Dragon Age - Why so much hate for Anora?

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Master of the Skies said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Miyenne said:
I'll take a ruler who doesn't want to rule over someone who does any day. Alistair was scared of being King and screwing up, and that's a good thing. She just wanted power. He cared about the people, she cared about herself.

That and I always played as a human noble and could never resist his clumsy charm so I wanted to marry him, and the only way I could do that was to put him on the throne. And I never hardened him so I knew he'd try his best to be a good King.

And everything else already said.
She only cares about herself? She has already ruled the country for 5 years. The people like her. She was obviously doing something right. Remember that if you get the two to agree to marry, Alistair is the one who breaks it off if he isn't hardened and doesn't like what you do with Loghain. She doesn't. She puts the realm above her own personal desires. Alistair throws a hissy fit and calls the whole thing off if you refuse to kill Loghain.
And she throws her own little fit by refusing to renounce any claims to the throne when Alistair becomes king. Yes, clearly she only has the good of Fereldin in mind by attempting to fracture the nobility.
Okay, you have ruled a kingdom for 5 years. There is a meeting to decide who will be the next ruler. Suddenly, the young upstart bastard who has admitted to not wanting the job and sucking at leading in your presence is getting bullied into taking the job by your father's political rival. Said rival will be this bastard's "counselor" on affairs until Alistair grows into it. How would you react? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like a power grab by Eamon.
With that kind of reasoning we can excuse Alistair's fit over Loghain far easier.

He's a man who betrayed the king, got a nice big part of their army killed, is refusing to get the help of the Grey Wardens who actually know how to deal with the crisis... Throwing a fit over losing personal power your dad got you by betraying your husband is a bit less understandable I think.
Loghain did not "betray" the King. He told Cailin repeatedly that being on the front lines of the the main forces was a stupid idea. He wasn't even happy about having the battle, as he expressed doubts about it at the final war meeting before the battle. He saw that enemy forces were much larger than expected and made a judgement call to retreat because he thought that the battle was lost. Had Cailin taken his advice to not be on the front lines, he would still be alive. And you can't blame Loghain for not taking the Wardens seriously. There hasn't been a Blight in 400 years. Loghain didn't even think there was an Archdemon. And the Wardens do themselves no favors by not telling anyone why they are needed to end a Blight. All they say is "We have to be there, trust us." You'd think they would at least let generals and rulers in on their secret to have actual proof that rulers should fund them.

Now let us talk about Orlais. Loghain fought a war to end a decades long occupation by Orlais. Now, a couple of decades later with Ferelden under heavy assault by darkspawn, Cailin wants to invite a bunch of Orlesian Grey Wardens and chevaliers in to help out. Let us keep in mind that Celene cut through the succession line to become Empress (she was 4th in line for the throne). She is cunning and ambitious. The Grey Wardens are also heavily funded by Orlais. Who knows where their loyalties lie? Grey Wardens were originally banished from Ferelden to begin with because their order there tried to overthrow a king. Who is to say that the Orlesians will leave after the Blight? It is a legitimate concern.
Loghain is not the bad guy he is painted out to be. He definitely did some dirty things after Ostagar, but he was not evil. Alistair was blinded by a need for vengeance.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Miyenne said:
I'll take a ruler who doesn't want to rule over someone who does any day. Alistair was scared of being King and screwing up, and that's a good thing. She just wanted power. He cared about the people, she cared about herself.

That and I always played as a human noble and could never resist his clumsy charm so I wanted to marry him, and the only way I could do that was to put him on the throne. And I never hardened him so I knew he'd try his best to be a good King.

And everything else already said.
She only cares about herself? She has already ruled the country for 5 years. The people like her. She was obviously doing something right. Remember that if you get the two to agree to marry, Alistair is the one who breaks it off if he isn't hardened and doesn't like what you do with Loghain. She doesn't. She puts the realm above her own personal desires. Alistair throws a hissy fit and calls the whole thing off if you refuse to kill Loghain.
And she throws her own little fit by refusing to renounce any claims to the throne when Alistair becomes king. Yes, clearly she only has the good of Fereldin in mind by attempting to fracture the nobility.
Okay, you have ruled a kingdom for 5 years. There is a meeting to decide who will be the next ruler. Suddenly, the young upstart bastard who has admitted to not wanting the job and sucking at leading in your presence is getting bullied into taking the job by your father's political rival. Said rival will be this bastard's "counselor" on affairs until Alistair grows into it. How would you react? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like a power grab by Eamon.
Whether it was a power grab by Eamon or not doesn't matter. The decision was made. She lost. Instead of accepting it and trying for a position as adviser, a move I was expecting because it would've put her in an opposing position to Eamon and, y'know, would've been a smart move, she threw a hissy fit and got locked in the tower.

