Doki Doki literature club killed someone

[Elijin]

One of the things that bugs me the most about this is that everyone keeps saying 'It says it's for older audience, and warns of dark themes, horror themes and adult content.' as some sort of "well duh" moment.

It's an anime VN. This is the content warning:

"This game is not suitable for children or those who are easily disturbed."

These are the relevant steam tags:
Psychological Horror
Anime
Horror
Dating Sim
Dark
Gore
Violent
Sexual Content

You tell me an anime VN is suggested for older audiences, with those tags and warnings, Im not going to go 'Oh, must be about self harm and suidice'. Im gonna say "Probably some weird sex shit, tentacles and demons and shit, the general range of weird anime hentai shit." which you'll note, fits the tags and genre just fine.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

One of the things that bugs me the most about this is that everyone keeps saying 'It says it's for older audience, and warns of dark themes, horror themes and adult content.' as some sort of "well duh" moment.

It's an anime VN. This is the content warning:

"This game is not suitable for children or those who are easily disturbed."

These are the relevant steam tags:
Psychological Horror
Anime
Horror
Dating Sim
Dark
Gore
Violent
Sexual Content

You tell me an anime VN is suggested for older audiences, with those tags and warnings, Im not going to go 'Oh, must be about self harm and suidice'. Im gonna say "Probably some weird sex shit, tentacles and demons and shit, the general range of weird anime hentai shit." which you'll note, fits the tags and genre just fine.

I understand where you're coming from, but if they put 'Character suicide' in the tags that gives the entire game away. It'd be like if Silent Hill 2 came with the warnings of 'Amnesia and Spouse Murdering'. Kinda lets the cat out of the bag.

 

[Elijin]

One of the things that bugs me the most about this is that everyone keeps saying 'It says it's for older audience, and warns of dark themes, horror themes and adult content.' as some sort of "well duh" moment.

It's an anime VN. This is the content warning:

"This game is not suitable for children or those who are easily disturbed."

These are the relevant steam tags:
Psychological Horror
Anime
Horror
Dating Sim
Dark
Gore
Violent
Sexual Content

You tell me an anime VN is suggested for older audiences, with those tags and warnings, Im not going to go 'Oh, must be about self harm and suidice'. Im gonna say "Probably some weird sex shit, tentacles and demons and shit, the general range of weird anime hentai shit." which you'll note, fits the tags and genre just fine.

I understand where you're coming from, but if they put 'Character suicide' in the tags that gives the entire game away. It'd be like if Silent Hill 2 came with the warnings of 'Amnesia and Spouse Murdering'. Kinda lets the cat out of the bag.

And I get that. Im not condemning the game. Im dubious that the tags dont provide suitable forewarning for unsuitable audiences. The talk of 'well there was a warning' is a cop out.

I propose this situation:

John is very depressed and struggling. He's on the edge. He's a bit of a horror buff and loves his animes and waifus. He sees a free VN that has all the above! To distract himself from his general existence, he leaps in. The content quickly pulls him in with....whatever fuels the waifu nonsense, but then drags him into some dark places. Suddenly his escapism has actually pushed him further, and he has a dark moment. Maybe he acts on it, maybe he doesnt. But the tags did not warn him away from the content.


So yeah, I dont think the game should be pulled, I dont think it's the devil, I dont even think its responsible for anyone taking their own life. I just think its a bit light on warning, and the people who are saying a depressed person should know better are kind of being assholes.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

But what's your proposed solution? I mean if it comes with all of these:
Psychological Horror
Anime
Horror
Dating Sim
Dark
Gore
Violent
Sexual Content

And someone still doesn't know its a dark game, what else can be said? What other tag can be added that conveys its not for people struggling with depression and doesn't give the twist away, the twist being the only reason its popular?
To go back to SH2, if someone is playing it as escapism because their wife just died in a car crash, what warning can be put on the game to warn them of spouse death without giving the plot of the game away?
At a certain point isn't it a personal responsibility? Is it on the Devs and Publishers to list every single positive negative thing in a game just to make sure someone doesn't get too shocked?

