Dubbed verse Subbed
- Thread starter Dizeazedkiller
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I don't care if it's in Japanese or German or, I don't know, Fulani; whatever. I still prefer subtitles, because I can read and watch the picture at the same time, and original is always the original.
Dubbed animation can be alright, but dubbed live action is just something that shouldn't be done.
Besides, there's a lot of people whose first language isn't English (like me), so if they're going to watch something in a foreign language, it might as well be the original.
Dubbed animation can be alright, but dubbed live action is just something that shouldn't be done.
Besides, there's a lot of people whose first language isn't English (like me), so if they're going to watch something in a foreign language, it might as well be the original.
I dunno. I'm an anime snob, but the dub/sub debate is one that I deal with on a case by case basis. It usually depends on the quality of the dub voice acting and of the translation they used.Dizeazedkiller said:
Because American dubs are often made in a "vacuum" - that is, the actors don't interact with one another - the interaction between characters tends to be worse than it is in subs (in Japan, all the voice actors for a scene stand in the sound studio together, which aids in acting). Also, dubs tend to lose subtleties. Examples will follow in a moment.
Dubs, on the other hand, tend to do better when the American release makes some artistic decisions - that is, dubs work better when they change the script more. As you say, Japanese jokes often don't translate well. Some dubs choose to change the jokes entirely and use jokes that a Western audience (typically American) can relate to. Those dubs often work better than their subbed counterparts because they maintain the comedy.
Now, for those examples.
I cannot watch the dub of "Revolutionary Girl Utena" because, while most of the cast is actually quite good, a few really bad voice actors (Anthy and Juri) basically destroy the show. Two of the most complex, subtle, and delicate characters are given to a pair of voice actresses who could not handle the parts. Thus, you get flat, awful performances from two key characters - and not even the stellar performances from Utena and Touga's VAs could save it.
Another example from Utena are subtleties. This is more an error of script translation. In the second season of Utena, there is a scene where Shiori asks Juri who's picture she is hiding in her locket. Juri walks away without answering and, pausing at the top of the stairs, says "It's you." Utena is standing at the bottom of the stairs.
Now, did that "it's you" mean "Shiori, you are the person in my locket" or did it mean "oh crap, it's Utena, and I hate her so much" ? In the Japanese sub, you can't tell - and that's exactly the sort of subtlety that Juri employs throughout the series.
In the dub, Juri says "Utena," at the top of the stairs. This only allows for the second possibility, and makes the scene far less interesting.
As far as jokes go, I can't think of a better example than Slayers. Watching the sub of Slayers is far less funny because half the jokes are flat or don't come off in a fashion that is funny to a Western viewer. On the other hand, the dub does a great job capturing the spirit of the jokes while changing their content.
Case in point - at one point there is a demon that looks like a giant chicken in a waistcoat and carrying a pocket watch. In the sub, he speaks with a strange verbal affect - which is apparently the noise that chickens make in Japan. In the dub, he talks like Colonel Sanders, founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken. The first is amusing only if your are familiar with the Japanese noise for "cluck" and with the Japanese habit of adding affects to the ends of their sentences. The second is funny if you've ever seen a KFC commercial.
So yeah, it is really case by case. I used to say that drama was better subbed and comedy better dubbed, but I've since encountered shows that break that pattern. I've even encountered shows that are good both dubbed and subbed. Evangelion is a good example of that one - I love the dub acting and I enjoy the sub as well. Both are great - so I can listen to either one and not feel like I'm missing out on anything.
All else being equal, I would say dubs are preferrable. Not always a luxury, but the dubbing team definitely should be taking more into account than just translating the script; some concepts and referrences just don't cross cultures very well, so an appropriate adaption takes these into account. They can't be too liberal either, as that could lead to the dub being too unfaithful to the source material.