She threw out all of her years of politicking just to throw a goddam ***** fit over losing. She could have easily made the case that, as she pretty much ran things while Cailan was king, and Alistair was new to ruling a kingdom, she would be a valuable adviser. She's a goddam career politician. She could've spun this to her advantage easily. But nope, ***** fits for everyone!

Edit: I'd also like to point out that Alistair wasn't just throwing a fit. He was heavily objecting to allowing a war criminal and traitor to the crown allowed to go free and join an organization with diplomatic immunity.
It was definitely OOC for her. She was currently splattered in her father's blood, so I can be a little forgiving. But I think her gaffe was less egregious than Alistair's. Alistair also said "fuck you" to the Warden order as well. That seemed out of character for me. Throwing a fit over the throne? Sure. Betraying the order that he talks about believing in all game? And with his mentor being "do whatever it takes" Duncan? Not buying it. There was some lazy writing going on.
 

wintercoat

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Miyenne said:
I'll take a ruler who doesn't want to rule over someone who does any day. Alistair was scared of being King and screwing up, and that's a good thing. She just wanted power. He cared about the people, she cared about herself.

That and I always played as a human noble and could never resist his clumsy charm so I wanted to marry him, and the only way I could do that was to put him on the throne. And I never hardened him so I knew he'd try his best to be a good King.

And everything else already said.
She only cares about herself? She has already ruled the country for 5 years. The people like her. She was obviously doing something right. Remember that if you get the two to agree to marry, Alistair is the one who breaks it off if he isn't hardened and doesn't like what you do with Loghain. She doesn't. She puts the realm above her own personal desires. Alistair throws a hissy fit and calls the whole thing off if you refuse to kill Loghain.
And she throws her own little fit by refusing to renounce any claims to the throne when Alistair becomes king. Yes, clearly she only has the good of Fereldin in mind by attempting to fracture the nobility.
Okay, you have ruled a kingdom for 5 years. There is a meeting to decide who will be the next ruler. Suddenly, the young upstart bastard who has admitted to not wanting the job and sucking at leading in your presence is getting bullied into taking the job by your father's political rival. Said rival will be this bastard's "counselor" on affairs until Alistair grows into it. How would you react? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like a power grab by Eamon.
Whether it was a power grab by Eamon or not doesn't matter. The decision was made. She lost. Instead of accepting it and trying for a position as adviser, a move I was expecting because it would've put her in an opposing position to Eamon and, y'know, would've been a smart move, she threw a hissy fit and got locked in the tower.

She threw out all of her years of politicking just to throw a goddam ***** fit over losing. She could have easily made the case that, as she pretty much ran things while Cailan was king, and Alistair was new to ruling a kingdom, she would be a valuable adviser. She's a goddam career politician. She could've spun this to her advantage easily. But nope, ***** fits for everyone!

Edit: I'd also like to point out that Alistair wasn't just throwing a fit. He was heavily objecting to allowing a war criminal and traitor to the crown allowed to go free and join an organization with diplomatic immunity.
It was definitely OOC for her. She was currently splattered in her father's blood, so I can be a little forgiving. But I think her gaffe was less egregious than Alistair's. Alistair also said "fuck you" to the Warden order as well. That seemed out of character for me. Throwing a fit over the throne? Sure. Betraying the order that he talks about believing in all game? And with his mentor being "do whatever it takes" Duncan? Not buying it. There was some lazy writing going on.
I think we can both agree that both character's outbursts were out of character, even given the circumstances in front of them. A calculating politician like Anora would've never lost her cool, and the Order was everything to Alistair, he would've never abandoned it like he did.

I blame Loghain. He's the root cause of both outbursts! We should behea-wait...
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Miyenne said:
I'll take a ruler who doesn't want to rule over someone who does any day. Alistair was scared of being King and screwing up, and that's a good thing. She just wanted power. He cared about the people, she cared about herself.

