E3 Killjoy 2010

nipsen

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..I usually agree with you about 99% of the time, Shamus. But you're wrong on the reason to be skeptical about either Natal or the Arc-thing :) The tech behind the Arc.. move... is solid. It's something that should have been what introduced motion gaming, and it's a much easier system to port from other kinds of peripherals because of the mapping in three dimensions (along with the twist along the z-axis). The occlusion detection as well is extremely good - if you've seen it in action, you're starting to wonder why in the world no one is actually interested more in this part of the move. Because we're really having some monstrous potential going on here.

The possible fail that can happen here, is that Sony manages to blow their first and third party support, and never get another title developed for the move-controls specifically during the life-time of the console. And that we're going to be stuck with wii remakes and hand-waving.

Basically, console devs may turn up with a one-hit wonder, but then get drowned out by devs using the same scheme and abstraction for motion gaming as is there with the wii, and that will be specifically made for 2d gestures, rather than tracking an object in 3d.

It's a bit on the same track with the Knitectt..Kint.. Natal. It won't actually work with hand-gestures, and with depth-perception we're talking about very simple motions. For example, instead of pushing gradually on a Katamari, we're talking about either off or on based on two distinct layers, or else we're talking about sensing activity with the hands on a particular area. This is not something that can be universally translated to any game, but has to be specifically made for particular titles where it actually makes sense to use it.

So in either of those cases, we have different but very similar problems at this time - that the coolest games on either platform has to be specifically made to only that system (..except I guess natal-games would also work with the move, just without the entire "dip your hand into the cyber-water" thing... :/ ).

In fact, it's like you say: the presentation Sony had wasn't very good. It's strange to cut Sony for advertising too much - but that's the problem here. Instead of showing what they have, which actually is impressive, they opted for more commercials and glossy fake families.

..admittedly, no one complained about that when MS did the same earlier, but hey..

But the tech behind the move is solid. There should be absolutely no doubt about that. It's accurate, it's real, it works, and it's the PC developer's dream to a much higher degree than any infra-red camera, or virtual gloves, or anything like that. It's also cheap, durable and without moving parts. It's solid, it works.

The question is if there will be more games like Kung-Fu Rider made (with dynamic animation fitted to the move-controller, and action that really is responsive to what you're doing at all times, not just in waggle-events) - or if we end up with a slew of "console-games" with waggle support. That's what's going to make or break this.

And it's almost the same with the other systems - it's whether games are specifically made to them that will make them work well, or be worth buying. Whether we will get some hotspot on the rails experiences with Natal that really are smoking hot, just as whether Zelda is going to work neatly on the wii+.

Of course, you will notice that only the move is actually capable of mapping some accurate movement, and that it's the only system on the market with 3d orientation. So that it actually doesn't require devs to create gestures to work in particular games, and will be able to go further. We could for example see the first space-sim on a console now (someone hire Particle Systems back, hm?). Or imagine playing Homeworld or Nexus: the Jupiter Incident style games on your HD screen? This kind of thing could be freaking great.

But... Sony. So until they stop deliberately screwing everything up... skepticism. ..just not for the reasons you gave there in the article..
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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rsvp42 said:
Therumancer said:
However, looking at the site again, I can see why you'd pine for more updates from the Light Side. If they continue to use the Sith to showcase all the new content, then those of us interested in the Jedi and whatnot may be justified in wanting some more balance. But then again, just because the developers decide to use a particular faction to introduce new content, doesn't mean there's cause for worry. Hopefully coming updates will level the field a bit.
Well the point I'm making here is that it took both the Trooper and the Jedi working together to actually put down a Sith. What's more one of the major problems with this game to begin with is the perceived viability of non-force wielding classes. This would have been an awesome time to have some troopers clean house on a bunch of force users, but that isn't the approach we saw. Rather we got to see another battle that degenerated into a Jedi Vs. Sith battle with the Sith coming out ahead until another hero intervened enough to turn the tide.