Like how would gamers react if The Last of Us 2 was rated M for:
Violence
Sexual Content
Gore
Drug Use
Main Character Death
Secondary Father Figure character death
Depressing ending where everyone dies

Would they just shrug and go 'What a relief! Now depressed people know to avoid this.'

 

[Elijin]

SNIP

But what's your proposed solution? I mean if it comes with all of these:
Psychological Horror
Anime
Horror
Dating Sim
Dark
Gore
Violent
Sexual Content

And someone still doesn't know its a dark game, what else can be said? What other tag can be added that conveys its not for people struggling with depression and doesn't give the twist away, the twist being the only reason its popular?
To go back to SH2, if someone is playing it as escapism because their wife just died in a car crash, what warning can be put on the game to warn them of spouse death without giving the plot of the game away?
At a certain point isn't it a personal responsibility? Is it on the Devs and Publishers to list every single positive negative thing in a game just to make sure someone doesn't get too shocked?

Like how would gamers react if The Last of Us 2 was rated M for:
Violence
Sexual Content
Gore
Drug Use
Main Character Death
Secondary Father Figure character death
Depressing ending where everyone dies

Would they just shrug and go 'What a relief! Now depressed people know to avoid this.'

That's some false equivalence bullshit right there. You've already conceded within the genre of anime VNs those tags are pretty poorly defined, and dont necessarily result in content that pushes boundaries.

You could easily have a self harm or suicide tag in there. After all, having a tragic character isnt unheard of in VNs, so it doesnt need to undermine the whole bait and switch.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Its not a false equivalency. The character suicide was one of the twists of the game. The other being the one girl was 'aware' she was in a video game. Why isn't that in the tags? Shouldn't it be?

Remember Doki Doki was meant to be baby's first anime game, not a venerable aged game with mature anime fans well used to tentacle rape. It was thought to be a lovely little dating sim, and the whole suicide and character death was the twist. To put those in the tags would have given the game away and it wouldn't have been nearly as popular.
Go back to the ZP review where Yahtzee is looking through the game's tags. If character suicide was one of them it would have given the game away easily.

 

[Elijin]

SNIP

Its not a false equivalency. The character suicide was one of the twists of the game. The other being the one girl was 'aware' she was in a video game. Why isn't that in the tags? Shouldn't it be?

Remember Doki Doki was meant to be baby's first anime game, not a venerable aged game with mature anime fans well used to tentacle rape. It was thought to be a lovely little dating sim, and the whole suicide and character death was the twist. To put those in the tags would have given the game away and it wouldn't have been nearly as popular.
Go back to the ZP review where Yahtzee is looking through the game's tags. If character suicide was one of them it would have given the game away easily.

So a format designed to draw people into emotionally investing in romancing characters, which then horribly kills the characters through self harm and suicide doesnt seem like it's a touch on the nose, to hide that fact?

Like, I get its a plot twist. I get it's important. But if the entire premise of a game is "HAVE FEELINGS THEN WATCH THEM KILL THEMSELVES" being presented as cutesy fun, and not giving people the proper warnings going into that makes the game unplayable/worthless... than maybe the game IS at fault. Because at that point you're directly describing a product designed to use suicide to cause severe distress, then saying they should have known better for not realising 'Horror' 'Psychological Horror' 'Dark' 'Adult Content' and 'Gore' was all about sucking the viewer into caring about a girl and watching her commit suicide, rather than the endless list of anime shit that covers.

Out of interest I searched for the combo of "Psychological Horror" and "Dating Sim" and steam spat back 35 other games. Wonder how many of those manage to prove my point about anime + those tags = misleading.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

But if the entire premise of a game is "HAVE FEELINGS THEN WATCH THEM KILL THEMSELVES" being presented as cutesy fun, and not giving people the proper warnings going into that makes the game unplayable/worthless...

While I suppose the tags could have included "Extreme dark personal interrelations" or something like "Warning: depression" or had a "Do not play this game if you suffer from chronic depression...