That and I always played as a human noble and could never resist his clumsy charm so I wanted to marry him, and the only way I could do that was to put him on the throne. And I never hardened him so I knew he'd try his best to be a good King.

And everything else already said.
She only cares about herself? She has already ruled the country for 5 years. The people like her. She was obviously doing something right. Remember that if you get the two to agree to marry, Alistair is the one who breaks it off if he isn't hardened and doesn't like what you do with Loghain. She doesn't. She puts the realm above her own personal desires. Alistair throws a hissy fit and calls the whole thing off if you refuse to kill Loghain.
And she throws her own little fit by refusing to renounce any claims to the throne when Alistair becomes king. Yes, clearly she only has the good of Fereldin in mind by attempting to fracture the nobility.
Okay, you have ruled a kingdom for 5 years. There is a meeting to decide who will be the next ruler. Suddenly, the young upstart bastard who has admitted to not wanting the job and sucking at leading in your presence is getting bullied into taking the job by your father's political rival. Said rival will be this bastard's "counselor" on affairs until Alistair grows into it. How would you react? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like a power grab by Eamon.
Whether it was a power grab by Eamon or not doesn't matter. The decision was made. She lost. Instead of accepting it and trying for a position as adviser, a move I was expecting because it would've put her in an opposing position to Eamon and, y'know, would've been a smart move, she threw a hissy fit and got locked in the tower.

She threw out all of her years of politicking just to throw a goddam ***** fit over losing. She could have easily made the case that, as she pretty much ran things while Cailan was king, and Alistair was new to ruling a kingdom, she would be a valuable adviser. She's a goddam career politician. She could've spun this to her advantage easily. But nope, ***** fits for everyone!

Edit: I'd also like to point out that Alistair wasn't just throwing a fit. He was heavily objecting to allowing a war criminal and traitor to the crown allowed to go free and join an organization with diplomatic immunity.
It was definitely OOC for her. She was currently splattered in her father's blood, so I can be a little forgiving. But I think her gaffe was less egregious than Alistair's. Alistair also said "fuck you" to the Warden order as well. That seemed out of character for me. Throwing a fit over the throne? Sure. Betraying the order that he talks about believing in all game? And with his mentor being "do whatever it takes" Duncan? Not buying it. There was some lazy writing going on.
I think we can both agree that both character's outbursts were out of character, even given the circumstances in front of them. A calculating politician like Anora would've never lost her cool, and the Order was everything to Alistair, he would've never abandoned it like he did.

I blame Loghain. He's the root cause of both outbursts! We should behea-wait...
I blame Bioware for having a hidden mechanic like "hardening" that depends on one or two lines of dialogue in a side quest that has major consequences at the end of the game.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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the hidden eagle said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
wintercoat said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Miyenne said:
I'll take a ruler who doesn't want to rule over someone who does any day. Alistair was scared of being King and screwing up, and that's a good thing. She just wanted power. He cared about the people, she cared about herself.

That and I always played as a human noble and could never resist his clumsy charm so I wanted to marry him, and the only way I could do that was to put him on the throne. And I never hardened him so I knew he'd try his best to be a good King.

And everything else already said.
She only cares about herself? She has already ruled the country for 5 years. The people like her. She was obviously doing something right. Remember that if you get the two to agree to marry, Alistair is the one who breaks it off if he isn't hardened and doesn't like what you do with Loghain. She doesn't. She puts the realm above her own personal desires. Alistair throws a hissy fit and calls the whole thing off if you refuse to kill Loghain.
And she throws her own little fit by refusing to renounce any claims to the throne when Alistair becomes king. Yes, clearly she only has the good of Fereldin in mind by attempting to fracture the nobility.
Okay, you have ruled a kingdom for 5 years. There is a meeting to decide who will be the next ruler. Suddenly, the young upstart bastard who has admitted to not wanting the job and sucking at leading in your presence is getting bullied into taking the job by your father's political rival. Said rival will be this bastard's "counselor" on affairs until Alistair grows into it. How would you react? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like a power grab by Eamon.
Whether it was a power grab by Eamon or not doesn't matter. The decision was made. She lost. Instead of accepting it and trying for a position as adviser, a move I was expecting because it would've put her in an opposing position to Eamon and, y'know, would've been a smart move, she threw a hissy fit and got locked in the tower.

