DOTA 2: "Sorry, no new people welcome"
- Thread starter SPARTANXIII
- Start date
it's in beta and Valve hasn't finished it yet. i would imagine it's not at the top of their to-do list because there are dozens upon dozens of third-party resources that can teach you how to play the game. you likely won't become comfortable with the game until about 60 hours in (roughly 80 games). there's a steep learning curve, and if it's not for you, it's not for you.
if you're still interested in the game, i recommend a bot match marathon, followed by some Let's Plays. there are a bunch of people out there streaming and uploading DOTA, but i would recommend you look up Purge as watching him play really helped me out when i was getting started.
as for the community. . . welcome to MOBAs. that's all i can really say.
if you're still interested in the game, i recommend a bot match marathon, followed by some Let's Plays. there are a bunch of people out there streaming and uploading DOTA, but i would recommend you look up Purge as watching him play really helped me out when i was getting started.
as for the community. . . welcome to MOBAs. that's all i can really say.
The problem is that Dota 2 is currently in beta, tailored mostly to people who are more or less familiar with it already, so if you're completely new, enter the beta at your own risk. If you have a friend who plays Dota, I'd recommend asking him for help, the people I've sat with while they played their first game did way better that the ones who didn't have that advantage.
As I understand things DOTA2 is still in a beta state, by a company that actually knows what the means. They simply decided to charge access while the game is still under construction, probably to avoid the epic Valve wait time. Having looked at it when I bought the Christmas pack (haven't played it yet) just reading the stuff on it seemed to make it pretty clear that it wasn't a finished product.
THAT said, the reason why MOBAs are so inaccessible is because they are competitive games, where those who play them seriously are usually pursueing rankings and such. It's actually counter-productive for people to teach new players that they do not know personally and team with constantly how to play, because as much as you might weigh them down in a match where you join randomly, teaching your competition what to do is even worse, and if your not directly allied with them then you are their competition.
It's just like PVP in other games where people oftentimes keep a tight lid on their techniques, builds, etc... except in a MOBA there is nothing but PVP, you don't even have a PVE component to build from. The community reflects this.
To be brutally honest I'll also say that no tutorial is going to teach you how to PVP or play a video game competitively. Knowlege, and talent, are two entirely differant things, and there is no way your ever going to equalize someone who is inherantly good at this kind of game with someone who isn't. What's more no amount of theory is going to help you when it comes to actually dealing with other players, no bot can teach you, simply the way people move around is something a bot is never going to really be able to do the same way.
I'll also say something fairly contreversial here. Despite attempts to police competitive games, no company has yet to ever dedicate the manpower and resources needed to doing it right, this is one of the reasons why despite some high profile smackdowns in FPS, MOBA, and other kinds of games, the behavior continues and proliferates. Basically if you complain you get fed into a queue with tons of other people, and at the end of the day as long as they are making money the guys running the game don't care, the cheaters are paying customers too, so unless they actually get enough complaints to investigate and happen to actually catch the guy in the process (which might not be easy to recognize, depending on what they are doing) nothing happens, which of course ultimatly works to make the newbs on the receiving end of this even more frustrated, especially seeing as they are taken less seriously.
To put it bluntly, whether it's MMO PVP, a FPS, or an MOBA, chances are if you wind up getting constantly torn to bits by people you can't even see, or land a hit on if you can, the guys doing it ARE cheating or exploiting. The differance is that nobody takes you seriously as a new player, and you probably don't know enough about the game to really make a coherant complaint about what happened. After all there are ways to justify incredible kills happening legitimatly, but when they happen constantly... well, that's less likely.
In general I do not play games like this very often, but when I do the real "differance" usually occurs when you fall in with a group of people for a while, even if not an official alliance (it could just be a few hours with a random group that stays together one night), things slow down, and you get the abillity to look behind the curtain somewhat. Then it becomes easier to figure out who is cheating, and actually to avoid them, because even if you still suck it becomes possible to tell what a given character/spec/weapon should be able to do.
