Duke Nukem and sexism
- Thread starter AllLagNoFrag
- Start date
I couldn't exactly agree here...AllLagNoFrag said:
True enough, when one is affected by a disturbing element that might be harmful for them, they ought to have the right to complain. Like with smoking. But also with sexism.
Now, this might seem far-fetched, but ideologies will grow and fester if you give them the space and energy to do so. This is a case with sexism, even from a 'harmless' game. And just by purchasing at it are you, perhaps, condoning the idea.
They (referring to the ones complaining) might not be the targeted demographic, and surely have never and will never play the game, but they will complain for the ideology behind it, and how it will affect them.
TL;DR, if you are allowed to complain about smoke, you are allowed to complain about sexism.
While I can't blame you for not going really in-depth on this, your argument saying "Duke is indeed sexist" has one very fatal flaw. No matter what Fox News would have you believe, Duke does NOT slap the babe in Capture the Babe. At least not in the way the word slap would imply. Rather, Duke just gives her a bit of a spank to calm her down. While Duke Nukem isn't exactly a role model, words like "Sexist" or "Misogynistic" don't really apply to him. If Duke thought that women were inferior to him or just plain hated women, he wouldn't go towards such lengths to save them.AllLagNoFrag said:
You know why Duke was in this situation in the first place? You know why he doesn't just cut some corners to save the babes and keep his own hide safe? Because the aliens stole the women and are essentially raping them for shits and giggles.
http://cdn.gearboxsoftware.com/dukenukemforever.com/assets/audio/DUKE_Map03_Line_04.mp3
Would a guy who truly discriminates against women show such genuine rage when they're kidnapped? That shit will just not fly.
Oh, I guess it will fly.
It's called favouritism.The_root_of_all_evil said:
ON TOPIC: Sexual abuse does happen in real life and while this may be in bad taste, it's not sayign that sexual abuse is a good thing and that women deserve it. It simply shows it. How is that sexism?
Ok, then I'll address that instead. They were essentially being accused of perpetuating rape culture and thereby encouraging rape. If someone leveled that charge at me for such a harmless joke, I'd be shocked and offended. Evidently they were as well. They responded a bit flippantly, I suppose, but anyone who would so casually toss about such an accusation deserves a bit of ridicule. As for any reasonable-minded readers who were offended by the second comic, that's a shame (truly), but they weren't the intended audience.psyks said:
Why don't you use his picture, then? Surely that would be more appealing to you as it'd be more in line with your more mature taste in gaming protagonists?Hardcore_gamer said:
I agree that these activists groups like NOW and GLAD spend too much time whining and not enough time affecting real change. There is, however, a difference between complaining and calling someone out. If Duke is indeed sexist, then the feminist organizations aren't doing their jobs if they aren't calling the developers out. There's a reason things like this don't happen on TV (ok, fine, outside of satire). On Family Guy, Peter may occasionally slap Lois just for the shock factor but they don't make a game of it. It's clear that it's a joke and not a virginal adolescent fantasy, which the Duke ass-smacking game clearly is.AllLagNoFrag said:
But it's not like Duke does nearly the damage that Twilight and Cosmo do. Why don't we call out the entertainment that targets girls and teaches them to be madonna-whores (or just whores)?
i'm not going to start brow-beating, but let's assume there was a game out there where you played a female and part of the game was feminizing men, maybe only a capture the flag thing (bring the enemy 'flag' or male, back to your base and when 'captured' he is dresed up like a girl)awesomeClaw said:
now tell me THAT woulnd't get men pissed off? It would, big time. Do you think that the 'it's a parody' arguement would hold water? Honestly?
I kinda think that it's a bit of a double-standard tbh.
You get the ninja award for the day. OP, that's not exactly an airtight analogy anyway. Duke Nuke'em isn't a public health concern, doesn't start fires by the highway and doesn't cause the streets to be filled with litter (calm down, flamers, I'm a smoker).ThatDaveDude1 said:
Keeping quiet about this sort of thing, or enjoying it for anything other than kitsch "value," IS bad for the more impressionable out there. And young kids are impressionable. Hell, many older kids are impressionable. It should be allowed to exist and anyone who wants to sell it should be able to. Then it should be called out for the pandering crap that it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJRrsLzjbII&feature=related - I Sent A Thank You Card To The Guy Who Raped You
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSTC8K05ytc - Women: Nature's Punching Bag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmwdjNv7mTc&feature=related - Domestic Violence Is Really, Really, Really Funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcEZG-0bSFA - I Became A Counselor So I Could Tell Rape Victims They Asked For It
All of these songs are from the same album and are infinitely more offensive than Duke Nukem will ever be.
There is much much more sexist things out there than Duke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSTC8K05ytc - Women: Nature's Punching Bag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmwdjNv7mTc&feature=related - Domestic Violence Is Really, Really, Really Funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcEZG-0bSFA - I Became A Counselor So I Could Tell Rape Victims They Asked For It
All of these songs are from the same album and are infinitely more offensive than Duke Nukem will ever be.
