Out of respect for other forum users, I will put this argument in spoilers, because it is very long.
And I reiterate that "bad combat" is nothing more than an opinion.
If I wasn't clear, you should have said so in the first place. If I misunderstood you, you should have said so the first time. I shouldn't be finding this out from you now. Next time point these things out immediately and politely to clear up any miscommunication. This is a lot more effective than using it against someone.
Also, as a side note: when having a discussion, try not to put anger in your words. It promotes hostility instead of persuasion and discussion. Because of your hostility we have both been brick walls to the point of not being able to agree without putting down the other person. In fact, I'm tired of it. In your next response, if you do not write to me with respect, I won't respond or even finish reading it. Yeah, you'll have the last word, but no one will care.
I'm sorry. I was being respectful to other people on the forum, and wanted them to skip over it. They shouldn't have to scroll through a lengthy argument that they are not part of, especially when we are doing tit for tat. Let's be realistic here: nobody is going to read this except for us.Starke said:It's nice to know you think so highly of your own work.Bocaj2000 said:The following includes a long debate. If you don't care, feel free to skip over it.
EDIT: Don't spoiler out what you're doing unless it's an actual spoiler. It says "hey, whatever I'm doing isn't important enough to respond to, read, or regard", if you want to use spoiler tags to trim down the quote trees, that's fine, but blocking off your own work only makes people less likely to read what you're trying to say.
I never said "MMOs"; I said RPGs. Despite how interesting your MMO point was, it has nothing to do with my point. Unfortunately, your entire argument is inane and off topic.Starke said:Of course it's been around since the beginning for MMOs. MMOs were, at one time, designed with the intention of being played on a 56k modem, and the internet infrastructure wasn't advanced enough to handle more intricate combat systems.Bocaj2000 said:Thank you for expanding two for your opinions. Now I can continue to say how I still don't agree. SWTOR has had eight updates within the past year, all of which adding the content you speak of such as flash points and operations. Is that not enough?Starke said:More frequent content updates. You know, new things to do, new places to go, new people to kill, and turn upside down for loot. New content. Stuff most MMOs that actually want to keep subscribers turn out on a fairly regular basis.Bocaj2000 said:I owe you 72 bad MMOs? I'll just give you this: http://mmohuts.com/ Browse at your own pace. Trust me when I say that SWTOR is a top tier MMO, I have tried a LOT of them, including the ones you listed. And even though I agree with some of your choices, your reasons are inane and subjective. I hate to say, but I'm pretty much going to dismiss this section of your argument until you can give more legitimate reasons than "better combat" and frequent content.
As to better combat, combat that goes beyond standing in one place staring at someone waiting for cooldowns to finish. Hell, a quarter of the game's classes rely on literally NEVER moving in combat at all as a mechanic.
As for combat: some people like that. I know it's hard to wrap your head around, but ability based combat has been around since the beginning of RPGs, and the same goes with cooldowns. You might prefer other styles of combat, but preference doesn't mean "bad". Final Fantasy games involve your characters just standing there waiting for a cooldown just to use a single ability, but they are well received (well, most of them).
Really, the earliest MMOs were just IRC chatrooms, it was only later that they managed to advance to the point of including a graphical world, and with it the cooldown wait. Thing is, it was 2011, and TOR implemented a design decision from 1999. A decision that was predicated on the internet infrastructure of the late 90s. Anyone who can look at DCUO's combat, and then look at TOR's and say, "yep, TOR's got good combat" is either delusional, or in denial.
And I reiterate that "bad combat" is nothing more than an opinion.