You also, on top of everything else, and aside from the cheating, need to understand that every new player needs to be willing to put in their "victim time" unless you come in with an established alliance of some sort. In general the longer the game has been around, the longer you should expect this to go on... we're talking months here, not days. Simply put wen veteran players who are good are still learning new things and adapting to change (and improving) you as a newb are not going to suddenly just play a few weeks and then bump past a magical curve and become good at the game (this can happen with very talented players, but not for the average player). In general this tends to mean that the more established a game becomes, the less approachable it is.
That said if you stick with it long enough eventually you'll develop the same kind of elitist mentality even if you kind of suck. To put it bluntly, the biggest contribution to ranked PVP by newbs is giving the veterans someone to grind to "repair" their Kill/Death ratio after a bad streak against other veteran players. You'll actually be fairly grateful for it when you get to a certain point, and even find it amusing when you know you suck overall but to hear newbies talk about you like your the god of death or whatever.
THAT said, the reason why MOBAs are so inaccessible is because they are competitive games, where those who play them seriously are usually pursueing rankings and such. It's actually counter-productive for people to teach new players that they do not know personally and team with constantly how to play, because as much as you might weigh them down in a match where you join randomly, teaching your competition what to do is even worse, and if your not directly allied with them then you are their competition.
It's just like PVP in other games where people oftentimes keep a tight lid on their techniques, builds, etc... except in a MOBA there is nothing but PVP, you don't even have a PVE component to build from. The community reflects this.
To be brutally honest I'll also say that no tutorial is going to teach you how to PVP or play a video game competitively. Knowlege, and talent, are two entirely differant things, and there is no way your ever going to equalize someone who is inherantly good at this kind of game with someone who isn't. What's more no amount of theory is going to help you when it comes to actually dealing with other players, no bot can teach you, simply the way people move around is something a bot is never going to really be able to do the same way.
I'll also say something fairly contreversial here. Despite attempts to police competitive games, no company has yet to ever dedicate the manpower and resources needed to doing it right, this is one of the reasons why despite some high profile smackdowns in FPS, MOBA, and other kinds of games, the behavior continues and proliferates. Basically if you complain you get fed into a queue with tons of other people, and at the end of the day as long as they are making money the guys running the game don't care, the cheaters are paying customers too, so unless they actually get enough complaints to investigate and happen to actually catch the guy in the process (which might not be easy to recognize, depending on what they are doing) nothing happens, which of course ultimatly works to make the newbs on the receiving end of this even more frustrated, especially seeing as they are taken less seriously.
To put it bluntly, whether it's MMO PVP, a FPS, or an MOBA, chances are if you wind up getting constantly torn to bits by people you can't even see, or land a hit on if you can, the guys doing it ARE cheating or exploiting. The differance is that nobody takes you seriously as a new player, and you probably don't know enough about the game to really make a coherant complaint about what happened. After all there are ways to justify incredible kills happening legitimatly, but when they happen constantly... well, that's less likely.
In general I do not play games like this very often, but when I do the real "differance" usually occurs when you fall in with a group of people for a while, even if not an official alliance (it could just be a few hours with a random group that stays together one night), things slow down, and you get the abillity to look behind the curtain somewhat. Then it becomes easier to figure out who is cheating, and actually to avoid them, because even if you still suck it becomes possible to tell what a given character/spec/weapon should be able to do.
You also, on top of everything else, and aside from the cheating, need to understand that every new player needs to be willing to put in their "victim time" unless you come in with an established alliance of some sort. In general the longer the game has been around, the longer you should expect this to go on... we're talking months here, not days. Simply put wen veteran players who are good are still learning new things and adapting to change (and improving) you as a newb are not going to suddenly just play a few weeks and then bump past a magical curve and become good at the game (this can happen with very talented players, but not for the average player). In general this tends to mean that the more established a game becomes, the less approachable it is.
That said if you stick with it long enough eventually you'll develop the same kind of elitist mentality even if you kind of suck. To put it bluntly, the biggest contribution to ranked PVP by newbs is giving the veterans someone to grind to "repair" their Kill/Death ratio after a bad streak against other veteran players. You'll actually be fairly grateful for it when you get to a certain point, and even find it amusing when you know you suck overall but to hear newbies talk about you like your the god of death or whatever.
Honestly, I think the hardest thing about Dota is finding a character you don't suck with.
