Dragon Age II - Final Thoughts (Bioware interview)

[Jaded Scribe]

"we're not completely reverting our changes, but going to tweak the current system to find a happy medium"

Where in the interview does he ever enterain the idea of a happy medium? Seriously, give a specific example.

Potentially, it could go so far as letting you change to a certain class of armor, but keeping their visual style the same so that they maintain a consistency, even though you still have control over their inventory. These are all things for us to explore.

It's likely that we'll end up coming back to a way to equip your followers, but at the same time, I really do think that having their own visual signature is really important.

No, it's not denial. The internet is on fire, yes. But how much of those criticisms take on the exact attitude you accuse me of having: "your opinion is the only important one, so everyone should just pretend that people who don't share it don't really exist."

Let's take a look, and see if we can find any:

Those that are complaining very much give off the vibe of "there is no compromise. If BioWare doesn't completely revert any design choice I didn't like means they're assholes who don't care about the player base and they just fucking suck."

BioWare has to look past the flame wars. A lot of people are happy with the change. You can try to ignore that as much as you want. It doesn't change that fact. Is there more or less than those that criticize? I don't know. It gets furthered muddied by people who say "I hated changes x and y, but loved z" balancing with "I loved z, but hated x and y." BioWare has to take everything under consideration.

With only a month of being out, and most of the feedback degenerating into flame wars and the oh so useful "BioWare sucks", of course they aren't going to make a statement about reverting systems.

One way you can make your opinion seem more palatable is if you don't resort to ridiculous hyperbole and logical fallacies (please see "appeal to popularity") whenever challenged by a contradictory viewpoint.

There we are. Two quotes that treat the very idea DAII was a bad game as inherently uncivil and unworthy of consideration.[/quote]

Not at all. In the first quote, I am commenting on much of how many of the detractors I've seenportray themselves, and the amount of insipid name-calling most forum/comment threads degenerate into. Sorry, BioWare isn't going to look at "I hate DA2. BioWare fucking sucks now." That isn't useful. They're going to look at well-thought-out descriptions of problems found in the games.

You cannot deny that on the internet, there is a distinct lack of civility in many of the comments given. Those are the comments that I said BioWare will be looking past. Not the posts with actual substance to their criticisms.

The second was a quote from an entirely different user.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

I didn't see any of the stuff the OP was commenting about.

He never said they didn't make mistakes, he simply defended the choices the design team made. He even admits that a lot of things still need a lot of tuning. He simply states that the team is happy with the direction they're going, and are going to incorporate fan feedback without doing another 180. He even explicitly says at the end of the interview that player feedback is very important to them.

He says a number of things need improvement to continue the game's growth, especially in the combat area. Saying he's happy with where the game is going =/= not thinking anything needs to be changed or tuned.

The OP's definition of depth is different than other people's. What makes this so difficult is that the fan base tends to be fairly evenly divided (from actually talking with people, and not just reading the slams on forums). For every person that loves that companions have a unique, signature look rather than all looking the same, there's someone that really loved the control over companions' armor. And the OP seems to be completely ignoring the fact that Laidlaw said they are exploring ways to get the best of both worlds, where companions get a signature look and the player has some control over what they wear.

As for the tactical camera, it was a mechanics issue, and again, I didn't see him disregarding people's outcry to the changes, just standing by the direction the game is taking. I can see their point. I loved the more vast areas, and catering to (a) only PC/Mac players, and (b) only those that extensively used the tactical camera is not the way to go when you're dealing with a wide player base on multiple platforms, not all of whom use the tactical camera.

Game designers can't please everyone. There comes a point they have to say "This is where we're taking the game." This is not disregarding fans that dislike the changes, it's simply impossible to make everyone happy. What I gathered from the interview was "We're happy with where we're going, but we're taking everything into account. While we won't do another 180 and revert back to Origins, we're taking criticisms under advisement and looking for ways to create a middle ground that will bring the two sides together."

I really feel that people that react to this as "Just more proof the DA team sucks" are those that feel that their concerns override others who enjoyed the changes.

Wow. This. Well said, very well said. Thank you for a very well stated and articulate position, Jaded Scribe.

If I could remember where I put that link the to guy slow-clapping, I'd post it here. Anyone who agrees, feel free to post it. Because this deserves a slow, thoughtful clap.

Thank you

 

[0thello]

Heh I had bad feelings about Bioware ever since they let that moron Stanley Woo speak. His stupidity alone on the forums was enough for me to boycott buying DA2.

 

[fierydemise]

The most problematic line to me was:
"It has party members. It has banter. It has equipping stuff--some of those amazing, classic RPG mechanics that I loved since playing Wasteland or the original Bard's Tale."

What is missing from that list? Choices and consequences one of the early buzzwords of the cRPG. I can in some cases live with something that is mechanically less then ideal if the game gives me some good choices and consequences to whet my intellectual and emotion whistle. This is perhaps the most frustrating thing about the modern RPG, we've gotten to the point where we can can tell deep engaging stories and start actually having expressive on screen characters yet the modern RPG seems to be heavily downplaying the area where all that awesome new technology helps most.