Now, we know from the movies that relatively normal guys are supposed to be able to take down force users. I mean Qui-Gon himself pointed out that Jedi aren't invincible. Yet really the only guys we've seen who came close to fitting that bill were the Fetts... oh and wait, the Sith side has both the Sith *AND* The Bounty Hunters (who should be neutral, but there is no neutral faction).

The issue as I see it is that right now we have seen TWO major cinematic trailers, and both pretty much could be summarized as "look, the Sith faction is made of pure awesome!".

Even if there is game balance, it's important to note that this kind of promotion is going to CREATE a numerical imbalance. What's more if this is what's inspiring the artists, I think it makes bias in the development really obvious.

All this comes down to opinion, but again consider that we're nearing the release and I don't think I've seen anything that has really shown much favor towards the good guys.

-

Otherwise I *DO* stand corrected on the bit about World Of Warcraft being the first faction based game.

-

Also as far as the pics of the various sides someone put up, it does make a point. However I see no real reason why the good guys can't be made just as cool for the MMO. I mean honestly, when we played KoTR Jedi/good guys could put on some pretty cool looking armor themselves for example.

We'll see what winds up happening, but right now it seems like this needs some really, really serious work.
 

cjackson92

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DeadlyYellow said:
Great read as always.

X-Com... 50 style game based around alien invasion? Sounds familiar. I can't wait for the obligatory zapper and gravity gun.

I also choked reading that Ubisoft bit. Teach me to try and drink and read.

Shamus Young said:
After defending their platform as the choice for real men, Sony has showed up to the party dressed in drag.
Sony always came off as the type of bad wife in the marriage. Sure starting out everything was great, a little more expensive than some other floozy consoles, but still an enjoyable time. But now the honeymoon has passed and Sony is revealed to be more nagging that originally expected. First she starts taking away some of your old hobbies, then the predictable weight crisis, and now the rampant jealousy and impersonation of someone she thought she saw you gawk at.
That's a pretty good analogy. I'm still quite happy with my Playstation I just wish they would give up trying to be what they aren't.
 

rsvp42

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Therumancer said:
We'll see what winds up happening, but right now it seems like this needs some really, really serious work.
Perhaps, but only in the areas of promotional content. It looks like the game itself is shaping up really nicely. We've still got a year until the anticipated release and that's plenty of time for a Light Side media blitz. Looking at the video lineup on their site, I'm guessing the dark side just has the most development so far. That, or they have a specific plan for releasing content and some dark side stuff has just happened to come first.

I don't have any intention of changing your mind or anything, I'm just calling it like I see it, same as you. If you're basing this on the cinematic trailers, both of them just make me want to play the light side more, which is strangely the opposite of how I am with WoW; I'm a diehard Horde fan. I'm hoping that I'm not the only one who feels that way and that these two factions won't be copies of WoW's factions in terms of player make-up. If your concern is based on the other content that has been released, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sith Warrior is the only class with an official preview video right now, save for that Bounty Hunter armor progression. And we've seen Smuggler and Trooper gameplay in one of the preview videos. It's not like they won't release any official Jedi info before the game comes out. And when they do, it'll probably look better because the game will be further developed. Or it'll happen next week, who knows?

Again, I think it's just too early to make any calls. I think your concerns are valid though, don't get me wrong. Player balance will be tough when the two sides are basically good vs. bad. There will be a lot of players who will automatically choose Sith because they're "evil and awesome," but that can't be helped. There's probably a large pool of players ready to whip out some green and blue light sabers. Lets hope that when we see the Jedi dishing out justice, people will get psyched about that too.

Another thing though, when it comes to gameplay, do we know much about how pvp will be set up? Faction balance is only really important if the pvp makes it so (or if there's competition in PvE). For instance, if "battlegrounds" consist of instanced, skill-based matchups, then imbalances on any given server are less noticeable. If it's open-world combat zones, then a less-populated or weaker faction could be a major problem.

