Don't let vocal minorties paint a picture of an entire fanbase

Redd the Sock

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General stupidity and laziness aside, stereotyping happens to vilify. An aspiring artist wanting your fans to have as little input into your work as possible: when your work gets raked under the coals, highlight the worst and most immature to deflect from more rational critique. Hate COD or shooters in general: point to the most immature person you can find and call it representative of the community. The whole gender debate devolved into rapid feminists wanting censorship vs MRAs wanting women to stay in the kitchen as both sides tried to avoid the points of the other. When it comes to debating issues, not one really wants to talk to rational people. They want their opponents as close to one dimensional comic book villains as possible.
 

HoneyVision

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ZZoMBiE13 said:
HoneyVision said:
This is an issue of ignorance and it spans across thousands of issues across the globe. No matter what it is, there will always be someone who ruins the image of a particular group by being extreme and irrational. From technology to art to religion, there are ALWAYS people who make "the rest of us look bad". And of course, there are always people who will take that as the standard representative of that group, failing to look deeper than what meets the eye.

I have to deal with it everyday. I like fashion, which instantly makes people think that I'm snobby and judgmental because of what 'fashion people' say/have said in the past. I'm also Christian, which instantly equates to 'hypocritical bigot' these days, because of what people, such as the church, have said in the past.

The fault is of the person selfishly saying things without realizing what s/he is really undermining, and the people who are too lazy/stupid to realize that there is far more than what they hear from particular people.
If this were an 80s movie, I'd SO be giving you the slow clap right now.
Would that be the slow clap indicating the start of an applause or the kind that's sarcastic? lol













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Erttheking

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CloudAtlas said:
Brian Tams said:
How about instead of wasting time and energy deflecting criticism, you actually do something to solve the problem?

Yes, I agree that a minority of gamers are the ones making us look bad. But, I refuse to do what you're doing, which is to simply say "I'm not one of them", and then go about your business. Your inaction fuels the problem as well as the perception that we're all threatening dicks. Ignoring the problem does not change the fact that there is a problem.

If you don't like the heat of gamers being treated unfairly, then why don't you confront those who are making us look bad and call them out on it? Whining about how unfair it is won't stop those who are MAKING the situation unfair from continuing to poison the community. The fact that it takes someone like Jim to call us out on our inaction is sickening.
Exactly. Don't want minorities to paint a bad picture of gamers? Then call them out on their shitty behavior. And if enough people do that, others will realize, hey, those assholes are just a minority, and the majority doesn't condone their behavior, and it is speaking out against them. That would help to paint a better picture.
I agree for the most part, I'm just reminding people here not to jump to conclusions.

Although if the latest Jim video is anything to go by, some people take issue even with that seemingly simple solution.
 

Something Amyss

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ThingWhatSqueaks said:
I would also add that if a community really does truly have an issue with a vocal minority that's making it look bad (probably not the case with CoD) then the less vocal majority needs to step the fuck up and let people know that not everyone who does or plays _____________ is like that.
I really hate the whole "vocal minority" argument. It's usually used in cases where it's not true, but even if it is true, it's like "oh gee, if only there was something you could do about it." Like here. People concerned with getting broad brushed by a minority's actions. Well, instead of saying "don't judge me by the apparent community standards," change the damn standards.

SonicWaffle said:
Which is odd really, because the only Xbox games I ever really put time into playing online are the CoD series, and nobody ever talks. I've never received any abuse or even messages, it's just a lot of people being very quiet.
I haven't been called a ****** in a while, but that's mostly because I had to lay off CoD due to a finger injury. My hatemail is actually almost entirely exclusive to CoD games. And yeah, I no a lot of people talk about no mics and no hate, so maybe I just draw the noisy lobbies. I get not only the people who are butthurt that they're losing, but the people who are butthurt that they're winning. People who'll call their own teammates faggots or niggers for not playing on their level (even if their level isn't all that high, but that's another story). I've got maybe one piece of hatemail from someone not CoD related (I think it was Trenched/Iron Brigade, which doesn't even have vs multiplayer).

It's really hard to tell if I just draw the shit sammich or if others are lucky. A lot of people complain about Live kiddies, though, so I suspect it's the latter.