She threw out all of her years of politicking just to throw a goddam ***** fit over losing. She could have easily made the case that, as she pretty much ran things while Cailan was king, and Alistair was new to ruling a kingdom, she would be a valuable adviser. She's a goddam career politician. She could've spun this to her advantage easily. But nope, ***** fits for everyone!

Edit: I'd also like to point out that Alistair wasn't just throwing a fit. He was heavily objecting to allowing a war criminal and traitor to the crown allowed to go free and join an organization with diplomatic immunity.
It was definitely OOC for her. She was currently splattered in her father's blood, so I can be a little forgiving. But I think her gaffe was less egregious than Alistair's. Alistair also said "fuck you" to the Warden order as well. That seemed out of character for me. Throwing a fit over the throne? Sure. Betraying the order that he talks about believing in all game? And with his mentor being "do whatever it takes" Duncan? Not buying it. There was some lazy writing going on.
I think we can both agree that both character's outbursts were out of character, even given the circumstances in front of them. A calculating politician like Anora would've never lost her cool, and the Order was everything to Alistair, he would've never abandoned it like he did.

I blame Loghain. He's the root cause of both outbursts! We should behea-wait...
I blame Bioware for having a hidden mechanic like "hardening" that depends on one or two lines of dialogue in a side quest that has major consequences at the end of the game.
I actually like the "hardening'mechanic because it results in some pretty fun things(like the threesome if you romanced Leliana or Alistair and hardened them).
I like the mechanic itself, I just hate how hidden it is. I didn't know about it until my 3rd playthrough.
 

Ikasury

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Soviet Heavy said:
Well, this probably had a lot to do with it.

Voice acting so grating it makes the syntax challenged narrator from Soulstorm sound like Shakespeare.
hey, hey, hey... hey! ... how dare the Imperials rule!! that's just shenanigans!! don't make me get the Canoness back here!! *snickers*

though... wow... on topic, wow... just... huh... yea, i NEVER could stand the woman long enough to pull that off to actually SEE her giving the speech... sure if i went evil-M!Cousland and went the whole GoTs 'I be King!! rawr!' route... sure, why not... but i don't like being that kind of dick... or playing humans... they're boring... but... *busts out laughing* XD well, i suppose that does set up a valid argument... *snorts* i love the Narrator for 40k games and their jacked up 'neo'-latin-ism... though Anora's weird middle-english-thing... ugh...

as for the not liking her part, originally i thought she was, or could be, a 'good' person, since she seemed upset with her dick!Father for, well... being HIM! XD so yea, after wasting my time saving her ass she attempts to just turn me and my peeps in... and think that's all dandy? i don't know if she was just being stupid, trying to pull some BS like her dad, or was truly evil underneath... i went Morrigan's route and just did not trust the woman any further...

her and Aelinore (or however you spell her name), the duke's wife in Dragon's Dogma (lol), can go jump off a bridge for all i care... both of them pull this same bullshit... and look alike... hmm... might be something there... but at least in D'sD i can pick her up and toss her off a bridge... so there's some satisfaction there, Anora... yea, i can just threaten her, not even SLAP! her!! what is this!!

Ser Cathrine was at least delusional, so she had that in her defense... Anora... i don't even know, either stupid or power-hungry, either one...
 

Niccolo

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Ren_Li said:
Seriously... If you're ever going to re-play it, try hardening him, if only for the experience.
Given she likes romancing him, I don't think that's a problem [/rimshot]

He's still quite goofy and happy even after being hardened. He's just not quite so idealistic anymore. Which, given the general grimdark nature of Ferelden, is probably a handy survival trait.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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LifeCharacter said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Loghain did not "betray" the King. He told Cailin repeatedly that being on the front lines of the the main forces was a stupid idea. He wasn't even happy about having the battle, as he expressed doubts about it at the final war meeting before the battle.
If Loghain thought being on the front lines was a stupid idea, maybe Loghain, the one who probably came up with the battle strategy, should have devised a plan that didn't involve the bulk of the army standing outside of the fortifications waiting to brawl with a horde of Darkspawn. Big stone walls only have worth if you actually use them.