The premise of the game is less "Adore waifus, then watch them die" and it's more about how dangerous obsession and depression can get, as the later arcs ram home how easy it can be to twist a person's personality traits into something dangerous to them and to others.

The first arc that leads up to the aforementioned suicide does eventually start dealing more seriously (and maturely) with the issue of depression, up until the day it happens, when just about anyone with any degree of Genre Savvy will see it coming a mile away and hopefully quit the game entirely if they know it's a trigger.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Depends on how strict with definitions you want to get. Psychological horror is defined as a genre with deeply disturbing imagery and disturbed emotional states, specifically to trigger suspicion, distrust, self-doubt, and paranoia of others, themselves, and the world in the viewers. Now does that cover suicidal tendencies? I would say so with self-doubt and self paranoia, but its not specifically stated so that might be a reach.

But you did bring up a good point. Doki Doki was designed to be a psychological horror game. Love these girls, now watch them die. Now with that as the premise, the desired outcome was shock and depression. Depression is a major medical health issue. So the game desired to inflict a health issue on its audience. Isn't that illegal? Its that infliction of distress? Like to me its analogous to a game that wants to trigger alcoholism or drug abuse in its audience.
Now by that light should Doki Doki be held responsible, legally? Have they committed a crime in deliberately setting out to inflict depression on people?

 

[Saelune]

If a kid kills themselves, maybe the parents should stop blaming others for their bad parenting? Like, maybe you should have taken better care of your child? A lot of suicidal people do not actually hide it that well, people just want to pretend its not true. Hug your kid, love them, and be aware of their feelings and emotional state. If your kid cannot feel like they can talk to you about their sadness, that says something about you as a parent.

Eeeehhh....Sometimes.

I had super loving and caring parents, and yet high school still pushed me to the point where I almost attempted suicide.

I told my parents all about the bullying I was enduring (well, as good as I could tell them anyway, being an aspergers riddled teen who was terrible at expressing himself), and they did everything they could to tell the school to fix it...But nothing really got better (At least not until 4 years into it when my dad finally flipped his shit at the VP). And I didn't want to make my parents feel bad about how depressed I was, or scare them that I thought about killing myself, so I kept it to myself to not scare or hurt them. I thought it was all my problem and no one else's despite all the love and support I got at home.

That bit where depression makes you want to isolate yourself is THE most dangerous part about it. It's what makes you put on a mask everyday where you seem happy and content, but inside you're a hot mess. It's what makes you want to avoid getting help because you don't want to bring anyone down or burden them with your problem. Throw in the fact that most people barely conceive of people committing suicide, and it takes a lot of people by surprise.

In some cases, it's not bad parenting. Depression is just that isolating and dangerous. :s

Better parents would try to break through your isolation to help you. Many emotional walls are built just to see who cares enough to break them down.

 

[Lufia Erim]

If a kid kills themselves, maybe the parents should stop blaming others for their bad parenting? Like, maybe you should have taken better care of your child? A lot of suicidal people do not actually hide it that well, people just want to pretend its not true. Hug your kid, love them, and be aware of their feelings and emotional state. If your kid cannot feel like they can talk to you about their sadness, that says something about you as a parent.

Depression is a lot deeper than that. You can be a great parent,and it can still happen. Depression =/= sadness.

 

[Saelune]

If a kid kills themselves, maybe the parents should stop blaming others for their bad parenting? Like, maybe you should have taken better care of your child? A lot of suicidal people do not actually hide it that well, people just want to pretend its not true. Hug your kid, love them, and be aware of their feelings and emotional state. If your kid cannot feel like they can talk to you about their sadness, that says something about you as a parent.

Depression is a lot deeper than that. You can be a great parent,and it can still happen. Depression =/= sadness.

There are a lot of bad parents who could have saved their children if they cared even a little about their kids, but oh poor them, their kid killed themselves, lets feel bad for the parent and not the kid.


Look, I get it, it is not 100% true 100% of the time, but I think it is more true than alot of people want to admit. Most people, even me, want to look away and pretend nothing is wrong when it is extremely obvious.


