Doom Architect "Not Excited" by Next-Gen Consoles

[Veldt Falsetto]

It's been like this since the Ps2...didn't stop id from creating a game purely based on graphics though did it...I think even Final Fantasy XIII had more substance than RAGE

 

[Kathinka]

Nope, it was the hardware.

http://bf3blog.com/2011/07/dice-explains-why-consoles-are-limited-to-24-players/

I would rather play with 64 players on a map that is made for 64 players, yes.

Ok, firstly that is the most vague excuse I've ever heard in my life. Secondly, after some more research, it was actually the players that had to be limited, and the map size was cut simply to correct for the number of reduced players. So, again, my comment stands. Dedicated servers removes the processing burden the players make off the host system and onto a server specifically dedicated to the task.

Research? You mean "reading my post"?

I was referring to the way the player count in MP is drastically reduced compared to the PC.

My point stands and is right. Hardware held it back. You say I should believe Carmack as he knows more but you essentially ignore DICE and become a hypocrite in the process.

I don't know why I should bother with you.

it's even worse than that, even the PC version was castrated in order to make the whole thing run on consoles so that dice couldn't be blamed for favoritism.

in the alpha version, when PC was still the lead platform, the level of destruction was INSANE. now we have something slighty sub-bc 2. hit detection was server side (as it should be, and is done in every major fps since ever), crisp and spot on, unlike now with client side hit detection (the glories of running arround a corner and dying 4 seconds after..).

all of wich changed once they decided that it would be smarter to draw all versions down to the lowest common denominator.

 

[matrix3509]

Nope, it was the hardware.

http://bf3blog.com/2011/07/dice-explains-why-consoles-are-limited-to-24-players/

I would rather play with 64 players on a map that is made for 64 players, yes.

Ok, firstly that is the most vague excuse I've ever heard in my life. Secondly, after some more research, it was actually the players that had to be limited, and the map size was cut simply to correct for the number of reduced players. So, again, my comment stands. Dedicated servers removes the processing burden the players make off the host system and onto a server specifically dedicated to the task.

Research? You mean "reading my post"?

I was referring to the way the player count in MP is drastically reduced compared to the PC.

My point stands and is right. Hardware held it back. You say I should believe Carmack as he knows more but you essentially ignore DICE and become a hypocrite in the process.

I don't know why I should bother with you.

I'm not ignoring DICE, I'm just pointing out what could fix your problem with the player count, a solution they have used in the past, and by research, I mean reading the original article, which is just as vague, and reading past the PR speak. Its pretty hilarious how zealously people defend their "MOAR GRAFIX" arguments, when they don't even realize that this same argument is why the industy is going down the shitter.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Carmack was always on life support, even more so these days when his team can't make any good games anymore....

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

It's been like this since the Ps2...didn't stop id from creating a game purely based on graphics though did it...I think even Final Fantasy XIII had more substance than RAGE

Oh snap!

OT: Didn't he complain about the PS3 too? But I would take his comments more seriously if RAGE didn't have so many problems with it.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Of course he isn't. Unreal 4 will kill id XD

 

[Vigormortis]

As much of a let down RAGE was on PC (I mean, really Carmack? Driver support for drivers that didn't exist?), I still usually agree with most things he says.

This case is no different. While I think steps still need to be made in area of graphical fidelity (most notably in animation, frame-rates, texture-bandwidth, and light-sourcing) I agree with him that the next cycle of hardware should concentrate on other aspects of game design. Most important of all being that of adaptive artificial-intelligence and more believable physics.

I also agree with Carmack on display tech. I believe that the next big step will (should) be VR displays with augmented-reality integration.

This guy hasn't been relevant in YEARS.

Wrong. Oh so wrong.

To the end-user/lay-man (in a direct way), yes. He hasn't been "relevant".

But to the industry, he has pretty much always been relevant. His technical achievements, in engine design, hardware tech, and even outside of the gaming industry, have kept him relevant. For all intents and purposes, the man's a genius. Sure, the actual "games" his own company pumps out aren't always that "amazing", but don't discredit the man's actual achievements because of that.

snip

Well said.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I don't think it will be too much longer before graphics hit their peak anyway. I mean, you can't make more realistic graphics than ones that actually LOOK like real life, and once that happens and it becomes industry standard, developers will for the first time in a decade or so have to finally focus all their efforts in a game on substance, since style is already taken care of. I mean, there's already games right now that look so close to real life that if you don't already know they're games you'd have to look pretty closely in order to tell that they are.

 

[Vigormortis]

Of course he isn't. Unreal 4 will kill id XD

I hope that's sarcasm.

Because, by that logic, Frostbyte 2 should have killed Epic. Or, hell, the CryEngine should have forever toppled every other developer in existence.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Of course he isn't. Unreal 4 will kill id XD

I hope that's sarcasm.

Because, by that logic, Frostbyte 2 should have killed Epic. Or, hell, the CryEngine should have forever toppled every other developer in existence.