Again, I don't know for sure. These are my thoughts, suspicions and feelings based on what data I have, but I don't exactly have conclusive proof.

Ishal said:
Thats right, I recall you bringing this up in other threads that you play CoD and enjoy it. How DARE you?!?! Kidding =P
In my defense, I mostly play because it's the only game series where I can get more than two friends on at a time. Having an entire team comprised of friends generally makes any game tolerable, and my preference is to play it with any many friends as possible. Makes it harder to get shit from your teammates (except the stuff we normally give each other, as banter. Which is one thing when you know each other and another when it's some random screaming at you).

Anyway, I'm not really here to defend myself, I found your question interesting:

But I'd like to ask, what do you think is the demographic for the players you encounter?
As a whole or the people who flame?

The ones with mics are sometimes young, but more often than not sound like they're in the early adult range. That is, people old enough to own the games but probably no later than 25 or so. It's hard to accurately judge age by voice though, and these are just guesses. After mid-twenties, your voice starts to drop more (either sex). Now, this is just my experience, so maybe it is mostly kids. Also, people who don't use a mic but flame you via text are a wild card. Most of them can't even spell their insults right, but I'm on Facebook routinely and see the same from people I went to school with who I know know better. They could all be kids, they could be partially kids, or none of them could be kids.

I am probably a terrible sample, but it doesn't personally seem like people who are in the Nintendo market per se. But maybe it is, because I can't tell whether xxX1337sn1p3rkw1ksc0p318769Xxx is 12 or 40 based on screen name and text alone.

Interesting side note, though, and you have made me think about this: I tend to be more likely to just roll my eyes and ignore someone who sounds like a kid. In part because "I'm gonna find out where you live" sounds less threatening from someone who still hangs their sheets out the window in the morning, but also because I think "they'll grow out of it." But what if they are learning this behaviour is acceptable because people take that attitude?

Hell, what if the people in their twenties are like this because they learned that sort of behaviour was okay back when they WERE the Mario crowd? I got started in "mature" titles when I was 12, and probably could have started earlier, but the only reason I tried Doom and Mortal Kombat was that they were the hot things at the time. We didn't have much in the way of online access for years, and so I don't really have that sort of measure.

Oh, and this was in my local Pizza Hut, something still being advertised on kid's videos at the time as a family restaurant


Chop people up while waiting for your meat lover's pizza....

And it wasn't much longer before the "M" rating on games became more or less a selling point. I'm not saying there were no mature titles before, but we sort of hit mainstream critical mass as I was growing up.

I don't know. It's something to mull over, that's for sure.
 

Ishal

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Zachary Amaranth said:
In my defense, I mostly play because it's the only game series where I can get more than two friends on at a time. Having an entire team comprised of friends generally makes any game tolerable, and my preference is to play it with any many friends as possible. Makes it harder to get shit from your teammates (except the stuff we normally give each other, as banter. Which is one thing when you know each other and another when it's some random screaming at you).

Anyway, I'm not really here to defend myself, I found your question interesting:

But I'd like to ask, what do you think is the demographic for the players you encounter?
As a whole or the people who flame?

The ones with mics are sometimes young, but more often than not sound like they're in the early adult range. That is, people old enough to own the games but probably no later than 25 or so. It's hard to accurately judge age by voice though, and these are just guesses. After mid-twenties, your voice starts to drop more (either sex). Now, this is just my experience, so maybe it is mostly kids. Also, people who don't use a mic but flame you via text are a wild card. Most of them can't even spell their insults right, but I'm on Facebook routinely and see the same from people I went to school with who I know know better. They could all be kids, they could be partially kids, or none of them could be kids.
I suppose that makes sense, CoD has made more money than the biggest blockbuster in Hollywood or something like that right? Makes sense that the demographic would be bigger with so many people buying it. But there is something to be said about the community and it influencing people. Watching the rage at the CoD tournament in Europe was somewhat eye opening to me.