He saw that enemy forces were much larger than expected and made a judgement call to retreat because he thought that the battle was lost. Had Cailin taken his advice to not be on the front lines, he would still be alive.
If he made a judgment call, why does he only retreat once the beacon is lit, from a distance where it would probably be impossible to actually see the battle or tell how well it was going?

And, taking the human noble origin into account, Loghain definitely didn't plan on Cailin making it out of Ostagar alive. Howe would never attack the Couslands if he hadn't been given assurances from someone in power. Since Cailin is clear that, once Ostagar is over, Howe will be punished, it obviously didn't come from him and, since no one can really overrule the king, Loghain can't really make such promises unless he plans on getting rid of the king.

And you can't blame Loghain for not taking the Wardens seriously. There hasn't been a Blight in 400 years. Loghain didn't even think there was an Archdemon. And the Wardens do themselves no favors by not telling anyone why they are needed to end a Blight. All they say is "We have to be there, trust us." You'd think they would at least let generals and rulers in on their secret to have actual proof that rulers should fund them.
Right, no one had reason to take the Wardens seriously. But what reason did Loghain have for ordering every Warden, or Warden supporter, they found executed once the Darkspawn start tearing up the southern half of his country? Maybe it's not a Blight, but Wardens are still the best means of killing Darkspawn, but he made them enemies of the state and accused them of betraying the king so they wouldn't threaten his newly established power base.

Loghain is not the bad guy he is painted out to be. He definitely did some dirty things after Ostagar, but he was not evil. Alistair was blinded by a need for vengeance.
Loghain made an ambitious move to become the de facto ruler of Ferelden at the cost of his King, a civil war, and Darkspawn terrorizing the south since they weren't stopped at Ostagar. Alistair might have been a a bit blinded over sparing Loghain, but Loghain caused the death of the only family he had ever really had in Duncan and the Wardens. Not to mention, Loghain is guilty of the highest level of treason considering he abandoned the king in battle, claimed power for himself when it should have gone to Anora, and refused to back down when the lords called him out on it.
agree with all this. had they written the story more mysteriously, it MIGHT have given loghain a more morally gray area to wiggle around in, but he full knew what he was doing, seeing as he had howe under his wing during all of it and declared war on all wardens as soon as ostagar was over, blaming them for his cowardly move. (as mentioned, had they used the stone walls for defensive purposes and funneled the darkspawn into corridors, they could've held there own for quite some time if not at least save the king. so fuck him.)
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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LifeCharacter said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Loghain did not "betray" the King. He told Cailin repeatedly that being on the front lines of the the main forces was a stupid idea. He wasn't even happy about having the battle, as he expressed doubts about it at the final war meeting before the battle.
If Loghain thought being on the front lines was a stupid idea, maybe Loghain, the one who probably came up with the battle strategy, should have devised a plan that didn't involve the bulk of the army standing outside of the fortifications waiting to brawl with a horde of Darkspawn. Big stone walls only have worth if you actually use them.

He saw that enemy forces were much larger than expected and made a judgement call to retreat because he thought that the battle was lost. Had Cailin taken his advice to not be on the front lines, he would still be alive.
If he made a judgment call, why does he only retreat once the beacon is lit, from a distance where it would probably be impossible to actually see the battle or tell how well it was going?

And, taking the human noble origin into account, Loghain definitely didn't plan on Cailin making it out of Ostagar alive. Howe would never attack the Couslands if he hadn't been given assurances from someone in power. Since Cailin is clear that, once Ostagar is over, Howe will be punished, it obviously didn't come from him and, since no one can really overrule the king, Loghain can't really make such promises unless he plans on getting rid of the king.

And you can't blame Loghain for not taking the Wardens seriously. There hasn't been a Blight in 400 years. Loghain didn't even think there was an Archdemon. And the Wardens do themselves no favors by not telling anyone why they are needed to end a Blight. All they say is "We have to be there, trust us." You'd think they would at least let generals and rulers in on their secret to have actual proof that rulers should fund them.
Right, no one had reason to take the Wardens seriously. But what reason did Loghain have for ordering every Warden, or Warden supporter, they found executed once the Darkspawn start tearing up the southern half of his country? Maybe it's not a Blight, but Wardens are still the best means of killing Darkspawn, but he made them enemies of the state and accused them of betraying the king so they wouldn't threaten his newly established power base.

