Drag queens: Yay or Nay?

[NoeL]

transgendered people who get offended by it are people who don't understand the point of it.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. It's not like they're portraying a negative stereotype of the opposite sex, they're just being outrageous for the fun of it. You shouldn't be getting butthurt by that.

 

[Lieju]

Snip

I think you're a bit confused. I've never claimed cross-dressing humor is inherently bad (do you even read my comments?), just that it needs to have more than just the fact that there's a guy in a dress.

And you went 'OH? SO SHOW ME SOME BAD CROSS-DRESSING COMEDY THEN!?"
For no apparent reason.

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Drag shows are fun, and i don't understand why people read into it so much. I see where the transsexuals are coming with the stereo type, but that's not drag stars fault. The ignorance of others are to be blamed, so don't blame the queens for it.

As a comparison, lets say a black person is walking down the street minding his own bushiness when all of a sudden some guy ask if hes good at rapping. Lets say this black man dislikes rap and hates it when random people assume he raps because hes black. Does he get upset with the random stranger who assumed hes a rapper cause hes black, or the other black rappers. In the case of transsexuals and people assuming there drag queens, getting upset at the drag queens is like this random black guy placing his anger and frustration on other black people who rap instead of the ignorance of others who assume hes a rapper.

Absolutely. I'll even go another line for you.

My cats don't look at what my finger is pointing to. They look at my finger. Getting mad because the cats look at my finger instead of the food I just put out for them is pointless. I need to move the cats to see the food instead of assuming that they'll follow my finger to their food. So I either learn to find a new way to tell them the food is in their bowls or I'll continue to be frustrated whenever I point at their food bowls, while the cats will be cats and go "yep, that there's a finger. Fingers. Mmmm. Hey, fingers sometimes scritch us under the chin. Maybe he wants us to get chin scritches."

I could theoretically get their attention by filling their food bowls and blowing an airhorn, but tapping their food bowls seems to get their attention better.

The same thing for the black person applies. He could be in a city or area where black people are not common, but when they do show up, it's usually because they're performing in that area, or there's a large number of music clubs catering to hiphop. Getting pissed off at black people for perpetuating a stereotype by rapping is completely illogical. It's far easier (and more direct) to tell said idiot people, "Damn straight I am! Hey, you must play banjo all day long on your porch! Maybe we could collaborate! Wait, you don't play banjo? no? Well, you're white, aren't you? I thought for sure you'd be into redneck country music!"

Don't try to change a cat from being a cat.
Teach the cat so it understands what you're telling it.

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Snip

I think you're a bit confused. I've never claimed cross-dressing humor is inherently bad (do you even read my comments?), just that it needs to have more than just the fact that there's a guy in a dress.

And you went 'OH? SO SHOW ME SOME BAD CROSS-DRESSING COMEDY THEN!?"
For no apparent reason.

Yeah. Pot, kettle much?

For the record, your comments take very little time to read. Or divest fully of their meaning.

Truth be told I only said you grabbed the lowest hanging fruit possible and then you held it up as an example of the typical schtick in comedy, which you then defended by citing pantomime as a primary source of British comedy for the rationalization of why you preferred it. And to which crossdressing as a gag only has a tenuous, if at all link to that particular genre, especially because the gender-bending clothing gag has been used in theatrical performances regardless of nationality since the age of Greek comedy and tragedy.

To which my reaction is "If you're serious, that's very, very sad. Also somewhat uninformed and rather narrow of scope and mind. If you're trolling, well played. But still kind of sad."

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

I like to look at it like this. Drag Queens make fun of some of the ridiculous clothing that society deems standard for women. I'm talking about stuff which is physically uncomfortable, restricting or damaging to wear, for example high heels. As well as being amusing to see men making themselves look effeminate, it raises awareness about the inequality of gender roles.

Plus, no way in hell would women put a Tony Award-winning musical together based on a UK factory changing production to make drag queen boots. Well, obviously some did, but the motivation (making Kinky Boots) would be more along the lines of Comfy Shoes, and I'm thinking it'd be a lot more guitar singer-songwriter and a lot less music-disco.