Subbing more or less doesn't touch the source material, meaning that the quality of the original is preserved... though many are quick to forget that the source material might not exactly be that great to begin with. Subs can be just as poorly translated as dubs, if not even worse; but the foreign audience never knows because they don't understand the language, meaning they may not realize just how bad the original language version really is. On the bright side, bad subs are significantly easier and cheaper to correct than bad dubs. Hammy works might be more suitable for subs, as it could avert the "that sounded much better in my head" situation.
But this brings us to the worst case senario... a bad dub. At least with a bad sub, the source material (be it good or bad) is still left intact; along with the significantly easier/cheaper method of correcting it. This more or less comes down to either butchering of the source material or being too faithful to the source material when they shouldn't have been (aka: "blind-idiot translation") because it wasn't that good to begin with.
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For the most part, it comes down to how easily the audience will notice the mistakes. With dubs, any mistakes are painfully obvious; the quality of the dub has to be extremely well done, and assistance from the team which made in the first place isn't a bad idea. If done right however, you open up the work to much larger audience.
Subbing is safer, pure and simple; easier to get right, the audience might never notice when you're wrong, and it's a lot cheaper as well. You also have an army of rabid fanboys who will only subs are the only way to do things, which is fine if you're not trying to go beyond niche appeal.
So in summation:
A good dub is the ideal situation, but the most difficult to pull off.
A good sub is the most practical situation, but may be lacking mass appeal.
A bad sub is workable, because you can get away with it.
A bad dub will comdemn a work to obscurity at best, provided it avoids the ridicule.
Subbing more or less doesn't touch the source material, meaning that the quality of the original is preserved... though many are quick to forget that the source material might not exactly be that great to begin with. Subs can be just as poorly translated as dubs, if not even worse; but the foreign audience never knows because they don't understand the language, meaning they may not realize just how bad the original language version really is. On the bright side, bad subs are significantly easier and cheaper to correct than bad dubs. Hammy works might be more suitable for subs, as it could avert the "that sounded much better in my head" situation.
But this brings us to the worst case senario... a bad dub. At least with a bad sub, the source material (be it good or bad) is still left intact; along with the significantly easier/cheaper method of correcting it. This more or less comes down to either butchering of the source material or being too faithful to the source material when they shouldn't have been (aka: "blind-idiot translation") because it wasn't that good to begin with.
---
For the most part, it comes down to how easily the audience will notice the mistakes. With dubs, any mistakes are painfully obvious; the quality of the dub has to be extremely well done, and assistance from the team which made in the first place isn't a bad idea. If done right however, you open up the work to much larger audience.
Subbing is safer, pure and simple; easier to get right, the audience might never notice when you're wrong, and it's a lot cheaper as well. You also have an army of rabid fanboys who will only subs are the only way to do things, which is fine if you're not trying to go beyond niche appeal.
So in summation:
A good dub is the ideal situation, but the most difficult to pull off.
A good sub is the most practical situation, but may be lacking mass appeal.
A bad sub is workable, because you can get away with it.
A bad dub will comdemn a work to obscurity at best, provided it avoids the ridicule.
Subs.
In Norway, dubs are seen as a childrens' thing. When you learn to read at an acceptable speed, you watch shows with subtitles, and I've grown up with this mindset.
That, and I get the Japanese voice acting which is most of the time far better than the English. And I don't have to wait for shows to be dubbed to watch them.
And I'm a bit of a purist. I always want whatever media I consume to be as close to how it was originally intended as possible.
It really annoys me when people try to not only dub, but also localize shows. Ugh.
In Norway, dubs are seen as a childrens' thing. When you learn to read at an acceptable speed, you watch shows with subtitles, and I've grown up with this mindset.
That, and I get the Japanese voice acting which is most of the time far better than the English. And I don't have to wait for shows to be dubbed to watch them.
And I'm a bit of a purist. I always want whatever media I consume to be as close to how it was originally intended as possible.
It really annoys me when people try to not only dub, but also localize shows. Ugh.