Yes the Cry engine, otherwise known as memory leak central. I can see that going down hugely well on consoles that have less RAM than my phone does.

 

[Vigormortis]

Of course he isn't. Unreal 4 will kill id XD

I hope that's sarcasm.

Because, by that logic, Frostbyte 2 should have killed Epic. Or, hell, the CryEngine should have forever toppled every other developer in existence.

Yes the Cry engine, otherwise known as memory leak central. I can see that going down hugely well on consoles that have less RAM than my phone does.

Right. It's certainly not like they optimized that engine at all. Nope. Not at all.

And it's certainly not like they've released two newer version of the engine, one of which is so optimized it runs on fucking web-browsers...

Nope. You're right. Epic Games is CLEARLY the king of engine tech and Unreal Engine 4 will cause every other tech developer to crumble.

(read that with a hefty dose of snarkiness, by the way)

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I can't say I'm overly excited for the next generation of consoles either, but then again I wasn't overly thrilled by this generation either.

 

[Baldr]

As long as any gear is more cumbersome and less comfortable that a pair of thick glasses, it is never going to be mainstream. AR is the future, not VR.

 

[Turtleboy1017]

Isn't John Carmack's only achivement in life making a few maginally pretty games? He's always been pushing the evelope in terms of tech even when everything else suffers (and even somtimes the overal visulas). Then again i don't really 'get' John Carmack's stlye; the games he has made have been interesting technology peices but have always dated. Fast. RAGE was downright broken on the PC and had little to offer bar its visuals.

I just wish these comments came from a place where they didn't ring so hollow.

Although I'm sure you could have pieced it together by reading the rest of the comments, I'm just going to repeat that John Carmack's achievements have more relevance and weight than almost any other game designer, ever.

Those knowledgeable in programming know that John Carmack is a friggin genius. It might be easy to just look at the number of games he's helped produce and write him off as a has-been or something, but the mark he's left on gaming can be compared to the mark Isaac Newton left on mathematics.

 

[Denamic]

Why does online discussion about graphics bring out the inner douchebag in people?

 

[NeoShinGundam]

I've always had a higher opinion of John Carmack as opposed to Cliff Bleszinski. Now I remember why.

 

[Scow2]

This guy's kinda talking out his ass - the only valid point he has (But didn't actually say) is that improving model/texture resolution to get "Better Graphics" is chasing after a red herring.

I'm excited for Epic's Unreal 4 engine: We're well past the point where Resolution is no longer important - nobody gives a shit if there are a few more or fewer vertexes in any given model, or if one texture's twice as big as another. Resolution isn't where graphical fidelity resides - lighting and particle effects are. We notice motion and changes in light far, FAR more than we notice static detail.

 

[Scars Unseen]

THANK YOU! Someone needed to say it without fear of being flamed by insecure P.C. nerds desperately trying to justify their $5000 rig. Graphics are not, and have never been, what gaming is all about. As it stands, we're seeing terrible problems with people trying to recoup costs on the games they've made even with current gen graphics. Maybe once we've got beyond the situation where stuff like this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/117931-EA-Aims-to-Broaden-Dead-Space-Audience] happens, we can think about graphics. But not before then.

It's not just graphics, though. There's severe limitations on other hardware, such as RAM and CPU speed.

For instance, an Xbox 360 trying to play this,

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0yeT--9fCgY/TlpSXE-2qiI/AAAAAAAABng/XRj-rPNWhS8/s1600/Dwarf_Fortress_Ascii.png

...would still slow to a crawl during an invasion, water routing, volcanic eruption, large explosion, etc. because of the massive amount of calculations it uses.

Then again, it's John Carmack. He'd probably be able to optimize it, if we ignore the zeppelin-crash that was RAGE.

DING DING DING! We have a winner! Anyone who thinks that current consoles, or even PC gaming for that matter, has reached the point where no more technical improvements are relevant to gameplay seriously needs to stretch their imagination a bit. Let me know when a game system can run a game with a Dwarf Fortress level of world(and physics) simulation, at least current gen graphics with far more nonstatic elements drawn on screen, precise spacial positioning of sound, unique AI personalities for every NPC while allowing hundreds of players on LAN or online. When all of this is possible on a console, I'll accept that we've hit the point where further technical advancement is probably not strictly needed to advance the industry.

The capability to create near photorealistic environments and people isn't even half the battle. And it all takes processing power.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Pretty much every single thing you said there was wrong and misinformed.

OT This is pretty hypocritical coming from Carmack seeing as he complained about the PS3 hardware for ages and about how hard it was to hit 60 FPS on the machine.

The reason Carmack complained about the PS3 (just like all developers do) is because the hardware is shit to code for. Seriously I suggest you learn about hardware architecture and how the PS3 is a shit example of it before you criticize a man who knows more about said hardware than anyone else in the industry.

Which would be relevant if he hadn't absolutely shit the bed as far as PC goes with Rage as well.