There is much much more sexist things out there than Duke.
It would get some men pissed off, but they need to grow thicker skin. It´s the same as with my previous argument. People who are offended are too sensitive. Actually, that "man" idea would actually be pretty good in a game with a female Duke Nukem! Think about it, you´ll haveto capture the man to bring him home and play to your bizarre sexual fantasies while at the same time spouting one-liners!chinangel said:
But here´s a question for you:
If this idea really did come up, do you think feminists would step in and defend men?
Honestly, sis, i think you´re picking straws here.
As to the first point: Yes that blanket statement would still apply, though it would receive far less sympathy and support. In the end, however, what is being discussed is DIGITAL REPRESENTATIONS. Any "person" being butt-slapped (or lynched) would ultimately be a computer-generated fantasy.psyks said:I nearly agreed with you up until this bit. This is a terrible blanket statement to make. What about if there was a game where you played a white supremacist and just lynched black guys? Would that statement of - it's not aimed at black guys so why are they complaining? - still apply? Probably not.AllLagNoFrag said:
That's a terrible false equivalency that Penny arcade have made before. Simply put, misogyny is something that everyone can be influenced to partake in. Killing people on the battlefield isn't.DeadlyYellow said:This seems to be the popular reply that's circulating the other topics.
Time to mooch.
If anyone's aware of the dickwolf thing, these dudes displayed rather conclusively that they didn't care to understand feminism when they offended rape victims and didn't feel the need to act diplomatically (to summarise a long argument).
THAT SAID. It's incredibly fucking hypocritical for FOX news to come out against discrimination of any sort and I haven't played the game. I get that Duke Nukem is a joke but I don't think that sexism that can be seen as unironic like I've heard this game mode described isn't funny or good for anyone.
As to the second point: You have nice scarecrow [straw-man] there because killing people on a battlefield is, indeed, something in which "everyone" can be influenced to participate. Actually getting "everyone" to do so would require a sociological mastermind, but it could be done. Hell, WWII was as close as we, as a species, have come to doing just that, and that was only 70 years ago! And everyone involved felt completely justified if their side should win!!!
As to the third point: Penny Arcade is so obviously a joke website that anyone who believes the creators of it to be serious needs to get themselves informed, and fast! That said, since comedy MUST have no boundaries placed upon it in order to be ethical, apologizing for anything they have done in the past would be not only unethical but hypocritical. And apparently you think only women can be raped by men, and that men, somehow and for some reason, do not rape other men.
Bottom line: If murder of any sort can be lampooned, then so can anything and everything else.
I remember that episode, and found it interesting. So I read up on their claim that the study that showed that Second Hand smoke caused cancer was poorly done. And they were right. So another, robust, peer reviewed, reliable study was done. It showed that second hand smoke caused cancer. I do enjoy Penn and Teller, but they go out to prove their point, not to find the truth. Because of that, I enjoy them more when they are debating something that is obviously bullshit, like Astrology or New Age medicine.ThatDaveDude1 said:AllLagNoFrag said:
I feel that for better or for worse, it's still a form of art that contributes influence to society. It's the responsibility of each member of that society to make sure the influence isn't negative, and I feel, as I assume you do, that racism and sexism contributes negatively to society. The question then resolves itself to "does this game contribute to that influence?". Neither of us can know that for sure, partly because we haven't played the game yet, and partly because we're not omniscient. That's why debate and enquiry exists.Espsychologist said:
That's not really a straw man and you really just backed up my claim. Casual sexism displayed in popular culture translates much more easily to real world actions than war does. As you said, everyone can be influenced to participate in war, but it was a huge propaganda campaign, as well as nationalistic tensions which were left over from the first world war that polarised people during the second world war. Now, whether or not war games make people violent or polarise them in the same way we saw during the first half of the 20th century is really a moot point since it has little bearing on the argument and isn't at all equivalent to misogyny.
I don't think I mentioned anything particular about the dickwolves thing and I most certainly didn't claim that rape doesn't concern men. Indeed, statistics show that on average, 1 in 33 men are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. The figure for women is 1 in 6. Not that it becomes a less important crime for men, simply that feminist groups are more closely involved.
With regards to the comic, I was simply making the point that Penny Arcade make un-nuanced, obnoxious statements like saying that sexism isn't important or rape is ok to make light of, without thinking about their actions. It's basically the same excuse that the daily show uses, where it's often assumed that nobody takes anything but humour away from comedy, which isn't true. If you think that you aren't constantly analysing everything you absorb, including seemingly harmless comedy, in order to form opinions and world views, then you're mistaken.
Some comedians can work in areas like that successfully because they own it. When it's a webcomic, whose writers aren't the most sensitive of people, the result is much more snidey and superior.