I mean, COME ON.

(and lyrics by Cyndi Lauper, no less. Damn.)

 

[KOMega]

Well, as long as they aren't doing anything out of malicious intent (like for the purposes of mocking someone, but not for the use of comedy) or are dressing in something dangerous, then I don't really care.

Unless it is my intent to get into their pants, what is in their pants is of no concern to me. In fact, screw the pants too. Didn't like them anyways.

Spoiler

edit: changed to an image, because I forgot how to use tags for a second.

 

[Angelowl]

Well, as long as they aren't doing anything out of malicious intent (like for the purposes of mocking someone, but not for the use of comedy) or are dressing in something dangerous, then I don't really care.

Unless it is my intent to get into their pants, what is in their pants is of no concern to me. In fact, screw the pants too. Didn't like them anyways.

Spoiler

http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/every-rose-has-its-thorn

Hahaha. Thanks for posting that, hopefully defusing the situation somewhat. That comic has some pretty good lessons in it. Honestly it reminds me of how my metal-head friends treat me. And doing martial arts myself... maybe I should try to dye my hair pink. XD

Agree with the sentiment, a persons genitals doesn't really matter unless it's for pro-creation. If you are flexible enough you can do most stuff with guys, girls and any in-betweens.

 

[ShipofFools]

Who cares? Does it affect your life in any way? Off course not!
Just stop caring about everything other people do, it'll calm you down.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm British. Drag is the closest thing we have to a national costume:

Suddenly, John Cleese appeared and made this thread awesome. Thank you, Gif-John.

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

Snip

Seems to me that most of your problems are rooted in the misrepresentation of your sub-culture. And on that note, I'm tempted to remind you that pretty much everyone gets misrepresented by other people, not just you. You're upset because you supposedly get lumped together with "the fetishist crowd" but not everyone belongs to the uneducated masses you referred to and can tell the difference between a street performer and a genuine transsexual.

I guess I don't even believe in the term 'genuine transsexual', but there it is. I don't really see myself changing that view, no matter how you suggest I do. I just don't acknowledge people as anything but the gender they were born into. And that's fine, you don't need my validation, the same way I don't crave yours. It's a simple difference in philosophy, and there's nothing wrong with that. You're free to be whatever "deviation" you want to be.

And yes, I did read a few of your posts, but I received no great revelation, lo' and behold.

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

Double post, please ignore.

 

[ThreeName]

Are you sure that he meant what he said in the strict and narrow interpretation that you are applying to what he said? I will agree with you that it was a poor choice of words, but if you are talking about Dan Savage, I believe that it is VERY likely that he was speaking from the context of his support network that specifically focuses on LGBT kids who frequently get bullied and abused not only by other kids but by their own families at home.

In other words he was talking about specifically the kids his organization helps. The ones that reach out for help. The ones that have a desperate need for someone on their side. I doubt he meant all kids everywhere.

Will you concede that people can say stupid things and still be a powerful and positive force for good?

Sure, but I can tell you're only saying this because you idolise him and his work, and that sort of irks me. Do actions speak louder than words? Yeah. Was it just a stupid slip of the tongue? Probably. Is he an arrogant, self-absorbed douche? Definitely.

I don't discount the work his organisation does. I just find him very representative of a latent hypocrisy and shallowness present in a lot of people in his position. Granted, that's probably par for the course. It's very hard to get such things done without a one-track mind, and like you said, and the end of the day it's ultimately worth it.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

By the way, yes, I?m only talking about drag queens. They do it for public performance, as opposed to crossdressers, who don?t necessarily have to be drag queens too and may just do it because they like it.