Loghain is not the bad guy he is painted out to be. He definitely did some dirty things after Ostagar, but he was not evil. Alistair was blinded by a need for vengeance.
Loghain made an ambitious move to become the de facto ruler of Ferelden at the cost of his King, a civil war, and Darkspawn terrorizing the south since they weren't stopped at Ostagar. Alistair might have been a a bit blinded over sparing Loghain, but Loghain caused the death of the only family he had ever really had in Duncan and the Wardens. Not to mention, Loghain is guilty of the highest level of treason considering he abandoned the king in battle, claimed power for himself when it should have gone to Anora, and refused to back down when the lords called him out on it.
Gaidar on the first point:
I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions.
So the lead writer points out that his decision at Ostagar was probably not pre-mediated.
Source: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/583297&lf=8

Howe was ambitious and Loghain probably knew beforehand and promised to shield Howe from Cailin's wrath. The Wardens were the scapegoats. It looked pretty bad for Loghain after Ostagar so he blamed a group that was there and he has no love for. He didn't even want Maric to even let the Wardens back into Ferelden. Politics!

Loghain definitely has some blind spots. His suspicion of Orlais is borderline paranoid at times (he watched Orlesian soldiers rape and kill his mother and his father was killed resisting them later on so it is pretty personal), but there are some valid concerns there. He is a great general, but an erratic leader. Maric, Loghain, and Rowain made a great team because they balanced out each others' flaws. By himself, Loghain can go off the deep end. Everything he does, he does for Ferelden. Spoilers for the first book:
He manipulates Maric into killing Katriel by withholding information in an attempt to "harden" Maric to rule. Him and Rowain love each other, but he tells her and Maric to marry because it is what is best for the kingdom.
He would do anything if he thought it was for the good of Ferelden. This is what makes him great and terrifying.
 

Gitty101

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It may have something to do with the fact she's a complete and utter *****-face. She'll do whatever it takes to secure herself in power, including betraying you even after you help her, even though there's a blight on her doorstep.
 

lonelyloner

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Loghain did not "betray" the King. He told Cailin repeatedly that being on the front lines of the the main forces was a stupid idea. He wasn't even happy about having the battle, as he expressed doubts about it at the final war meeting before the battle. He saw that enemy forces were much larger than expected and made a judgement call to retreat because he thought that the battle was lost. Had Cailin taken his advice to not be on the front lines, he would still be alive. And you can't blame Loghain for not taking the Wardens seriously. There hasn't been a Blight in 400 years. Loghain didn't even think there was an Archdemon. And the Wardens do themselves no favors by not telling anyone why they are needed to end a Blight. All they say is "We have to be there, trust us." You'd think they would at least let generals and rulers in on their secret to have actual proof that rulers should fund them.

Now let us talk about Orlais. Loghain fought a war to end a decades long occupation by Orlais. Now, a couple of decades later with Ferelden under heavy assault by darkspawn, Cailin wants to invite a bunch of Orlesian Grey Wardens and chevaliers in to help out. Let us keep in mind that Celene cut through the succession line to become Empress (she was 4th in line for the throne). She is cunning and ambitious. The Grey Wardens are also heavily funded by Orlais. Who knows where their loyalties lie? Grey Wardens were originally banished from Ferelden to begin with because their order there tried to overthrow a king. Who is to say that the Orlesians will leave after the Blight? It is a legitimate concern.
Loghain is not the bad guy he is painted out to be. He definitely did some dirty things after Ostagar, but he was not evil. Alistair was blinded by a need for vengeance.
Only one scene is enough for me to know all there is to know:
That scene where King Cailan and Duncan looked at each other, as the soldiers fought and die all around them, knowing that they had been betrayed. That scene was heart wrenching to me.

Look, soldiers can have disagreements during Council. But once course of action had been decided upon, all must stick with it and be loyal to the mission. Soldiers go to battle in faith that their fellow comrades would be there for them, to fight alongside them or to pull them out if they lose.
In fact that's the reason why King Cailan's men were willing to give battle, because they thought they could count on Loghain.

Loghain and friends didn't. They abandoned them all their comrades, without even trying.