So I'm saying you're right to be concerned, but you're probably concerned too early :p


EDIT: I'm actually reminded of how Blizzard handled the Starcraft 2 information. For the longest time, we didn't see much in the way of Zerg content, but there was never any risk of the Zerg getting jilted. Sometimes developers just have quirky ways of updating the fans.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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rsvp42 said:
Therumancer said:
We'll see what winds up happening, but right now it seems like this needs some really, really serious work.
Perhaps, but only in the areas of promotional content. It looks like the game itself is shaping up really nicely. We've still got a year until the anticipated release and that's plenty of time for a Light Side media blitz. Looking at the video lineup on their site, I'm guessing the dark side just has the most development so far. That, or they have a specific plan for releasing content and some dark side stuff has just happened to come first.

I don't have any intention of changing your mind or anything, I'm just calling it like I see it, same as you. If you're basing this on the cinematic trailers, both of them just make me want to play the light side more, which is strangely the opposite of how I am with WoW; I'm a diehard Horde fan. I'm hoping that I'm not the only one who feels that way and that these two factions won't be copies of WoW's factions in terms of player make-up. If your concern is based on the other content that has been released, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sith Warrior is the only class with an official preview video right now, save for that Bounty Hunter armor progression. And we've seen Smuggler and Trooper gameplay in one of the preview videos. It's not like they won't release any official Jedi info before the game comes out. And when they do, it'll probably look better because the game will be further developed. Or it'll happen next week, who knows?

Again, I think it's just too early to make any calls. I think your concerns are valid though, don't get me wrong. Player balance will be tough when the two sides are basically good vs. bad. There will be a lot of players who will automatically choose Sith because they're "evil and awesome," but that can't be helped. There's probably a large pool of players ready to whip out some green and blue light sabers. Lets hope that when we see the Jedi dishing out justice, people will get psyched about that too.

Another thing though, when it comes to gameplay, do we know much about how pvp will be set up? Faction balance is only really important if the pvp makes it so (or if there's competition in PvE). For instance, if "battlegrounds" consist of instanced, skill-based matchups, then imbalances on any given server are less noticeable. If it's open-world combat zones, then a less-populated or weaker faction could be a major problem.

So I'm saying you're right to be concerned, but you're probably concerned too early :p


EDIT: I'm actually reminded of how Blizzard handled the Starcraft 2 information. For the longest time, we didn't see much in the way of Zerg content, but there was never any risk of the Zerg getting jilted. Sometimes developers just have quirky ways of updating the fans.

Well, with the time it takes to develop content and such I think six months or so is the right time to be concerned, if you expect there to be any changes. I mean if you notice the problem a month before release... well there is nothing that can be done at that point.

As far as overall competition goes, well if the game has any kind of open-world PVP... not "PVP anywhere" but specific objectives people can flag for in order to fight periodically and gain some kind of global advantage... overall balance issues become a factor. One of the big problems with "Warhammer" was that while it had instanced PVP, it also had castles and such out in the world that were fought over periodically on all servers. "Warcraft" has had control points on almost all the zone maps since Burning Crusade as well.

Controlling spirit towers in Burning Crusade for example allowed your faction (and only your faction) to collect spirit shards from PVE instance bosses as long as you held it. Those shards being tradable for gear (which was very nice when BC first went up). There have also been things like global damage boosts, rep rewards, etc...


Not to mention the simple competition to complete content and the like... as well as the fact that a faction that does well PVE also tends to do well in PVP due to better gear. If your side is stronger and is clearing instances quickly and more efficiently it means that when the PVPers from your side head into battle, even if there is no inherant character imblance within the PVP mechanics there is going to be a gear imbalance which will acheive the same thing.
 

warmonkey

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Therumancer said:
As far as overall competition goes, well if the game has any kind of open-world PVP... not "PVP anywhere" but specific objectives people can flag for in order to fight periodically and gain some kind of global advantage... overall balance issues become a factor. One of the big problems with "Warhammer" was that while it had instanced PVP, it also had castles and such out in the world that were fought over periodically on all servers. "Warcraft" has had control points on almost all the zone maps since Burning Crusade as well.
Meh. DAoC did PvP that turned into Zerg v Zerg often, and did it pretty well. It wasn't ALWAYS ZvZ, and even if there was an insurmountably large zerg there were options to deal with it besides direct confrontation.. talkin New Frontiers, supply chain teleporting and stuff, if you cut out a key keep their reinforcements from respawns would be delayed an extra 5-10 minutes.
It wouldn't really work in WoW though, since all their zones are basically leveling zones. If you're going to do something like that it pretty much has to be a separate area, only for PvP/RvR.