I prefer dubbed, but if the va work is better in Japanese, then why the hell not? Unfortunately, I have a big bugbear with japanese va's: the helium induced ear scratching female voices. I hear one of those, and I turn the show off and look for a dub.
I'm not too terribly picky, unless the dub job is REALLY bad. Like if the lip-syncs are off, the emotion is wrong, etc. If it's done well, I'll watch the dub. One of my favorite dubs at the moment is Hetalia. The fact that Funimation was able to find good actors that can pull off the accents is a feat in and of itself, and having the individual accents is a nice little treat. It does annoy me that people are willing to disregard good dub work simply because it's dubbed in English.
Dubbed - I don't want to spend 70% of a film staring at the lower 10% of the screen, Films are not made nor designed to be viewed through your peripheral vision.
Subbed before Dubbed except when it comes to Cowboy Bebop and Trigun. The fact of the matter(fact in my mind) is that English voice actor's are usually terrible in dubs.
Usually so long as I haven't already seen the Japanese version I don't mind the English voices unless they just aren't very good actors but when you have heard the Japanese voice of a character and its a soft gentle voice of a boy you're pretty disturbed when the english version gives him a deep powerful man voice.
This man speaks my mind. I almost always prefer subs. ot only in anime - if I watch something German, I'd prefer to listen to German and read English (because there are usually English subtitles easy to find), if I watch something French, I'd want to hear them in French, if I watch something in Italian, I'd prefer to hear them in Italian. Even though I personally find Italian slightly annoying, I'd still prefer it to dubbing, unless I am sure that the dubs are really well done. So, in this line of thoughts, if I watch something Japanese, I'd want to hear Japanese.Llil said:
I have nothing agains dubs, personally, though. Well, with the exception of some really really awful voice acting but I don't hold that against dubbing in general.
Dubbed anime for me. If you never watch subbed you'll never have to know what the original was like.
And really, it's a show, you watch and listen. I don't want to have to fucking read. I'm not anti reading but it takes away from the whole point of it. I want to watch whats going on and not miss subtle stuff.
And really, it's a show, you watch and listen. I don't want to have to fucking read. I'm not anti reading but it takes away from the whole point of it. I want to watch whats going on and not miss subtle stuff.
Well some dubbed is good(Hellsing OVA)but those are rare and hard to come by. Unfortunately, dubs are often done bad and throw out original names or parts of the work due to localisation(bad localisation not changing of jokes to suit audience that is fine) and censorship(Rave Master, Yu-Gi-Oh). In fact, just take pretty much everything by 4kids push it somewhere else, burn that place with fire, nuke it, use Exterminatus then collapse it into a black hole.
Also after having watched the Mummy Returns dubbed in French it made me realise how much dubs can just get voice and emotions of the situation so wrong. Dubbing Live action is the greatest sin one can commit ever in my eyes.
That and to go back the Yu-Gi-Oh movie Bonds Beyond Time was so awful in dubbed I just started laughing at it. I am more than willing to watch a good dub. Although, I can understand the arguments against some Japanese female/male voice acting when the girls sound like they are on helium when they are meant to be mature and the boys who are immature sound like a 40 year old man. I am exaggerating but you know what I'm referring to.
Also after having watched the Mummy Returns dubbed in French it made me realise how much dubs can just get voice and emotions of the situation so wrong. Dubbing Live action is the greatest sin one can commit ever in my eyes.
That and to go back the Yu-Gi-Oh movie Bonds Beyond Time was so awful in dubbed I just started laughing at it. I am more than willing to watch a good dub. Although, I can understand the arguments against some Japanese female/male voice acting when the girls sound like they are on helium when they are meant to be mature and the boys who are immature sound like a 40 year old man. I am exaggerating but you know what I'm referring to.
I used to be a hardcore sub watcher but now I prefer dubs, even the bad ones. Although these days it's usually a pretty safe bet that the dub will be at least as good as the Japanese version.