They could have at least pulled King Cailan out of there, alive although with his reputation in tatters, and a lesson learned.
They could have at least attempted to rescue the battle.
Nope, they took the easiest most cowardly way out, condemning people who believed in them.

Or better yet, why didn't Loghain just leave camp, saying he disagreed with King? At least he could have been good sport about this and not resort to betrayal.
In fact that's the reason why King Cailan's men were willing to give battle, because they thought they could count on Loghain to be there for them. He could at least quit camp a day or so before battle, instead of waiting until everyone's already trapped.

Traitor.
There's no redeeming Loghain. All other points are unnecessary to me.

To me he's like Sidonis from Garrus's story in Mass Effect 2.
 

Mastigos

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During my recent playthrough, I was fully determined to see Alastair as King. Whether that was alone or with Anora, I left to the flow of the game as I was playing. During my last playthrough, I arranged for them to be married and then allowed Alastair to kill Loghain, knowing that Anora would refuse to marry him and would thus be arrested, leaving Alastair to rule alone. To that end, my character would stay on as Chancellor... (you know the rest).

This time I did the same thing, but (in the aftermath), I realized that I hadn't hardened Alastair, so when my character was asked for a decision and decided to question them both separately, Alastair began to backtrack and reaffirm his desire to not be King. Naturally, having forgot that he wasn't hardened, I was like WTF?!? In this particular case, Anora made the stronger case for herself, so in spite of my initial reservations and motivation, I named her to rule alone... Much to Alastair's satisfaction. Later, after returning to Redcliffe, Eammon alluded to the fact that I had "my" reasons for naming Anora Queen and that now, the Theirin bloodline was finished. I suppose this was intended to make the character feel some sort of remorse about the chain of events, but it was then that my perspective changed radically. At that point, from where I sat (having played the game the way I did... oversight and all), my character reasoned that it was Alastair who abandoned the throne. A throne he never wanted. If the Theirin line was going to end with him, he is the one who should be held accountable, because ultimately, he was the one who should have decided his place. Yes... I know this is all about game mechanics and how characters are written, but for the sake of role playing, if you fail to go down one path or another, a completely different outcome is sometimes the result. In this case, no remorse from my character at all. I didn't betray Alastair, I simply gave him what he wanted. He wanted to be a Grey Warden and nothing more and that's what he got.

Likewise, this playthrough changed my perspective on Anora as well. The hate that she receives, I believe is based more on guilt by association, but through my eyes, she was as much a victim of circumstance as anyone. She wanted to know the truth about her husband's death and she got no answer... She was held captive by her father's ruthless co-conspirator and had no idea of what her ultimate fate would be. Her father usurped her authority (to whatever degree it existed) to further his own goals and as a result, people believed that she was at least tacitly complicit. However, the evidence doesn't really make that clear. It seems that she was as much in the loop as anyone not named Howe or Cauthrien. In this sense, I think the hate directed towards her is at least somewhat misplaced. Yes, she is ambitious and has a clear sense of entitlement, but those feeling are justified when you consider what she says about being the *de facto* leader of the nation. A claim that no one disputes. Yes, she is her father's daughter, but when faced with his treachery, she chose for herself, which (honestly) you really can't fault her for (given the circumstances). Imagine having someone you love betray your trust and putting your life in danger to further their own ambitions... Then ask yourself what you'd do. You might not sign off on their death warrant (which she didn't), but you most certainly wouldn't give them your trust anymore. Also, after returning to Eammon's estate after killing Cauthrien or escaping prison, she states why she says that your character kidnapped her... Which ultimately made sense. Along with this, when she learns of your capture (if you go that route), she has real concern for your character and wants him/her to be rescued. Of course, her reasons may have something to do with her ambition, but it certainly doesn't seem that way. Also to her credit, she acknowledges the fact that her father's actions might very well have dire consequences. Even if you ignore everything else I've written here, the woman was groomed to be the Queen since she was in diapers, so let's be honest... How should we expect her to act?

