yes, or easier to to make that connection when they don't speak English very well or at all in some cases. and before you go all 'oh that's stereotyping' the stereotype exists for a reason.Fagotto said:
Don't wear the American Flag on your shirt in California schools, you might offend the Mexicans.
- Thread starter Frost27
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Both sides are wrong. If it did offend the students they should have simply gotten over it, it was just an ugly shirt and not them openly mocking their culture, the school should have mellowed out. The people who call outrage also need to mellow out for giving way WAY too much importance on symbolism. In fact more often than not i find "Patriots" do the most damage to this nation by deluding themselves into thinking the flag was a holy design passed down from Jah and that America can do no wrong when the flag is in fact a little funny looking and America does wrong all the fucking time. In fact i'm hard pressed to find things America does right.
people unwilling to remove them selves from that stigma don't help ether, i (unfortunately) know a guy who is a walking negative male stereotype, worse yet, he's proud of itFagotto said:
Sorry for the delay in responding (been ill lately) but no-one's saying that Americans can't be proud of their culture.Volf99 said:
What is being said is that there's a time, a place and a way to do it (huge difference right there).
As an Irishman who frequently sees St. Patrick's Day used as an excuse to get drunk without any real regard for what they day is actually celebrating I understand that to a lot of people it's just another day (I admitantly don't observe it too closely myself, hell, I don't even drink) but that isn't what was going on in this instance.
These students weren't just showing how 'proud they were to be American' or 'celebrating their culture', they were going out of their way to offend the Mexican students and show that they not only don't care about their culture (that alone would be fine) but that it wasn't welcome there and they looked down upon it.
I don't think special exceptions should be made for anyone either, if it had been the Mexican students acting in a similar fashion with similar intent then they'd be the one's I'd be scolding in this situation.
It seems to have eaten my post, the short version was this:
The legal system has come out and stated, within the rulings it makes time and time again, that you have no rights if you are not yet an adult. None! The school can make abjuratory rules as long as it wants to and you can not complain. Even your parents, adults in their own rights, can not expect the legal system to defend their children's rights or view their children's rights as some sort of extension of their own.
You have no rights... deal with it, oh wait, the courts view you as a non-entity till your 21 so you can't....
The legal system has come out and stated, within the rulings it makes time and time again, that you have no rights if you are not yet an adult. None! The school can make abjuratory rules as long as it wants to and you can not complain. Even your parents, adults in their own rights, can not expect the legal system to defend their children's rights or view their children's rights as some sort of extension of their own.
You have no rights... deal with it, oh wait, the courts view you as a non-entity till your 21 so you can't....
The thing about freedom of speech, or any freedoms what so ever, is that you need to defend it in ALL of the cases and not just cases where it we are talking about sugar and rainbows.Volf99 said:
If anything, when the speech is the most fowl and the most disgusting is the time we need to defend it the most. Your freedoms are not going to be attacked for speaking something that the majority finds themselves in agreement, or when you speak something the government wants to be heard. For it is always these cases, where what is being said does not grok with us at all, where we will find the weakening of freedom. All done under the argument that it is 'offensive speech' they are trying to prevent.
Any case where we stand by and allow a voice to be silenced is another step towards freedom for no-one.
I feel that the Mexican students were being just as obnoxious as the American students. The Mexican students knew from previous experiences that people didn't like what they were doing but they did it any way and given the fact that the students are teenagers, I wouldn't be surprised if there was intention to do it to antagonize the American students. I find it funny that people automatically assume that SOME of the Mexican students(presumably the guys because "guys being guys") did it with the intent of antagonizing the American students. That said, I think the American students had the same intention to antagonize the Mexican students.Iron Mal said:
The version of events I read about did suggest a pre-existing hostility between the two groups of students, however, given the circumstances they were acting under I woud say that the Mexican students were in the right here (it was their holiday so it's only to be expected that they should celebrate it, saying they shouldn't would be akin to saying that an American should keep the 4th of July to themselves in England because other people aren't going to like it).Volf99 said:
While it is ambigious as to the intent of the Mexican students the American ones have no such excuse and the timing of their behaviour made their intended message very clear (this is why I'm vastly less sympathetic to them and those who defend them).
You can't really argue that 'well the Mexican students should have known better, they knew people wouldn't like it' when that also applies to the Americans too (even more so given the circumstances).
I fully acknowledge that the American students have a "certain motive". I just feel that their are Mexican students with the same "certain motive", and I think it is naive to think that while one group of teenage guys have a "certain motive" while the other one doesn't (I realize I'm ignoring girls and being sexist, but being a guy myself I'm speaking from personal experience).Iron Mal said:
As I have said before, there is a time and a place. If I was a high school student that transferred to an English high school and I had school in July (I don't know if they have summer vocation) , I would celebrate the 4th of July AFTER school, not during.
That's fair enough and I agree (I even said that the level of intent behind the actions of the Mexican students was fairly ambiguous), I just feel that in this case the Americans really had no excuse for their behaviour and that the fact that more than a few people started citing things like infringments of freedom of speech and how 'we can't even wear our own flag in our own country anymore?' when that isn't really the problem at hand.Volf99 said:
I also have to agree with you that both sides could have chosen a better time and place to express their 'pride'.
Also, we do get Summer Holidays so I just realised the 4th of July in England wouldn't be much of an issue anyway in reality (well...I only meant it as a hypothetical situation so realism be damned!).
Not gonna lie, I think the flag of every coutnry should be banned everywhere. What a stupid thing to get so fussed about.
As for the situation, here's the bottom line: some judges, who are likely to be more experienced and smarter people than all of us, heard actual evidence that the news reporters (our "first source" information) didn't. It's likely that their decision is far more valid the the fuming opinion of a few kids behind their computer screens.
Do you even know why these kids wore their American flag shirts into school on a Mexican holiday? Sounds like nationalist trolling to me...
As for the situation, here's the bottom line: some judges, who are likely to be more experienced and smarter people than all of us, heard actual evidence that the news reporters (our "first source" information) didn't. It's likely that their decision is far more valid the the fuming opinion of a few kids behind their computer screens.
Do you even know why these kids wore their American flag shirts into school on a Mexican holiday? Sounds like nationalist trolling to me...
The school can ban virtually anything it wants if it considers it disruptive to education.
I've taught at schools that didn't allow red or blue clothing, unnatural hair colors, and in one case "attention getting hairstyles".
From what I remember of the case, it was a group that was wearing the American flag specifically as a protest to students wearing Mexican flags on Cinco de Mayo. The school told the particular students looking to do so, "Don't wear it on the 5th" to head that off.
Totally side with the school.
If I got wind of a bunch of students looking to wear shirts directly countering something another group was doing on one specific day, I would totally take steps to get that group to stop. On that day. They would certainly be free to do their thing on another day, but not that one. In this case, perhaps on Feb 2, celebrating the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
I've taught at schools that didn't allow red or blue clothing, unnatural hair colors, and in one case "attention getting hairstyles".
From what I remember of the case, it was a group that was wearing the American flag specifically as a protest to students wearing Mexican flags on Cinco de Mayo. The school told the particular students looking to do so, "Don't wear it on the 5th" to head that off.
Totally side with the school.
If I got wind of a bunch of students looking to wear shirts directly countering something another group was doing on one specific day, I would totally take steps to get that group to stop. On that day. They would certainly be free to do their thing on another day, but not that one. In this case, perhaps on Feb 2, celebrating the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.