorized this don't actually believe it - it's one of those "in a perfect universe, you could etc" thing that admits that this is NOT something that actually works in THIS universe.

Also "atoms bouncing in my brain" have nothing to do with what they're talking about. Radiation from the big bang isn't involved. They're saying that if you could fully measure the current particles moving about in someone's head (ie, the electrical impulses of the brain), then you could predict what they are thinking.

That isn't predestination - that's mind-reading.

Anyway, it fails due to Schrodinger's Cat - as soon as you measure it, you change it, and thus render the measurement (and predictions) pointless.

So yeah, stop trying to use physics - and faulty physics at that - to argue philosophy. It just makes you look silly.

Im not kidding. Explain to me simply how, without the use of a god or magic force, you can randomly generate me a number from 1 to 10. The synapse that fires does so logically and from the reaction of molecules in your head. Does a molecule just change direction for no reason? Does electrity just become generated from nothing in your brain? All of which are moving under the laws of physics. Ill grant you schrodingers cat, but all that means is that even if radiation is a random force you have several possibilities of action, none of which you can actively choose.