That said I won't be giving up on Bioware because they do have some actual writers on staff who do sometimes produce some pretty awesome stuff. Bioware as one of the great RPG houses may be falling but Bioware as a company that can write some very good stories and voice acts them well will still be around and until someone better comes around that is enough for me to keep giving them my money.

 

[Darth IB]

I really feel that people that react to this as "Just more proof the DA team sucks" are those that feel that their concerns override others who enjoyed the changes.

This.
I think there was a ZP quote, about how fans will never be happy no matter what you do, that would fit very well here, but the exact wording eludes me.

Me, I thought Laidlaw seemed very agreeable and sensible in the interview. But then again, I thoroughly enjoyed DA2, so what do I know.

 

[Sulgoth]

I honestly think Mikes just bad at explaining the direction that was chosen, he makes it sound like it was an easy and un-calculated decision to have each character have their own specific outfit, it probably wasn't, the character designers probably wanted their characters to be seen while the game play and armor designers probably wanted the characters to be changeable to the players unique play style. There are things I don't like about DA2 but at the same time I can see where they were making tactical choices and changes based on their over all market, not the power gamer.

 

[Falseprophet]

Laidlaw's in a position where he has bosses looking over him, and the labour of dozens, probably hundreds of staff members to speak for. Name me three producers, project leads or devs who readily confessed their mistakes a mere week after release. At most, they might admit corners were cut due to time or budget constraints, and I have read an interview with Laidlaw where he admitted that about the recycled dungeons. No creator is going to trash their work this soon after release.

At this point, this team is a monolith against external crticism and they are not going to single out anyone for blame, if indeed there is blame to be assigned, because they've just spent a year and half of their lives bleeding and sweating to put this thing out. Maybe a year or so from now, when a) they have the perspective of distance, b) their bosses won't get angry at them for sabotaging sales, and c) their colleagues won't be as hurt by criticism, you'll get a franker perspective.

I didn't see any of the stuff the OP was commenting about.

He never said they didn't make mistakes, he simply defended the choices the design team made. He even admits that a lot of things still need a lot of tuning. He simply states that the team is happy with the direction they're going, and are going to incorporate fan feedback without doing another 180. He even explicitly says at the end of the interview that player feedback is very important to them.



I really feel that people that react to this as "Just more proof the DA team sucks" are those that feel that their concerns override others who enjoyed the changes.

Wow. This. Well said, very well said. Thank you for a very well stated and articulate position, Jaded Scribe.

If I could remember where I put that link the to guy slow-clapping, I'd post it here. Anyone who agrees, feel free to post it. Because this deserves a slow, thoughtful clap.

Because I agree wholeheartedly, here you go:

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Because I agree wholeheartedly, here you go:

^^ Thanks!

And a good point you make as well. Hundreds of people worked on Dragon Age 2. Did it have flaws? Yes. So do all works made by mere humans. Is the lead designer going to betray those working for him by calling attention to them? No. And he shouldn't. It's his job to promote the project, while noting the flaws (and perceived flaws) for the revisions.

 

[Ascarus]

Sorry, I disagree, I really hated the fact I had no control over my characters armor save for rings, amulets and belts.

well not only did Bioware remove the ability to customize the mannequins in your DA2 group, but they also dumbed it down to the point that all you found were rings, amulets and belts, all cleverly called "ring", "amulet" or "belt". no exposition, no clarity, no nothing. just ring, amulet or belt.

and thank god they were so precise in that convention because i know in my previous RPG experience i have mistaken a few belts and amulets for two-handed axes.

and what was the point of all the junk you found? and at least in this bioware was honest and actually called it junk. i swear they did this just because they needed to populate this boring world with something, so junk is what it was. oh look, another pair of torn trousers to choke my bag space. that is so much more awesome than just finding the silver it would be worth.

if DA3 is like this, a once truly promising RPG series will die in the flames of mediocrity.

 

[Ascarus]

for the record (and i truly hope most of you know this) that slow clapping guy is Orson Welles. A man who i'm willing to bet would have loved the depth of character Origins had and derided DA2 for the populist piece of crap it is.

 

[Dolos]

i think a simple solution would be to allow the player to equip armor to the party members but not change the look of the character. when i played through i found armor that would go great on my mage but could never give it to them.

 

[idunnowutiam]

-Mike Laidlaw is incredibly dismissive of any criticism of DAII. The whole thing has a very strong ?If you weren?t happy with DAII you can just F off and die? vibe to it.

He said that the DA2 team had their ears to the forums looking for DA2 criticism so I wouldn't say that.

-At no point does he admit that there was anything, in particular, that could have been done better or that was a mistake.

Well, he did say the combat needed more tweaking. Also, if you like the changes you made you aren't going to see them as mistakes.

-Depth simply isn?t important. Being able to outfit your party just isn?t worth them not looking the way the artist wants them to look. Being able to move the camera so that real tactical combat is possible isn?t as important as having nice scenery.