In the Post Coronation, my character agreed to stay on as her Chancellor... To which she heartily agreed and in the Epilogue, it showed that she was indeed "an astute leader". She did a lot for Ferelden and had a very good relationship with her Chancellor. ;^) Whereas Alastair (in the same position and hardened), learns more about the art of governing, but still left most of the decision making to his Chancellor. At the end of the day, my character didn't really like Alastair that much (through any playthrough), but he respected the fact that the throne had a clear line of ascension and he was prepared to defend that... Also for reasons that were given by Arl Eammon. But when the game plays out as it did in this particular case, my character (being the pragmatist that he is), understood that the nation needed clear leadership and in this case, that was Anora. If the Theirin noble line was ending, the reason laid with it's remaining heir and he had as much reverence for it as Anora did. Even more to the point, when he 'finished' Loghain, what did he say? "Forget Cailan, this is for Duncan." --Nuff said.

Considering all the above, one could argue that Alastair betrayed my character's faith in him (game mechanics notwithstanding). For that, I left him to guard the gate during the final assault, that way, if my character fell, (theoretically) he could lead the second wave and perhaps restore some honor to his name. Unfortunately for him, he didn't get the chance, but he did his duty as a Grey Warden and in the same breath, Ferelden got a true leader.
 

Asita

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I dunno, I always thought she complemented a (Hardened) Alistair rather well, myself. Then again, I guess I did avoid seeing her worst aspects by surrendering to the guard when escaping from the castle and planning to unite Alistair and Anora from the get-go.

alphamalet said:
With that kind of reasoning we can excuse Alistair's fit over Loghain far easier.

He's a man who betrayed the king, got a nice big part of their army killed, is refusing to get the help of the Grey Wardens who actually know how to deal with the crisis... Throwing a fit over losing personal power your dad got you by betraying your husband is a bit less understandable I think.
You forgot indirectly killing his mentor and (arguably) father figure by willingly withholding reinforcements, throwing the Grey Wardens under the bus by framing them collectively as the perpetrators of his crime, ignoring the Blight outright (due to paranoia about a neighboring nation that wasn't even acting aggressively), sending assassins to kill you directly (thereby nearly dooming Fereldin to the Blight), putting the queen under house arrest while he consolidated power as regent, arranging to have Alistair's adopted father killed through poison, allowing the elves to be sold into slavery...
 

5ilver

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Miyenne said:
I'll take a ruler who doesn't want to rule over someone who does any day. Alistair was scared of being King and screwing up, and that's a good thing. She just wanted power. He cared about the people, she cared about herself.

That and I always played as a human noble and could never resist his clumsy charm so I wanted to marry him, and the only way I could do that was to put him on the throne. And I never hardened him so I knew he'd try his best to be a good King.

And everything else already said.
She only cares about herself? She has already ruled the country for 5 years. The people like her. She was obviously doing something right. Remember that if you get the two to agree to marry, Alistair is the one who breaks it off if he isn't hardened and doesn't like what you do with Loghain. She doesn't. She puts the realm above her own personal desires. Alistair throws a hissy fit and calls the whole thing off if you refuse to kill Loghain.
She doesn't put her realm above her desires, the realm *is* her only desire. As far as marriage, she doesn't give a rats ass about that, that's why she agrees to it.
 

spartandude

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Asita said:
I dunno, I always thought she complemented a (Hardened) Alistair rather well, myself. Then again, I guess I did avoid seeing her worst aspects by surrendering to the guard when escaping from the castle and planning to unite Alistair and Anora from the get-go.

alphamalet said:
With that kind of reasoning we can excuse Alistair's fit over Loghain far easier.

He's a man who betrayed the king, got a nice big part of their army killed, is refusing to get the help of the Grey Wardens who actually know how to deal with the crisis... Throwing a fit over losing personal power your dad got you by betraying your husband is a bit less understandable I think.
You forgot indirectly killing his mentor and (arguably) father figure by willingly withholding reinforcements, throwing the Grey Wardens under the bus by framing them collectively as the perpetrators of his crime, ignoring the Blight outright (due to paranoia about a neighboring nation that wasn't even acting aggressively), sending assassins to kill you directly (thereby nearly dooming Fereldin to the Blight), putting the queen under house arrest while he consolidated power as regent, arranging to have Alistair's adopted father killed through poison, allowing the elves to be sold into slavery...
and on top of all that he has a really bad hair style going on
 

RickyChinese

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Alistair was a chump. Anora was an experienced, pragmatic leader who never tried to do that bargain bin whedon refugee thing Alistair was basically stuffed with. I was skipping through mad dialog to decap that fool.