DOTA 2: "Sorry, no new people welcome"

[Tanakh]

I agree actually, plus anyone that knows about it can take advantage of it. In a minor way, but they can none the less.

I was just using it as an example, it's something a new player doesn't need to know and yet it's one of the biggest mechanical differences you're likely to find between WC3 DOTA and DOTA 2.

I was more impressed by the phase + crit or bash in dota 2! Madness!! Still... with how strong tranquil boots are it seems nobody phase anymore.

Also, the crit part has a design philosophy behind, something like "by skewering the random procs distribution over time you prevent from RNG to make or break the game while still allowing it to have some effect". I think it's bs because if they wanted to bring RNG under control that stupid skill called backtrack wouldn't exsist.

 

[Lyri]

http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=64215

So, after playing DOTA 2 for an hour, becoming royally confused with...EVERYTHING, and not understanding a single thing in the game aside from the stuff I scraped together from trial and error (And there was a LOT of error), I decided to look online as to why the tutorial wasn't accessible to me, and what arbitrary bull I had to do to unlock it.

Turns out, that's just a placehold, and there really isn't a tutorial or any real help in the game at all.

Now, Valve, as a new player to this game, I have to ask one question:
[HEADING=2]WHY?![/HEADING]

I'm sorry, but in a game as big as this, with passes so widespread that its as accessible as fresh air, why isn't there any kind of system to allow me to learn this stuff outside of the one button which seemingly does nothing outside of coo you in so that it can knee you in the balls most more effectively!

I'd take a tutorial, a guide, a Japanese VCR Instruction Manual over knowing nothing in a game as in-depth as this, especially seeing how this is the FIRST game like this I have ever played (Long story, first gaming computer here). And now, because I was so broken by my first game, I don't WANT to learn now because my brain is so haggard from the ass-whooping I received.

So, people who understand DOTA: Next time a new guy appears and messes it up for everyone, don't blame him, he's just a lamb going into the grinder of his own volition.

And people with no understanding but are interested: Find friends, find a guide, find SOMETHING outside of the game to help you, or else you're in for the longest hour.

Anyway, if you'll excuse me, I need to faint from fatiebgbgbgbgbgbgbgbgbgbg-

Lets set the record straight shall we?

The game is still in it's beta phase and the tutorials won't be released until the actual game is released, valve have already said as much.
There is however a wealth of information on how to play DotA from the previous years it has actually been around, the tutorials that Valve will be implementing are incredibly, incredibly basic things like how to last hit with certain heroes (think mini challenges, get 100 last hits with x hero with good base damage, next 100 with Y hero who has worse base damage).

If you really want to practice you can create a lobby and play with bots until your hearts content, no need to go rushing into match making.

Anyway,

Shameless plug time.

[HEADING=1]Escapist DotA2 User Group[/HEADING] [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/DotA-2]
Click it and join the rest of us.

 

[Bocaj2000]

snip

I felt the same way at first. The only reasons that I ever could get into games such as this and LoL is because I had friends coach me and guide me.

The problem is that these games take forty minutes to an hour on average. These games are also the least new player friendly games I have ever seen. If I were to make a suggestion, try out Bloodline Champions. It's more friendly to new players and the games are only five minutes at most. BLC is actually the most new player friendly MOBA that I know of, so definitely give it a go.

 

[regalphantom]

The one thing I'm finding surprising are the number of people complaining about the community in DotA. When I was gifted a key I found the other players surprisingly helpful, they politely game me suggestions for how to improve and there have only been a few times where I've seen players acting rudely, and those times they seem to regularly be reported. After deciding to try a game of LoL, all I have to say, when comparing the two communities, is wow. Then again, I have limited myself to only North American servers, so that might be part of why I've never had any issues.

 

[Bocaj2000]

it's a beta, deal with it.

And going into ANY moba game without at least reading up on basics is just retarded. Don't want to read a wiki because it was written by someone else, but you want a tutorial?

Who the fuck you think would make the tutorial? Jesus?

It's people like you that drive players away from the games you love. Wanting a tutorial for the most unforgiving multiplayer game anyone has seen is quite common. If it weren't for my friends teaching me the basics of playing such as zoning, initiating, and ganking, I'd be on the same boat as the poor OP here.

 

[Fasckira]

I tried playing DOTA2 last night, having never played any MOBA game before. It was pretty unforgiving, thats for sure!