What I was saying is, it?s alright to laugh at the abnormal if it?s something that is so ridiculous that you?d never see in real-life. For example, a group of anthropomorphic pigs who act as superheroes that can fire lasers out of their eyes. That kind of random craziness can be funny. But something that people actually do and have to live with, and routinely face discrimination for it?I?m not sure I feel too comfortable about people, especially privileged men, using that as a form of trivial comedy. I mean, it could validly be compared to blackface. ?Look how funny these niggers act? compared to ?Look how funny these trannies act?. The difference is that, in modern society, racism is more of a hot-button topic than transphobia, which is rarely ever talked about in the media because they?re such a comparatively small minority.

And I?m saying this as a heterosexual cis male. I?m just trying to be a bit more empathic with other people and actually analysing what I and others around me do and say as a reflection of wider society. Sometimes you need to overthink some issues to gain a little perspective, and step out of your own brain a bit.

Although thedrunkenmonkey has some good points. No offence to anyone, but there are some members of any marginalised minority (whether they be LGBT, female, non-white, etc.) that tend to play the victim card far too much. I guess it would be better to target ire at those who lump transgender people and drag queens together, rather than drag queens themselves who haven?t even made a claim of nominating themselves as official trans spokespersons. Like how Louie Spence does not speak for all gay men, nor does Spike Lee speak for all black people.

I dont really get what is arousing about dressing like a woman. Is it that femininity is often sorta forbidden for guys? Is it some sort of getting aroused by degrading themselves by wearing female clothing (id be a bit offended at that mindset).

I guess you're talking about transvestic fetishists (or ?trans-chasers?, although I believe that?s deemed derogatory) here, right? Well, I guess, if a man is attracted to a woman, simulating that appearance through dress and/or make-up would presumably turn him on like looking at that woman will. A kind of autogynephilia, if you will. It would probably only be definitive degradation if it was part of a sissy fetish (or "forced feminisation", or whatever else it can be called; search it, if you like).

Then again, it could be anything they tell you. There doesn't seem to be that much logic or reason towards the numerous fetishes people can have. You just develop it; you can't help what you're attracted to. I doubt people that have rape fantasies actually want to be raped. They just like the roughness and power-play of a simulated situation like that.

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Think of it this way: There were two guys in my science class in senior year who said that they were thinking about going to prom as each others dates, as a joke. That is extremely offensive to probably every gay person who has experienced homophobia because it ridicules the idea of same-sex relationships and ignores the negative experiences gay people have because of prejudice. A lot of people in my class, including my teacher, thought it was offensive as well, yet how would they feel if they wanted to wear a dress out of jest? Not because they like dresses, but because they think its a joke somehow? I think that most would react as if it were a joke, and most likely most if not all opposition would be due to the fact not because its demeaning the troubles of another person, but because they'd be walking around with a hairy chest in a dress and would look disgusting.

Why the hell is that a problem for anyone but those guys? For all you know they wanted to go because they wanted to go to prom and not have to deal with the whole bullshit massive night out that prom has somehow become. You CHOSE to be offended by their statement. You didn't ask. You didn't find out. And maybe, just maybe, they're actually gay and tiptoeing around it by going, "fuck, I don't want to come out, but my friend is gay too, and maybe we'll just ha-ha it".

Maybe that's not the situation. But I'll never know, and it doesn't sound like you, or anyone else in that room took the time to find out. If two guys going to prom as each others' dates, as a joke or not, is such an issue, then perhaps the issue isn't with the two guys. Maybe it has a lot more to do with your school's culture.

Did you think of that? Obviously not, Mars. Mostly because you're focused on what YOU are offended by, not the internal workings and meanings of those people. It's more important that you're not offended than it is for these two guys to do what they want, which is the paradox posed by this question.

"I don't like it, therefore it's wrong and it shouldn't happen because it offends me."

Okay, so it offends you. Be offended. Feel free to be offended. Just don't expect anyone to change their choices to make you feel less offended.

No, not everybody. But most people. And here's the thing about that, "most people" comprises the majority of the population, which makes living more difficult for transpeople.

Here's a newsflash: this applies to everyone regardless of their sexual identity or gender issues. Most people are not me, therefore most people have vision different than mine. That's not unique to trans people. Do what most people do in this situation: COPE.