Mine is Riki
I've only just started playing and I've gotten really comfortable with the way the character plays. Once you've done that, everything else just kind of falls into place over time.
Mine is Riki
I've only just started playing and I've gotten really comfortable with the way the character plays. Once you've done that, everything else just kind of falls into place over time.
HoN actually has a tutorial now! It's alright, I guess. It doesn't really teach any acronyms or jargon of the game, but it does the job. Because of it, I can actually play a MOBA game instead of running back and forth between my towers. That being said, I still suck at MOBA games.Keoul said:
It's really odd, MOBA communities really suck. In Starcraft 2, there are a bunch of MOBA mods in the arcade mode but no one will help you learn the game. People will help you in literally every single other mod type, even the more complicated ones.
Don't expect official tutorials on these high profile games to give you the slightest hint of what to do, the games are complex as hell with the high competitive nature people bring into it.
If you want to know how to play then Youtube is your only hope, and what you learned about X hero today might be completely wrong in the next patch, that is how these games move.
If you want to know how to play then Youtube is your only hope, and what you learned about X hero today might be completely wrong in the next patch, that is how these games move.
I usually advocate for new players to pick one character they like, and stick with it. By extension, you learn the mechanics of the game and the roles heroes play as you get good with your one guy.Daystar Clarion said:Honestly, I think the hardest thing about Dota is finding a character you don't suck with.
Mine is Riki
I've only just started playing and I've gotten really comfortable with the way the character plays. Once you've done that, everything else just kind of falls into place over time.
I usually recommend people start with a carry (like Riki). I think those times that you get fed and pull off ultra kills or rampages are the hook that make you come back, I think last hitting and/or denying is easier when you're playing a carry, and I think that the fairly simple job of being a carry (i.e., kill the scariest guys first, then kill everyone else) is easier for new players than playing an initiator or support.
Skeleton King is another recommendation I make for newer players. Very simple spells, lots of survivability paired with pretty decent damage output, and once you get an armlet you can essentially just use the attack command once and have your character walk into a team fight. Get up, go to the bathroom, maybe eat a sandwich, come back and then push the enemy base after you've killed everyone on the other team.
If Valve saying that dota 2's beta stage is over isn't enough to convince people, I don't know what will.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/01/get-dota-2-now-using-paid-for-early-access-pass/
For everyone suggesting guides like that's the solution to cutting through the sheer head-crushing complexity of the game, it's just not enough. A guide will tell you to build BKB on Sven, a guide probably won't tell you that Beastmaster's ult goes through BKB and will kill you despite you being immune to magic. There's nothing intuitive about dota, it truly is a game for the crustiest of neckbeards with the most cheeto-stained fingers. An intuitive game would let you learn how shit works by, you know, fucking around in the game... not handing you an encyclopedia on the way in and patting you on the butt for good luck.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/01/get-dota-2-now-using-paid-for-early-access-pass/
Good on them for shoring up the servers though because right now they are straight up badonkey.
For everyone suggesting guides like that's the solution to cutting through the sheer head-crushing complexity of the game, it's just not enough. A guide will tell you to build BKB on Sven, a guide probably won't tell you that Beastmaster's ult goes through BKB and will kill you despite you being immune to magic. There's nothing intuitive about dota, it truly is a game for the crustiest of neckbeards with the most cheeto-stained fingers. An intuitive game would let you learn how shit works by, you know, fucking around in the game... not handing you an encyclopedia on the way in and patting you on the butt for good luck.
Windcaler said:
Isn't the idea of a Beta to complain about what does and does not work so the devs can make adjustments? Just saying, writing off peoples genuine frustrates and 'suck it up' does the whole concept a disservice and will ultimately cause the final release of DOTA 2 to be flawed and inaccessible. And for the record, a game can be hard and not hold the players hand but still be accessible, however, a game that REQUIRES random groups of people to work together needs a minimum level of understad in all players or it becomes a rage feast on people trying to get up to par. If you need to read a how to play guide at the very start then it is work (or an omission by the game corrected by players), not a game. How to play guides for top teir play is acceptable as it is top teir for a reason.