I went a drow ranger as the time ran out as I was trying to read about each character. I then spent 1/2 hour getting killed repeatedly by everything except these little goblin things, baffled as to why I had to go so close to fire arrows and generally wondering what the hell was going on. Character levelled up pretty quickly but I think my ratio was 2/13/1 before I eventually packed it in.

Might try again tonight, but try and really get to grips with it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's people like you that drive players away from the games you love. Wanting a tutorial for the most unforgiving multiplayer game anyone has seen is quite common. If it weren't for my friends teaching me the basics of playing such as zoning, initiating, and ganking, I'd be on the same boat as the poor OP here.

It is far, far, far from the most unforgiving multiplayer game anyone has ever seen. The issue with DOTA isn't tricky mechanics or a terrifying learning curve. The issue with DOTA is fans of DOTA who somehow became convinced that DOTA was a hardcore gamer's wet dream and insist on plumping it up as the most difficult undertaking man has ever set out upon.

The game's reputation seriously overshadows the reality. You're 100% correct that Douchey McDoucheCanoes who scream at new players and demand they memorize 500 pages of wiki before setting foot in a game are a problem, but you're also a problem if you contribute to this mythology that DOTA is a black pit of horror that devours casual gamers. For all their content depth, MOBAs...like team shooters in the COD/BF/PS vein...are very noob friendly. You need very little skill or knowledge to jump in and muck about and have some fun. There's maybe one or two counter-intuitive things to learn and you're more or less set. Will you have mastered the game? Of course not. Is there a reasonably high skill cap? Of course there is. But there's no sense in talking it up like you need to be a grandmaster pro-gamer to start playing it. The matchmaker is going to pit you against 5 other dolts who have no idea what's going on, and you learn by doing.

 

[mooncalf]

The tutorial will come along when the game stops changing (it is in beta after all.)
I've played 1000+ hours and still feel like I'm barely holding my own. People will yell (IMO HoN is worse) but it's to be expected in a game where mistakes can so rapidly snowball into horrible losses, no one player will ever feel secure and in control unless the whole team is keeping up their end.
That sense of always having more to learn, and the pressure of the community, is just the nature of the game, it's okay if it's not for you. Done right it's quite sublime IMO!

 

[DasDestroyer]

Beside that, Warcraft III DOTA and DOTA 2 aren't as different as you think in terms of mechanics. For instance, do you know what the pseudo-random mechanic is in DOTA 2? No, you do not, and yet it is one of the most major differences between WCIII DOTA and DOTA 2 you can find strictly in terms of gameplay. It is not something a new player should or needs to worry about.

The only other difference I can think of off the top of my head is which spells Rubick can steal(which is arguably more important that pseudorandom), such as transformation spells like Alchemist's or Lycan's ult or, iirc, being able to steal any one of the 3 Shadowrazes, rather than stealing the middle one regardless.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I've played 1000+ hours and still feel like I'm barely holding my own.

If the matchmaker is worth a wet fart that feeling will never go away. It was the same with SC2. Any highly tuned matchmaker will constantly be slamming you against opponents slightly better than the ones you faced in your last victory, which means you should constantly be running into stiff challenges regardless of whether you just started the game yesterday or you've been playing for 5 years. I simultaneously applaud and loathe such matchmakers. Applaud them because they offer an ideal competitive experience. Loathe them because it makes playing the game really fucking stressful if you're fussed about winning.

 

[Vegosiux]

Beside that, there are more than enough guides out there on the internet. To be completely frank: if you're not able or willing to search out one of these guides and you expect everything to be spoonfed to you, don't even bother letting DOTA 2 eat up space on your hard drive. You'll never enjoy it and you'll never become remotely competent at it.

I'm sorry, but the only difference between a tutorial and an external guide is that the spoonfeeding comes from the pot that's slightly to your left as opposed to the one right in front of you.

You still didn't cook your own dinner.

 

[Rastien]

http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=64215

So, after playing DOTA 2 for an hour, becoming royally confused with...EVERYTHING, and not understanding a single thing in the game aside from the stuff I scraped together from trial and error (And there was a LOT of error), I decided to look online as to why the tutorial wasn't accessible to me, and what arbitrary bull I had to do to unlock it.

Turns out, that's just a placehold, and there really isn't a tutorial or any real help in the game at all.

Now, Valve, as a new player to this game, I have to ask one question:
[HEADING=2]WHY?![/HEADING]

I'm sorry, but in a game as big as this, with passes so widespread that its as accessible as fresh air, why isn't there any kind of system to allow me to learn this stuff outside of the one button which seemingly does nothing outside of coo you in so that it can knee you in the balls most more effectively!