Interesting side note, though, and you have made me think about this: I tend to be more likely to just roll my eyes and ignore someone who sounds like a kid. In part because "I'm gonna find out where you live" sounds less threatening from someone who still hangs their sheets out the window in the morning, but also because I think "they'll grow out of it." But what if they are learning this behaviour is acceptable because people take that attitude?
Those are the common ways of dealing with that stuff though. People have lots of shit going on in their lives, and are rather selfish as we've seen in the gaming "political" threads around here. The jimquisition ones, the articles about gamer culture and moviebob's occasional big picture topic. The term I see thrown around with "white knight" is "social justice warrior" or something similar. That appeals more to gender issues, but the implication when its used seems to seek to degrade the person holding views that something must be done. Perhaps implying that they take extra time to dwell on issues that they themselves consider meaningless or fruitless. "

ex: "Why get all bent out of shape because of Hepler? It's just the internet.." then they go back to what they were doing.

I don't have the slightest idea of what to do other than report them or ignore them. Engaging them only ends up "feeding the trolls" as it were. At least thats what I've found.



Oh, and this was in my local Pizza Hut, something still being advertised on kid's videos at the time as a family restaurant
Times were different then weren't they? I remember stuff like that too, but in arcades at kid friendly places like fairs or amusement parks. I'm not a nineties kid, or at least I don't think I am. I was born in 89 so I wasn't a teen til the 2000's. But my parents never let me have a gaming system til I was about 11-13 I think. My first console was an N64, and I wasn't allowed any mature games until years later. Goldeneye, Turok, Perfect Dark, and all the other the other ones were forbidden. While violence in cartoons has dropped off (MLP, Gravity Falls, etc) it seems to be increasing elsewhere and approaching the age of younger and younger children. It is interesting.
 

Something Amyss

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I normally don't bother with posts that are older than a week or so, but I meant to reply here and it slipped through the cracks, so I'm doing it anyway.

Ishal said:
I suppose that makes sense, CoD has made more money than the biggest blockbuster in Hollywood or something like that right? Makes sense that the demographic would be bigger with so many people buying it. But there is something to be said about the community and it influencing people. Watching the rage at the CoD tournament in Europe was somewhat eye opening to me.
It really is that big, though I don't remember the specifics. I haven't seen this CoD tournie you reference, but I'm not actually surprised.

Of course, it still could go both ways. Maybe CoD players tend to be assholes, or maybe we only notice the loud ones and there are just more loud ones because of the size of the audience. I mean, I've come across very few positive players in Call of Duty, but is that just my experience? Is it common? It seems common, but is THAT just my experience? I mean, this site hates XBox Live and CoD players anyway, so there's a certain bias there.


Those are the common ways of dealing with that stuff though. People have lots of shit going on in their lives, and are rather selfish as we've seen in the gaming "political" threads around here. The jimquisition ones, the articles about gamer culture and moviebob's occasional big picture topic. The term I see thrown around with "white knight" is "social justice warrior" or something similar. That appeals more to gender issues, but the implication when its used seems to seek to degrade the person holding views that something must be done. Perhaps implying that they take extra time to dwell on issues that they themselves consider meaningless or fruitless. "

ex: "Why get all bent out of shape because of Hepler? It's just the internet.." then they go back to what they were doing.

I don't have the slightest idea of what to do other than report them or ignore them. Engaging them only ends up "feeding the trolls" as it were. At least thats what I've found.
Selfish is a pretty good words. "This doesn't affect me, so you're stupid for bringing it up." What's more, there's a lot of antipathy towards things that really don't concern people. I mean, if you (general you) don't like gender topics, ignore them. I don't get why there's negativity around CoD Ghosts adding female avatars unless the concern is cooties or something. I mean, how does the option affect anyone who doesn't want to use it?

This is, of course, just one example, but you mentioned gender and we're already on CoD, so it came naturally. Another example is the antipathy towards Gaymer cons. Which, by the way, are open to anyone, so the first argument of "why do they get to have gay-only cons but we can't have straight-only ones" right out of the window. I mean, yeah, you're probably not going to be welcome if you keep calling people "******," but that's not discrimination against your sexuality.

My absolute favrourite was the frequently repeated line that seemed to completely lack self-awareness:

"I wouldn't feel comfortable being the minority/being the only straight/being singled out for my sexuality."

Yeah, now apply that back to the LGBT crowd.

Like, I don't know a good example because I tend to care about these issues, so it's hard to counter-example. But yeah.