OT: As for me I am a vetern of LOL and find some of the mechanics of DOTA a bit broken (last hitting is hard when your minions do more damage than your dps and deaths can shut you down due to lost gold, making comebacks or catch ups harder in a dominated lane). Still enjoy playing, but it does frustrate me far too much for me to play often or as seriously as LOL.
Well, I played DOTA2 myself for a bit. I did some reading before I played, watched some videos and all that. I went into a game vs the AI with quite a bit of confidence. However I got in and found it more difficult. I asked people about what I'm meant to do and how I build things and that it was my very first game. I didn't get any help or any advice. Just got told "OMG DON'T FEED NOOB" and that was it. Then suddenly 5 minutes later everyone has left the game and I'm the only one there. I tried to play again but it had the same result. The game is still in Beta so it isn't finished. I may come back to it when it is.
That's the main problem with DOTA 2, but I have no qualms with it yet because technically the game is still in Beta, and will likely remain in Beta until they finish some things mechanics-wise and finish releasing the 8-12 heroes that still haven't been released in the new version. DOTA 2 is notably difficult to get into because it lacks proper tutorials systems. I mean, look at games like Rise of Immortals and League of Legends. They implement specialized tutorial scenarios that allow new players to understand how the game works, how it plays, and what they're expected to do. All DOTA 2 has as of right now is the ability to play against bots, and said bots are actually fairly decent at the game so there's still a possibility that someone who is severely inexperienced or not very good at MOBAs could still be beaten without learning anything.
All a player who enters the Beta can do now is attempt to search the internet for tutorials or guides. Sadly, DOTA 2 lacks the widespread coverage that other big MOBAs like HoN and LoL have simply because the playerbase is so small and typically centers around those who have played the game for a while, or players of the previous DOTA or other MOBAs.
Despite the bleak outlook, there are several resources that can help out new players. DotaCinema, arguably one of the biggest mainstream DOTA 2 coverage entities, does several guides for several heroes and mechanics that should teach new players the basics. There are also channels that do gameplay commentary that also illustrate major points about the game that are good learning resources, such as Alan from GamingHoldDOTA2 or Purge from Purgegamers. Totalbiscuit is also addressing this phenomena with his hyper-incompetent single draft disaster series, where he as a semi-inexperienced DOTA 2 player plays the Single Draft mode (in which you choose 1 of 3 randomly selected strength, agility, or intelligence heroes) and then proceeds to choose his item build solely based off of the recommended items list that was created by the developers. While the gameplay is subpar and the titular incompetence is prevalent, the experiment itself has good intentions, and is interesting.
All a player who enters the Beta can do now is attempt to search the internet for tutorials or guides. Sadly, DOTA 2 lacks the widespread coverage that other big MOBAs like HoN and LoL have simply because the playerbase is so small and typically centers around those who have played the game for a while, or players of the previous DOTA or other MOBAs.
Despite the bleak outlook, there are several resources that can help out new players. DotaCinema, arguably one of the biggest mainstream DOTA 2 coverage entities, does several guides for several heroes and mechanics that should teach new players the basics. There are also channels that do gameplay commentary that also illustrate major points about the game that are good learning resources, such as Alan from GamingHoldDOTA2 or Purge from Purgegamers. Totalbiscuit is also addressing this phenomena with his hyper-incompetent single draft disaster series, where he as a semi-inexperienced DOTA 2 player plays the Single Draft mode (in which you choose 1 of 3 randomly selected strength, agility, or intelligence heroes) and then proceeds to choose his item build solely based off of the recommended items list that was created by the developers. While the gameplay is subpar and the titular incompetence is prevalent, the experiment itself has good intentions, and is interesting.
As someone who started with the original DotA, my final word is that DotA2 is for purists who want the "original" MOBA experience, non-existant tutorial and all, while LoL is for people wanting to learn the genre and have fun while doing it. In short, if you wanna play DotA2, start with LoL because LoL has a good learning curve, not a brick wall like DotA2 has.
the game is still in beta
i've played hundreds of games and only ran into a handful of vile players. Most have been neutral with another handful of helpful players.
i've played hundreds of games and only ran into a handful of vile players. Most have been neutral with another handful of helpful players.