I'd take a tutorial, a guide, a Japanese VCR Instruction Manual over knowing nothing in a game as in-depth as this, especially seeing how this is the FIRST game like this I have ever played (Long story, first gaming computer here). And now, because I was so broken by my first game, I don't WANT to learn now because my brain is so haggard from the ass-whooping I received.

So, people who understand DOTA: Next time a new guy appears and messes it up for everyone, don't blame him, he's just a lamb going into the grinder of his own volition.

And people with no understanding but are interested: Find friends, find a guide, find SOMETHING outside of the game to help you, or else you're in for the longest hour.

Anyway, if you'll excuse me, I need to faint from fatiebgbgbgbgbgbgbgbgbgbg-

Correct me if Im wrong but Dota2 is still in beta isnt it? Meaning there are still things to be done in it before its ready for a full realease. If there is no turotiral I completely agree they need to add that fast. Planetside 2 is a good example of a game starting without a tutorial and its thoroughly confusing nature making a lot of people leave because they literally didnt know what they were doing.

Basicly what Im saying is because the games in beta you cant complain. Beta is beta, by definition the game is still unfinished. However feel free to criticize and suggest improvements

This, unfortuntley the game is still in beta, not to mention the usual hostile moba community doesn't help , if you want to learn this game from scratch your gonna need 2 things.

1. Someone to mentor you, otherwise you are going to have a really rough time.
2. Watch tutorials and videos on youtube they are going to be needed.

Good luck bro i'm all for new players coming to dota, but you're in for a rough time and a learning curve that isn't so much a curve as a vertical ascent.

 

[Bocaj2000]

It's people like you that drive players away from the games you love. Wanting a tutorial for the most unforgiving multiplayer game anyone has seen is quite common. If it weren't for my friends teaching me the basics of playing such as zoning, initiating, and ganking, I'd be on the same boat as the poor OP here.

It is far, far, far from the most unforgiving multiplayer game anyone has ever seen. The issue with DOTA isn't tricky mechanics or a terrifying learning curve. The issue with DOTA is fans of DOTA who somehow became convinced that DOTA was a hardcore gamer's wet dream and insist on plumping it up as the most difficult undertaking man has ever set out upon.

The game's reputation seriously overshadows the reality. You're 100% correct that Douchey McDoucheCanoes who scream at new players and demand they memorize 500 pages of wiki before setting foot in a game are a problem, but you're also a problem if you contribute to this mythology that DOTA is a black pit of horror that devours casual gamers. For all their content depth, MOBAs...like team shooters in the COD/BF/PS vein...are very noob friendly. You need very little skill or knowledge to jump in and muck about and have some fun. There's maybe one or two counter-intuitive things to learn and you're more or less set. Will you have mastered the game? Of course not. Is there a reasonably high skill cap? Of course there is. But there's no sense in talking it up like you need to be a grandmaster pro-gamer to start playing it. The matchmaker is going to pit you against 5 other dolts who have no idea what's going on, and you learn by doing.

I misspoke. I meant to say "the least noob-friendly game I have ever played." I was just trying to match exaggeration with exaggeration.

The reason that DOTA and LOL aren't noob friendly is because they do nothing to introduce the player to core mechanics. The fact that I had to ask my friend what strength does in DOTA means that the game has failed in a core element of interactivity- clarity. These MOBAs pretty much require numerous hours spent in learning, whether from tutorials or trial and error, before being competent. Knowledge of the game plays a much larger role for a noob than trial-by-fire skills such as positioning and skill-shots. But this can all be surpassed under normal circumstances. What makes these MOBAs different from other games is has nothing to do with their learning curve.

You see, it's not just that the game is too deep; it is that the game is designed to punish new players and the team that hosts them. I refer to "feeding", a mechanic that makes the games the least noob-friendly games I know about. When feeding occurs, there is an enemy with more gold than he knows what to do with and a team-mate who has been spending too much time dead to be useful. In a sense, team fights feel more like a 6v4 than a 5v5. So because one person doesn't know anything past the basics your entire team suffers and the 40 minutes was a waste and didn't really test anyone's skills.

Contrast this to a shooter where all you have to do is choose your load-out. At that point you have to adjust to the pace of the shooter and learn the maps. If you happen to do poorly, then your team might feel like they are one man down but don't give the enemy any more of an unfair advantage (COD as a exception). So different FPSs require a large amount of skill to be learned to be competent but not a lot of knowledge; contrast this to MOBAs. For a MOBA, you need to learn item builds and feel comfortable with character abilities, and for a shooter, you need a good eye and reflex. They are two contrasting game types.