Thank you for discrediting my writing abilities as an excuse for your poor communication. I'll keep that in mind. I'll also keep in mind that "some smartass" doesn't know what "examples" are. Speaking of examples, in a conversation it is allowed to use one that wasn't discussed previously to help your point. You aren't at the whim of the person asking the questions when it comes to examples. In fact, you can say whatever you want as long as you tie it in to the original question or point. How ever, when you don't tie these statements into the original point, you can get misunderstood and it can look like you're going off topic.Starke said:No, I didn't, let's go back and look at what you wrote again, since this seems to be a consistent problem.Bocaj2000 said:I'm not talking about lies. I'm talking about quality. You dodged the question again.Starke said:I didn't. And you may not care what Bioware said, but a lot of people did. If you can't understand how lying to people might produce a certain level of dissatisfaction, then I'm pretty sure I can't help you.Bocaj2000 said:Second, the ending. I don't care what Bioware said. Answer my questions and don't change the subject this time.
Which question did you answer? Why ME3 and not the others? To be honest, I didn't think that lying developers had anything to do with the quality of a game. That's why I called it a derail. And it's not like I don't see how lying can bother people; it's that I don't care. It's a superficial argument that has nothing to do with the final product.Starke said:So... hmm... no, I didn't dodge the question. Though to be fair, there are twelve questions there, some of them are almost worth answering, others are not. Unless you literally want me to tell you where I was. In which case the fault lies with your own writing skills, and not my extrapolating a question off that. The question you apparently asked was "why won't you just leave ME3 alone? Here look at this other shit, be mean to that instead!" Why ME3? Because the developers pissed people off. Can't understand that? Too fucking bad.Bocaj2000 said:-ME3 ending sucks? Where were you during Deus Ex: Human Revolution's complaints? Or Uncharted 3? LA Noir? KotOR 2? All of the others according to our subjective opinions? Where were their cupcakes? Should we revolt every time an ending isn't good enough? Does a denouement you don't want spoil the entire experience? What if I didn't like the ending to Legend of Grimrock? Does that discredit my entire experience? Should I spend countless hours bitching about it to strangers and hold a grudge against the people that made it?
At this point, just based on prior evidence, I'd be inclined to say, no, you're not interpreting anything correctly. Including two of those games' reputations. It really is like the simile I made.Bocaj2000 said:Words cannot even begin to describe how inaccurate and fallacious this statement is. How do you compare a bad ending to either of these? Mass Effect, Deus Ex, and Uncharted are all known for good writing. You honestly expected shitty endings from DE:HR and Uncharted 3, but not Mass Effect 3? Am I interpreting this unexplained quote correctly?Starke said:As to Deus Ex and Uncharted? That's like complaining that Doom 3 involves using a gun or that Tomb Raider expects you to play as a girl.
But, to be fair, no, I expected a shitty ending from ME3, I expected a shitty ending for ME3 back when I played the tutorial level of ME2, and in that regard I wasn't disappointed. But, a lot of people didn't figure it out for another two years, and they've got my sympathy, up to a point.
And you complain about my overwhelming number of questions, so I'll make things simple for you: Why this game's ending and not others? And don't say "lying" again, because I don't care.
So let me get this straight: You understood what I was trying to say this whole time, you agreed with me, and you were/are still hostile. Are you really that mad at me? This is comical; even when we agree you feel the need to insult and challenge me. I pity you.Starke said:Oh, I do understand that.Bocaj2000 said:You impress me. You can take a quote out of context. Unfortunately, this just shows that you have bad comprehension skills, so let me describe my paragraph for you:Okay... no, wait, then who wrote this?Bocaj2000 said:Third, sequels. What's your point? You just ranted on how you didn't like the Reaper larva. What does that have to do with what I said? You once again ignored what I said and ranted about something for no reason.
Oh, right, that would be you. So, no, I was talking about what you said. Exactly what you said. Again, I'm sorry, but if you don't know what you wrote, maybe you should reread it, or take notes, or something.Bocaj2000 said:I don't like Mass Effect II as much as its predecessor, but that doesn't make it a bad game.
And here's the part that might confuse you a bit, I don't actually hate, or even dislike DA2.