Not to mention the simple competition to complete content and the like... as well as the fact that a faction that does well PVE also tends to do well in PVP due to better gear. If your side is stronger and is clearing instances quickly and more efficiently it means that when the PVPers from your side head into battle, even if there is no inherant character imblance within the PVP mechanics there is going to be a gear imbalance which will acheive the same thing.
Well that's less a problem with MMOs and more a problem with the current MMO paradigm. Sure.. it works, I guess. I don't find it any fun. The whole PvE-endgame thing forces certain design decisions to be made that I don't care for -- if you have PvE-raiding or questing as or even PART of your end-game content, well, that only works if you have to re-run instances or replay content in some way. It takes time to design that stuff, and so they have to keep you there long enough for them to design more content. If there was no reward -- gear. -- there's no draw for PvE content, and so any time spent creating it becomes a complete waste as it's totally optional. No one's gonna pay a bunch of people a bunch of money to sit around making stuff that maybe people will do just for kicks but for no other reason.

So now you've got PvE timesinks that prevent you from quickly 'finishing' your character, and creating a barrier of entry before you're able to PvP. And you've got a system where new PvE content supercedes old PvE content -- a gear escalator and mudflation.

All of that leads to PvP that just isn't very fun, because your gear will wind up being a large determining factor in how well you do. At least, that's no fun for *me*.. some people will tolerate getting smashed in the face with a hammer for three months so they can get a cookie on their birthday. Some people are insane.

There's no law saying all MMOs have to do any of that, but they all do. Drives me up the wall. I'm not saying they're bad games, you're free to love them, WoW is a really well made game but it's not for me. And if you're really in to PvP you shouldn't take for granted that an MMO has to have a WoW-like PvE endgame.

I'm ranting because that kind of thinking was held by the dudes from Mythic, and it absolutely killed Warhammer. D: That game was a lot of fun from 1-20, and honestly the classes were really well-designed at least so far as fun. I had a lot of fun playing every class. Everyone I knew who played did. But they thought endgame had to be PvE or nobody would like it, because that's all that's really on the market, and ruined the endgame. And the only reason that's all that's on the market is because as far as I've been able to find nobody's released any MMO that has taken a chance and NOT copied the dominant model. Cowards, all of them. >:|
 

Snotnarok

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Yeah I'm on the bandwagon of couldn't care less about motion controls, I don't care who the company is, when you force motion controls into my games and I have no option to turn it off your game does not get bought by me.

In The New Super Mario Brothers they make you shake the controller, which makes me angry for lack of a classic controller option or perhaps a gamecube controller. While Ratchet and Clank KNEW the motion control would grate on peoples nerves and made it OPTIONAL.

Some developers do it smart, and give you options. Others just shove it in your face and say "suck it", and often said developers have fanboys that stand behind them glaring and say "And like it!!".
 

Bigeyez

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To be fair Old Republic did have a half hour of gameplay footage shown at E3 (it was on G4) and Bioware has released a number of gameplay videos on the Old Republic website...some to them date back months sooooo yyyeaaah.

Anyways the pessimistic side of me firmly agrees with this article. Everything is so much hype nowadays that I try to not get too worked up about a game until I see gameplay myself or multiple reviews.

RobfromtheGulag said:
You're missing out on some gems man! KotOR 1 is one of Bioware's best games, so if you like RPGs you should definitely pick that up. A number of the Rogue Squadron titles were very good if you still have a gamecube/N64...(coughemulatorcough) Then you have the Force Unleashed which is another excellent Star Wars game. Theres also Star Wars Empire at War if you like turn based strategy games. I'm probably forgetting a number of titles as well...oh and Star Wars Galaxy has nothing to do with the Old Republic. That was another game made by another company.