I tend to engage or not engage people on a case-by-case basis, though. Some people seem more reasonable than others. It sometimes happens that they just haven't thought much on it. Others seem to be hostile or trolls, and I tend to mark them, put them on ignore, or just move along. There's not much of a way to "win" that fight.

And maybe, when it comes to the online community, maybe marking the racist little five year old in CoD is good enough. I just don't know. I try not to police the interwebs.

On the flip-side, sometimes even just arguing can make these issues more public, force them to be dealth with.

On the "White Knighting" thing, it always amazes me. I mean, I theoretically abhor the practice of sticking up for women just because they're girls and they need it, or with the cynical hope of getting some, but I don't see that being what "White Knighting" is commonly used to describe. It seems to be anyone who is positive towards women in games, or not threatening to rape women because you dislike them, or whatever.

I mean, someone once said (and it's oft-quoted) that feminism is the radical notion that women are people too. And it seems like that's what a good chunk of the "White Knight" claims are: people who get offended at this notion that women are people and should be included as such.

I get called Politically Correct a lot, too. Because people don't understand what that word means. I can be offensive. I don't go out of my way not to offend people, I don't really dictate language, etc. It's just, you know, I demonstrate some level of empathy. And that seems to be what sets people off in the first place. The audacity to give a damn about someone who might not be just like me.

Oi.

Times were different then weren't they? I remember stuff like that too, but in arcades at kid friendly places like fairs or amusement parks. I'm not a nineties kid, or at least I don't think I am. I was born in 89 so I wasn't a teen til the 2000's. But my parents never let me have a gaming system til I was about 11-13 I think. My first console was an N64, and I wasn't allowed any mature games until years later. Goldeneye, Turok, Perfect Dark, and all the other the other ones were forbidden. While violence in cartoons has dropped off (MLP, Gravity Falls, etc) it seems to be increasing elsewhere and approaching the age of younger and younger children. It is interesting.
I was playing mature titles back on the SNES, though I don't remember if they were labeled mature at the time. Doom and Mortal Kombat were certainly some of the earliest controversial titles, and I played them when they were new. I mean, I know there were risque titles before, but they didn't seem to hit the media. My parents would have never let me get away with the crap a lot of kids are doing, but it was the 90s, so they only had to work 90 hours between them to stay above the poverty line. I don't entirely blame the parents, because we extoll the virtues of family, but pretty much require a 60 hour work week to stay above water. And I'm sure kids are going to get around it, anyway. I guess what I'm saying is they should get off my lawn. *shakes cane*

The other side of the coin on kids' entertainment, though, is that there also seems to be less educational material on TV. I grew up on Mr Rogers, Sesame Street, Reading Rainbow, Mr Wizard, etc. Also, one of my teachers in high school loved Bill Nye, so I watched a bit of him when I was older. These days, the first three on my list are actively decried by Fox News as bad. I don't even know if Reading Rainbow is around, but they took shots at it. And at Mr Rogers shortly after he died. And they actively hate the Muppets and Sesame Street because sharing and caring went from being standard to being a socialist plot! Viewership is evidently down because parents don't want to indoctrinate their kids or something.

Mr Wizard sparked my interest in science and technology, so I'm a little biased here, but it's a damn shame that's the sort of thing that's getting less frequent. But at the same time, I don't really mind violent cartoons. I don't think violent media operates in a vacuum or changes people. If a reputed scientific or medical journal publishes a study with a causal link, I'll pay attention, though.

Although I'm okay with shows like MLP. I'm not a fan, but it seems to be a well-crafted show that kids enjoy and preaches virtues of love and friendship. Although Pinky Pie scares me a little. Like, if she was real, she'd be the reason I locked my doors.

I was going somewhere with this. I forget.

Anyway, I guess one of our challenges is to ask how we do deal with kids being so plugged in. It's not changing. They're here and they're here to stay. I dislike all that "we need to stop the kids from...." Well, that would be great (maybe, I don't know), but it's like asking your dog to use a condom every time it gets it on. It's unrealistic and frustrating for everyone involved.

But then, as I already indicated, adults can also be a problem. So maybe it's just "how do we deal with people in an age of social media and constant connectivity?"