With all of this said, I like these two MOBAs. I played them for about two years, but stopped once I found BLC, which doesn't have the problems that I saw in LoL and DotA. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I was pumping up thy myth that DotA 2 is teh hardezt gaem eva; it just lies in the hardest genre ever. However, I'm glad to see that the game companies are making efforts to help out the new players. Riot has pages of tutorials and Valve plans to add things to help out new players as well. I must applaud them for making the necessary knowledge available.

 

[Twilight_guy]

To be fair, TF2 didn't have a tutorial either... Portal was one extended tutorial. Maybe they think only MOBA players would be interested in the game?

 

[archaicmalevolence]

Yeah, I do and its bullfuckingshit! Pseudorandom my arse, I want my crit chances to be the freaking percentage they say they are from the first hit. Effing efforth to have random shit not proccing on the first couple of hits...

I agree actually, plus anyone that knows about it can take advantage of it. In a minor way, but they can none the less.

I was just using it as an example, it's something a new player doesn't need to know and yet it's one of the biggest mechanical differences you're likely to find between WC3 DOTA and DOTA 2.

I thought both DOTA 1 and 2 both use PRD on relevant skills.

Anyways, OT: If anyone really intends to learn about a game like DOTA, it just takes time. I'd argue the best way to learn is to just play public games, or better yet with bots. I remember back when I started this game around eight years ago, I was horrendous at it and people told me that. So I just practiced and aimed to get better, although I'm pretty damn persistent.

The problem being with DOTA is that it's possible for one person to lose the game for the other four. Oh yeah, don't always trust the recommended items.

 

[buttfucker911]

Putting in my 2 cents;

For me it comes down to mechanics. DotA 2 has a lot of them. However, I also find most of the mechanics incredibly frustrating and time consuming. Denying, while yes it offers tactical advantage, also doubles the work involved in last hitting (as you have to watch for them trying to deny while still stopping their last hits instead of just last hitting and poking) it also strikes me as something that just makes DotA 2 just that much harder to get into. LoL has a lot of stuff streamlined, at least at the beginner/bots tier (most of the shenanigans only show up when people are doing premades) and is still incredibly difficult for most people to get started on. It isn't easy learning to play a moba, and depending on how much time you have, and how much you want it to go into one game is an important thing to decide before diving too deep.

Hence, I play LoL. I enjoy my other games and activities far too much to try and keep up with DotA.

Also, I just like the champion style/feel in LoL better. Where can you play a character with the single most powerful taunt/bait skill as an emote? That's right, LoL (I'm talking about Lux's laugh btw, sometime around her "totally an ultimate with a legitimate timer").

Why is denying always brought up as a negative aspect of dota? It's actually incredibly useful as a tool to re-establish lane equilibrium in your favor and it's easy as hell to do, you don't even have to look up a guide about it because in your first game you'll see your lane partner do it and say "oh, he just denied the enemy some gold and experience, that's pretty nifty". Hell, even the bots in the game do it, and they're pretty great at it I might add. In spite of all that though, it's not a huge thing you have to constantly be doing, even in pro games most players will only have a number of denies in the single digits.

Also seconding everyone saying you should find some friends to play with, don't rely on guides since they have a tendency to be wrong or inaccurate, plus I can't imagine anything less fun than solo queueing.

 

[eventhorizon525]

Putting in my 2 cents;

For me it comes down to mechanics. DotA 2 has a lot of them. However, I also find most of the mechanics incredibly frustrating and time consuming. Denying, while yes it offers tactical advantage, also doubles the work involved in last hitting (as you have to watch for them trying to deny while still stopping their last hits instead of just last hitting and poking) it also strikes me as something that just makes DotA 2 just that much harder to get into. LoL has a lot of stuff streamlined, at least at the beginner/bots tier (most of the shenanigans only show up when people are doing premades) and is still incredibly difficult for most people to get started on. It isn't easy learning to play a moba, and depending on how much time you have, and how much you want it to go into one game is an important thing to decide before diving too deep.

Hence, I play LoL. I enjoy my other games and activities far too much to try and keep up with DotA.

Also, I just like the champion style/feel in LoL better. Where can you play a character with the single most powerful taunt/bait skill as an emote? That's right, LoL (I'm talking about Lux's laugh btw, sometime around her "totally an ultimate with a legitimate timer").