I certainly do not think the parents of this kid the article is about did enough to prevent what happened, considering they are blaming a game as if it made them suicidal rather than triggered something already brewing in the kid's mind.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

If a kid kills themselves, maybe the parents should stop blaming others for their bad parenting? Like, maybe you should have taken better care of your child? A lot of suicidal people do not actually hide it that well, people just want to pretend its not true. Hug your kid, love them, and be aware of their feelings and emotional state. If your kid cannot feel like they can talk to you about their sadness, that says something about you as a parent.

Depression is a lot deeper than that. You can be a great parent,and it can still happen. Depression =/= sadness.

There are a lot of bad parents who could have saved their children if they cared even a little about their kids, but oh poor them, their kid killed themselves, lets feel bad for the parent and not the kid.


Look, I get it, it is not 100% true 100% of the time, but I think it is more true than alot of people want to admit. Most people, even me, want to look away and pretend nothing is wrong when it is extremely obvious.


I certainly do not think the parents of this kid the article is about did enough to prevent what happened, considering they are blaming a game as if it made them suicidal rather than triggered something already brewing in the kid's mind.

You are partly correct. Yes obviously there is way more going on with the poor kid than a sad game, and certainly there had to be a shit load of emotional baggage that came before Doki Doki.
However that does not mean the parents are responsible. Depression can be caused by 1001 things, and bad parenting is one of them. The kid could have been chemically depressed, as in it was a chemical imbalance in his brain not triggering the right emotions. The parents could have done all the needed to, gotten him therapy, medication, the works, but it was a chemical condition that couldn't be fixed in time.
Likewise the kid could have been traumatized at some point, someone could have died in their life, and so many more reasons. Depression doesn't just mean you had bad parents.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Say, I wonder where GamerGate is in all of this? They are our duely appointed defenders against anti-gamer maligning, right?

They're waiting for Jim Sterling, Moviebob and Jezebel to blame the whole thing on misogynist vagina-fearing incels before declaring ALL of Video Gaming dead.

Well, the cycle DOES need to continue, or else the SJW's win...

 

[Saelune]

If a kid kills themselves, maybe the parents should stop blaming others for their bad parenting? Like, maybe you should have taken better care of your child? A lot of suicidal people do not actually hide it that well, people just want to pretend its not true. Hug your kid, love them, and be aware of their feelings and emotional state. If your kid cannot feel like they can talk to you about their sadness, that says something about you as a parent.

Depression is a lot deeper than that. You can be a great parent,and it can still happen. Depression =/= sadness.

There are a lot of bad parents who could have saved their children if they cared even a little about their kids, but oh poor them, their kid killed themselves, lets feel bad for the parent and not the kid.


Look, I get it, it is not 100% true 100% of the time, but I think it is more true than alot of people want to admit. Most people, even me, want to look away and pretend nothing is wrong when it is extremely obvious.


I certainly do not think the parents of this kid the article is about did enough to prevent what happened, considering they are blaming a game as if it made them suicidal rather than triggered something already brewing in the kid's mind.

You are partly correct. Yes obviously there is way more going on with the poor kid than a sad game, and certainly there had to be a shit load of emotional baggage that came before Doki Doki.
However that does not mean the parents are responsible. Depression can be caused by 1001 things, and bad parenting is one of them. The kid could have been chemically depressed, as in it was a chemical imbalance in his brain not triggering the right emotions. The parents could have done all the needed to, gotten him therapy, medication, the works, but it was a chemical condition that couldn't be fixed in time.
Likewise the kid could have been traumatized at some point, someone could have died in their life, and so many more reasons. Depression doesn't just mean you had bad parents.

I am not saying depression is always caused by bad parents, I am saying that many child suicides would not happen if their parents actually cared enough. If a child cannot confide in their parents, they are not doing a good enough job. And if anyone responds with 'that's most cases', yeah? Most parents are suboptimal.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

If a kid kills themselves, maybe the parents should stop blaming others for their bad parenting? Like, maybe you should have taken better care of your child? A lot of suicidal people do not actually hide it that well, people just want to pretend its not true. Hug your kid, love them, and be aware of their feelings and emotional state. If your kid cannot feel like they can talk to you about their sadness, that says something about you as a parent.