The paragraph was about how many people will think that a game "sucks" because it isn't as good or doesn't have the same charm as the original. Many people who played Dragon Age II hated it because it didn't stand up to the original. The issue is that instead of voicing that as if it were preference, they voiced it as if it was the same quality as Big Rigs. Gamers tend to judge quality on binary without giving grey area; "If it's the best, then it sucks." They come off as childish and whiny.
I decided to support my claim with an example of my preference of ME1 over ME2. Both games are good. I can go on forever about why they are both good. But, I can also go on about why I like 1 better than 2. I am not here to talk about that though. That's another conversation for another day. It was no more than an example to support the main point.
Now that misunderstanding is out of the way, you can finally... never mind. You don't hate Dragon Age II. I think you actually agree with me on this point. If only you could understand what I was trying to say in the first place so we could avoid this cluster-fuck.
Unrelated, there's an element in writing you need to deal with, even just arguments, the distinction between what you intend, and what you put on the page. I've been responding to what you put on the page, and while your writing needs work, you've had a pretty hard time going back and realizing what exists in the text vs. what you've got in your head.
In particular your second point really suffers from this. You don't know what you asked. I mean, you think you know what you asked, and you have a question in your mind, but when someone answers that, you say "Nooo, that's not what I meant, go back, do better! "
No, on that front, mostly, the problem's been you haven't been asking the questions you wanted to ask. I already went over this, but you have a question in your head. And if you'd get that onto the page, I'd respond, but until that happens we're both left with questions like, "Where were you when the uproar happened over the ending of Kotor 2?" Well, Iowa. But that's not the question you wanted to ask. It's not the answer you're looking for, and until you can actually articulate the question you want to ask, you're not going to get questions that have much of anything to do with what's going on in your head.Bocaj2000 said:I knew that someone was going to respond eventually. And I kinda lied. I was expecting fallacious arguments and question dodging. I thank you for this post. It offered much more clarity on what you were thinking so that I can get one step closer to proper answers. So far, with the exception of the SWTOR comments, you have been answering your own questions and ignoring mine. You're a lot like a politician in that sense. However, unlike politicians, you haven't been able to back your claims up.Starke said:Did you now? So, you knew I was going to post, how interesting. Well, as we established I did answer your questions, and, while I wasn't terribly polite, you still haven't answered your own question there: Why are you typing? Especially if you actually think no one cares. If it's not looking for someone who has an opinion they can back with evidence, I really can't tell you.Bocaj2000 said:Lastly, your clever comment at the end... all you did was prove my point. You don't care what I have to say; you just want to complain. I wasn't expecting to agree with you; I wasn't even expecting you to be polite. But I expected that you would at least answer my questions.
Then take some time, and learn how to write clearly and concisely. If you're bringing up an example, don't just bring it up because it's out there, and you don't know why. Seriously, the list of game endings is an example. Don't bring up ME2 in your DA2 commentary, why? Because some smartass will slap you down for it.Bocaj2000 said:You do pose an interesting question, though. Why am I doing this? Why am I arguing with someone over the internet despite knowing that I won't change anyone's minds or get them to acknowledge my opinion? I enjoy a exchanging information and getting to know the other side's opinion. I enjoy getting through the fallacies and getting straight to the real answer. I see the exchanging of ideas, whether I agree or not, as a potential growing experience for both parties. So there you go: the reasons I debate is to learn and grow, and because I enjoy deconstructing bad arguments in order to get to the truth.
If I wasn't clear, you should have said so in the first place. If I misunderstood you, you should have said so the first time. I shouldn't be finding this out from you now. Next time point these things out immediately and politely to clear up any miscommunication. This is a lot more effective than using it against someone.
Also, as a side note: when having a discussion, try not to put anger in your words. It promotes hostility instead of persuasion and discussion. Because of your hostility we have both been brick walls to the point of not being able to agree without putting down the other person. In fact, I'm tired of it. In your next response, if you do not write to me with respect, I won't respond or even finish reading it. Yeah, you'll have the last word, but no one will care.