Why is denying always brought up as a negative aspect of dota? It's actually incredibly useful as a tool to re-establish lane equilibrium in your favor and it's easy as hell to do, you don't even have to look up a guide about it because in your first game you'll see your lane partner do it and say "oh, he just denied the enemy some gold and experience, that's pretty nifty". Hell, even the bots in the game do it, and they're pretty great at it I might add. In spite of all that though, it's not a huge thing you have to constantly be doing, even in pro games most players will only have a number of denies in the single digits.

Also seconding everyone saying you should find some friends to play with, don't rely on guides since they have a tendency to be wrong or inaccurate, plus I can't imagine anything less fun than solo queueing.

Yes, it is a useful tool. It is also a pain in the ass for people like me who aren't focusing on entirely one game. Getting every last hit, harassing the enemy champion while being map aware and ready to converge on someone out of position is enough for me. I'm not always that good at mobas, and having another dimension that I'd ultimately have to learn to stay relevant if I played enough that complicates last hitting (which can already be a bother in some situations) doesn't sound all that appealing.

I also find having to work with the AI more and knowing when to push (given it is really hard to stop minions pushing on a whim) more interesting as a macro rather than the more mirco of last hitting my own minions as well.

Also, I find DotA 2 can easily snowball harder (from what I've seen), which gets rather tiring. Losing gold on death when I'm already effectively losing gold by dying (can't last hit) as well as weakening my teams position seems like plenty.

If I spent more time in mobas, I would try DotA 2 more, but given almost all of my friends do LoL as well, that isn't really happening.

 

[Tanakh]

The issue with DOTA is fans of DOTA who somehow became convinced that DOTA was a hardcore gamer's wet dream and insist on plumping it up as the most difficult undertaking man has ever set out upon.

Not sure man, at it's highest level DotA is probably as complex as a game as chess, the only games that I know that are even harder are Go and SC (good RTS in general). Actually this year will be great for both the development of DotA and of SCII, so yay!

Then again, as chess you can be a noob and have fun with noobs like me. Actually i think we already had this conversation, lulz.

If the matchmaker is worth a wet fart that feeling will never go away. It was the same with SC2. Any highly tuned matchmaker will constantly be slamming you against opponents slightly better than the ones you faced in your last victory, which means you should constantly be running into stiff challenges regardless of whether you just started the game yesterday or you've been playing for 5 years. I simultaneously applaud and loathe such matchmakers. Applaud them because they offer an ideal competitive experience. Loathe them because it makes playing the game really fucking stressful if you're fussed about winning.

And that's the reason i can't play SCII, too fucking stressfull and challenging, DotA and LoL pale compared to that and stuff like Dark Souls or Demon Souls is a mere joke in difficulty.

-snip-

DotA always was pseudorandom (and by always I mean since i know it around 2008), DotA 2 however wasn't, the pseudorandom was added in a rather recent patch along with some fixes for some exploits.

Why is denying always brought up as a negative aspect of dota?

Because they are NOOBS! Noobs i say! Denying is indeed an amazing skill, useful in tons of different situations, one more tool to show your skill, also... it's not as if deny was even huge, even pros deny only 10-20 creeps a game usually.

OT: Again, if someone wants the basics tought, pm me, will have some time this week to teach the basics and while my english is not great, its good enough... so "hostile community" my arse. I have actually made more than a couple of friends around the world with DotA and DotA2.

 

[Aircross]

Also, I find DotA 2 can easily snowball harder (from what I've seen), which gets rather tiring. Losing gold on death when I'm already effectively losing gold by dying (can't last hit) as well as weakening my teams position seems like plenty.

LoL actually snowballs harder than DotA/Dota 2.

Everything in LoL scales while very few abilities in Dota 2 scale. Feed a Queen of Pain 4 kills and Scream of Pain is not going to do any more damage than what it's hard coded to do, and Scream of Pain's cooldown never changes. Feed an AP mid 4 kills and their abilities will be hitting harder and more frequent thanks to Ability Power, Cool Down Reduction, and Magic Penetration.

The stat per gold ratio for items in DotA decreases as item tier increases while stat per gold ratio for items in LoL increases as item tier increases: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34288821&postcount=4011

Gold loss on death is actually a mechanism that can prevent snowballing. The enemy's carry getting a little too much farm? Well, gank him/her several times and she won't be able to farm his/her items.