Depression is a lot deeper than that. You can be a great parent,and it can still happen. Depression =/= sadness.

There are a lot of bad parents who could have saved their children if they cared even a little about their kids, but oh poor them, their kid killed themselves, lets feel bad for the parent and not the kid.


Look, I get it, it is not 100% true 100% of the time, but I think it is more true than alot of people want to admit. Most people, even me, want to look away and pretend nothing is wrong when it is extremely obvious.


I certainly do not think the parents of this kid the article is about did enough to prevent what happened, considering they are blaming a game as if it made them suicidal rather than triggered something already brewing in the kid's mind.

The fact that the kid's parents are blaming a video game instead of recognizing that the kid probably had some serious mental problems, Depression at the very least if not Bipolar Disorder, does bring their capabilities as parents into question.
However, as SilentPony said, Depression can be triggered by a wide variety of things. Bad parenting doesn't help, but it's not the only cause. I suffer from Depression and I have awesome parents.

 

[Saelune]

If a kid kills themselves, maybe the parents should stop blaming others for their bad parenting? Like, maybe you should have taken better care of your child? A lot of suicidal people do not actually hide it that well, people just want to pretend its not true. Hug your kid, love them, and be aware of their feelings and emotional state. If your kid cannot feel like they can talk to you about their sadness, that says something about you as a parent.

Depression is a lot deeper than that. You can be a great parent,and it can still happen. Depression =/= sadness.

There are a lot of bad parents who could have saved their children if they cared even a little about their kids, but oh poor them, their kid killed themselves, lets feel bad for the parent and not the kid.


Look, I get it, it is not 100% true 100% of the time, but I think it is more true than alot of people want to admit. Most people, even me, want to look away and pretend nothing is wrong when it is extremely obvious.


I certainly do not think the parents of this kid the article is about did enough to prevent what happened, considering they are blaming a game as if it made them suicidal rather than triggered something already brewing in the kid's mind.

The fact that the kid's parents are blaming a video game instead of recognizing that the kid probably had some serious mental problems, Depression at the very least if not Bipolar Disorder, does bring their capabilities as parents into question.
However, as SilentPony said, Depression can be triggered by a wide variety of things. Bad parenting doesn't help, but it's not the only cause. I suffer from Depression and I have awesome parents.

Read my last post here. I did not say it was the cause of depression, I said it is why it ended in suicide, not help.

 

[CaitSeith]

Say, I wonder where GamerGate is in all of this? They are our duely appointed defenders against anti-gamer maligning, right?

They're waiting for Jim Sterling, Moviebob and Jezebel to blame the whole thing on misogynist vagina-fearing incels before declaring ALL of Video Gaming dead.

Then they are bound to wait for a long time.

 

[sXeth]

Steam doesn't age rate their games? That's really bad.

Someone linked the credit card that minors literally can't have to Steam before you can get things on there.

IF we're assuming the kids are capable enough to create their own Steam account and get money from somewhere to buy steam cards and somehow avoid their parents noticing the used steam cards, I'm guessing the extra click of Age gate wouldn't exactly be a hindrance.

Otherwise the parents are the actual account holders and buying the games, so if they buy the game its the same as if someone goes into Gamestop with their 10 year old and buys GTA.

 

[Elijin]

Steam doesn't age rate their games? That's really bad.

Someone linked the credit card that minors literally can't have to Steam before you can get things on there.

IF we're assuming the kids are capable enough to create their own Steam account and get money from somewhere to buy steam cards and somehow avoid their parents noticing the used steam cards, I'm guessing the extra click of Age gate wouldn't exactly be a hindrance.

Otherwise the parents are the actual account holders and buying the games, so if they buy the game its the same as if someone goes into Gamestop with their 10 year old and buys GTA.

You can buy giftcards straight of the racks alongside all the other pre-determined value gift cards, so uh...???