Well, I can't say anything about the camera because I'm a PS3 player. But I think companions having a set appearance is good, it differs them from the player. I would've done it differently though...

-Mike Laidlaw, in general, sounds more like a bad PR man than a lead designer. There?s shockingly little insight into development here and a whole lot of spinning and apologetics.

Wait, if he's denying DA2 criticism, why would he be apologizing?

Most importantly of all, there?s this:

I think the big key is to not adjust 180 degrees again, because we've done this. I think, as a team, we're quite happy with what we've done with Dragon Age II, and this is establishing a solid foundation that keeps a lot, in fact almost everything I want to keep about Origins, but still has tons of room to grow and, frankly, a more viable future for the franchise.

Unless DAII sales are low enough to make Bioware bring in a new lead designer and commit to a new direction, this is final. Bioware is pulling out of the RPG market, and you can expect an increasingly thin veneer of ?RPG? laid over increasingly generic action games.

Compare DA2 to KotOR, DA2 is definitely a RPG. Also, what I took from the quote was "We like the direction we took with the series" not "We're gonna keep doing this as long as it sells".

 

[Negatempest]

Hmm, someone stated that "seeing" is believing when it comes to improving a franchise. Which is true to some degree. All I gotta say, is that I "played" FF13. Than I saw the trailer to FF13versus and gotta say, If a fantastic game can only be made by following a very crappy one, than I can only imagine the gold of DA3.

 

[Hyper-space]

This thread has the potential to be the straw that breaks the camels back for me, the Escapist has slowly been moving to "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH [insert developer] HAS RUINED EVERYTHIIIING" territory, with more and more dramatic shit like this:

-Mike Laidlaw is incredibly dismissive of any criticism of DAII. The whole thing has a very strong 'If you weren't happy with DAII you can just F off and die' vibe to it.

Jesus fucking christ, will you calm the fuck down, nowhere in the interview does he say ANYTHING that would indicate any ill will towards detractors of DAII. Hell, he even says that some of the criticism is right and that some of it (such as companion armor) is just a matter of opinion. He respects your opinion, but provides the insight into WHY the developer-team made the change.

Seriously, no thread on the escapist has made me more ashamed to be a part of this community, it represents a change in where instead of having rational discussion where people respect each other opinions and treat it as such, everyone has a melodramatic knee-jerk reaction, refusing to even accept the POSSIBILITY of that maybe, just maybe some people do not like X instead of Y. People here put their opinions on such a high-pedestal, that anyone who does not agree with them most be a "12-year old ritalin-popping retard" as someone gracefully put it in an other thread.

 

[rsvp42]

Sorry, I disagree, I really hated the fact I had no control over my characters armor save for rings, amulets and belts.

I get that, but all I can think of is Morrigan and how terrible she looked wearing generic mage's robes. She instantly lost all her visual character and I rejoiced when I finally found a better version of the same outfit. Most of the rogue armor in DA:O was pretty disappointing too.

Not to mention all that equipping kind of makes sense in DA:O because it's a big single journey where you pick up extra members who are sometimes just wearing whatever they met you in. It's reasonable to upgrade their gear. In DA2, your companions aren't all following you around and camping with you. They have their own homes, jobs, etc. So it fits the setting/narrative and improves the visual design to have them dress themselves.

 

[Harb]

Honestly I don't care what he says. Words come and go. The quality of their next product (at least for me) will be the decisive factor. Although I'm very, VERY skeptical about tendencies in their development when looking at the path from DA:O to DA2 (or even ME -> ME2).

 

[Zaik]

I am impressed with how long you guys can keep the hate train churning without running out of steam, getting bored, and going on to do something not pointless.

This might go on as long as the Oblivion hate train, which still hasn't ended.

 

[Neuromaster]

My problems with DA2:

-Very low variety of environments. Between spending 3 acts in Kirkwall and the recycled dungeons, there was just no sense of exploration or discovery at all.

-"Amulet"

-Let me move the damn camera.

-Would have been nice to be able to pick a race/backstory again.

Aside from those elements, I'm not seeing the flaming mediocrity or disaster some of the rest of you are seeing. I'm looking forward to DA3.

 

[wasalp]

-Depth simply isn?t important. Being able to outfit your party just isn?t worth them not looking the way the artist wants them to look.

I can actually give him this. Considering how bad armor (robes in particular) looked in DA:O, and that two or more characters wearing the exact same armor was a bit of a turn-off, it wasn't a bad decision. I just wish they had implemented it a little better, I especially wish they would have taken advantage of the 3-year gaps and changed the character armors (if only just a little) between years, both to indicate that time had passed and to reflect how each character developed over the years.

...umm they did.

edit: oups for one character(Avelyn). I admit that armour should have progressed(a bit) with time.

My biggest issue with the game was the copy pasted dungeons, yuk!

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I am impressed with how long you guys can keep the hate train churning without running out of steam, getting bored, and going on to do something not pointless.

This might go on as long as the Oblivion hate train, which still hasn't ended.

Imagine how bad it'll get when Skyrim releases....I'll be in my bunker.