I prefer subs under most circumstances for a variety of reasons:
A lot of things have never been officially imported, so you need to rely on fan translations; a lot of fans know both languages well so they get the translation right, but very few will even attempt dubbing and those who do typically aren't voice actors.
A lot of the things that have been imported were translated by some huge company that doesn't give a damn and doesn't understand anime anyway, so their translations tend to be crap even if they don't bowlderize the whole thing or cut it to shreds, so I end up going back to the fan translations; see above.
A lot of the voice actors for dubbing just aren't very good at it, leading to annoyance, distraction, etc.
If I'm just listening without anything else to follow on, I occasionally hear the wrong words, miss part of a line, whatever, especially if there are other people talking nearby or other distractions (or the voice actor is bad at their job), so even in english shows I tend to keep the subtitles on if I have the option. But most of the time a sub and a dub will use slightly different translations, and the disconnect between what I see and what I hear screws things up further.
A lot of jokes, dramatic lines, etc. sound great in the japanese, still work in printed words, but just fall flat when you say them out loud in english. So even a good dub, unless they went so far as to come up with something similarly dramatic/funny in english with a similar meaning (which typically goes horribly wrong), will just sound dumb at times.
That said, there are some great dubs out there, and I don't really mind watching the dub if it's decent, but as a general rule I'll look for a sub first.
A lot of things have never been officially imported, so you need to rely on fan translations; a lot of fans know both languages well so they get the translation right, but very few will even attempt dubbing and those who do typically aren't voice actors.
A lot of the things that have been imported were translated by some huge company that doesn't give a damn and doesn't understand anime anyway, so their translations tend to be crap even if they don't bowlderize the whole thing or cut it to shreds, so I end up going back to the fan translations; see above.
A lot of the voice actors for dubbing just aren't very good at it, leading to annoyance, distraction, etc.
If I'm just listening without anything else to follow on, I occasionally hear the wrong words, miss part of a line, whatever, especially if there are other people talking nearby or other distractions (or the voice actor is bad at their job), so even in english shows I tend to keep the subtitles on if I have the option. But most of the time a sub and a dub will use slightly different translations, and the disconnect between what I see and what I hear screws things up further.
A lot of jokes, dramatic lines, etc. sound great in the japanese, still work in printed words, but just fall flat when you say them out loud in english. So even a good dub, unless they went so far as to come up with something similarly dramatic/funny in english with a similar meaning (which typically goes horribly wrong), will just sound dumb at times.
That said, there are some great dubs out there, and I don't really mind watching the dub if it's decent, but as a general rule I'll look for a sub first.
Pretty much this, except for #4. I've never paid much attention to Japanese voice actors, but it did seem to me that they all sound the same/similar. My biggest problem with subs is that the f*ing subtitles always go by to damn fast so I always end up missing half the dialogue anyway. Either that or I miss most of the action because my eyes are glued to the bottom of the screen while I try to read the subtitles.TheKasp said:
I don't understand why anyone would watch subtitled anything, other than someone deaf... or someone so desperate to watch something they can't be bothered to wait for a proper release in their language.
Most of all, I don't understand why anyone would PAY for such a thing, or for the usual terribly acted dubbed stuff. When you release something in a country for wide consumption, it is simply the morally right thing to do to ensure it is properly translated by skilled voice actors.
Unfortunately, in my experience, anime especially suffers from the fact that the people producing it couldn't care less about customers other than their primary customer base. Their disrespect is clearly shown by the fact they do not ensure proper and accurate translations when selling things.
Most of all, I don't understand why anyone would PAY for such a thing, or for the usual terribly acted dubbed stuff. When you release something in a country for wide consumption, it is simply the morally right thing to do to ensure it is properly translated by skilled voice actors.
Unfortunately, in my experience, anime especially suffers from the fact that the people producing it couldn't care less about customers other than their primary customer base. Their disrespect is clearly shown by the fact they do not ensure proper and accurate translations when selling things.