If you're even going to attempt to talk about transsexualism, you're going to have to learn the difference between "sex" and "gender", otherwise you'll never even be in the position to understand.

Pick one:
Biological versus mental
Gender is a choice, sex is biological
Gender is biological, sex is mental
Gender and sex are interchangeable
Sex is the act of sexual gratification, gender is the Plug A fits into Slot B
Any and all of the above because I refuse to define it
Any and all of the above because it's easier to make it nebulous than it is to establish my theory and just argue about what I like

 

[ThreeName]

It's rather presumptuous of you to say I idolize Dan Savage. You don't know me.

For me he falls into a rather broad category. He is human. I accept that he has flaws a weaknesses. I understand that I wont agree with everything he says or does. I do like him, because from what I've seen I agree with most of what he says or does; whereas I would understandably like him less if I didn't agree with his words and actions.

I do think his choice of words was unfortunate. It was short sighted and does ignore heterosexual kids that are abused. But, they are only words and only applicable to the instant or context they were uttered, unless he starts a campaign to somehow take resources from heterosexual support groups in order to divert them to his "It Gets Better" project.

Maybe it will help if I agree that Dan Savage has come off as an arrogant douche at times. Maybe you can pass some sort of sundry judgment on me because I don't expect too much (or more) from people.

Yeah, sorry, I was slightly inebriated when I wrote that, so I probably read a bit much into it. I like his actions, but not his words. I don't think you have to like someone to think what they do is right or good, and my complaints about him are purely personal.

I dunno, there's not much else to say here haha.

 

[Timmibal]

told status:
[]not told
[]told
[x]told lang syne

[x]the told and the restless

You... You're a special kind of awesome, and I think I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

*Citizen Kane applause*

 

[The Lunatic]

I can take a joke, so, I guess I've never been offended.

 

[Something Amyss]

I dunno, have you been disowned by your family because they think you're a drag queen, and despite all of your protests, they won't listen to what you have to say?

Now, now, you know that I'm not a drag queen. A little civility would be nice.

Not only have I lost friends and family over being trans, I have been assaulted, including being knifed. Which you know.

They classify a need as a want.

They do that for queers, too. Do you hate homosexuals in general, as well?

And when someone takes the spotlight and in some ways cast you in a negative light, and when you try to say otherwise to no avail, you're not exactly going to have a lot of respect for that person.

That's crap, and I honestly think you know it. Hence the preamble about how horrible you had it. Yes, people are fucking intolerant. And you know what? I've lost my share of friends over this (something you know) and still get so stressed out about dealing with my parents that suicide seems a valid alternative (which you ALSO know). That doesn't mean I feel I have a free pass to blame another group for one group's intolerance. I doubt any drag queen in the world has ever wronged you. You know who did? The majority. And instead of actually taking it to them, you're doing the exact wrong thing and blaming another group.


Just like homosexuals do to us. Do you like it when gays treat us negatively simply because we "make them look bad?" Or is that different because ponies?

but you can't tell me I don't have a legitimate grievance or two that might cause me to do so.

Actually, yes I can. Because you have no legitimate grievance against drag queens. The damage may have been done, but it wasn't the queens who did it. There is nobody to blame but the people who actually wronged you, and they are not drag queens. Unless your whole family is drag queens, then maybe.

And you know what? If we removed the stereotypes held by the people who are making these prejudicial assumptions, then there would be no problems. And the drag queens won't have changed at all. Because they're not doing anything wrong.

 

[Something Amyss]

Huh! You learn something new everyday!

You can't tell me what to do!

...Errr...Wait. That's not what you meant. Ummm....

User name probably doesn't help.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Huh! You learn something new everyday!

You can't tell me what to do!

...Errr...Wait. That's not what you meant. Ummm....

User name probably doesn't help.

Yes I can! You learn!

It's pretty misleading, alright. Then again, I'm not even a scientist so I can't point fingers.