I'm not sure I get what your gripe is about DAO Origins either. It's an expansion pak not a sequel..It's meant to just add to your existing game, not totally reinvent it. Oh and BTW get Mass Effect 1 and 2, or at the very least rent them and decide if you want to buy them later. You're missing out on two wonderful games/stories by not giving the series a chance.
 

ahappycamper

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Sorry (Shamus) but you would have been a much more reliable source if you had watched E3 live. From what you say about not seeing any demonstration of the Kinect or Move I assume you didn't watch it.

Is wikipedia your primary source these days or something?
 

slopeslider

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Hey Shamus Young guy.
Nintendo doesn't make shovelware. At worst they allow it to exist.
Nintendo's products are usually pretty decent for their targeted age range at worst, and Mario galaxy 2 and ssbb epicness at best.
And making money off the shovel ware helped them a little bit to become financially successful and make the 3ds, the only thing from e3 I will actually preorder. As much we all hate it, no one makes us buy it, and some of the funds go towards awesome stuff.
 

sunpop

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Well shamus although you said they showed very little if any game play footage at e3 here is some year old footage from pax. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7WHHQokRGs

Remember this is a year old so things have changed but it's a cool 20 minutes.
 

Atmos Duality

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Chipperz said:
Are you kidding Shamus? Really? You seem to know at least something about this industry, and you're jumping on the "Motion Controls=Shovelware" bandwagon? Motion Controls don't equal shovelware, being the highest selling console does. The Wii is the highest-selling console, and it has tons of shit for it. Last generation, it was the PS2 that had piles of shit... And no motion controls! It was shovelware for the (utterly devoid of motion control, although they DID try to make a controller that worked via telepathy) Atari 2600 that caused the first Video Games crash!

Honestly, I expect this kind of crap from the leet kiddies that populate this site (and seem to have replaced the "I hate humanity" crowd...), but I thought you would have known better...
I'm glad someone finally said this: All systems. ALL. SYSTEMS. Have shovelware.
From the Atari to the PS3 to the PC. All of them.

That been said...

The Wii however, is unique.
It capitalizes on its shovelware; often doing as little as possible to actually innovate or make use of its own unique features. I've played a whopping TWO TITLES on the Wii that was original, fun, and had even a fraction of effort put into them.

All the Wii is, all it functionally can be, is the Gamecube 2.0. That waggling nonsense are literally button remaps of the Gamecube controller; the only practical difference system offers is pointing at the screen.
Yes, the zapper that came with Duck Hunt has more to do with gameplay innovation than flailing the controls around to press X and Y.
 

meglathon

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well to be honest i agre with all that you've pointed out. x-com -_-, TOR ya sweet...but..., Kenect or whatever 150$ not happing, motion control silly.

But... the Nintendo press conference, was a dream come true, since it was all core all the time. Only two many three casual games where shown the rest was what Nintendo was missing the last 2 years.
I'm sceptical about the 3DS and don't how well Zelda is going to work with the motions. But come ON Donkey Kong Country. can wait to see more.
 

Carnagath

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Xcom is an old franchise that could work today only as a faithful remake. It is too structured and introverted to work as anything else, because it is no longer Xcom. Yet developers keep taking shots at it, all of which have been embarrassing failures so far. It's like making Crusader: Deadly Racing and expecting it to somehow work. It won't. Realise it, and either rebuild Apocalypse from the ground up while staying true to its gameplay formula or make a different game with a different title.

Kinect is going to fail. We all know it, the same way we all know that the 3DS will be a success. Some of us have been gamers longer than many of today's developers. We can smell failures a mile away. It might sound arrogant, but it is true. Kinect costs 150$. It does not function well when you are seated. They are building racing sims based on the assumption that gamers will be standing up for 3 hours as if they are attending a funeral, pretending to be holding a steering wheel. It's a travesty.

As for Move, it is cheap enough to possibly qualify as a whim-purchase, so, while it does nothing new, I can see it being moderately successful.
 

Twilight_guy

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Nov 24, 2008
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Well everything in this article was... boring. I haven't hear anything out of E3 that interests me. Maybe my tempered spirit has played games long enough to suppress my excitement at new things or maybe my hype gland overexerted itself and died a while ago. Either way, it's nice to not be hyped because then if something is bad there is far less disappointment.

I really am loving the irony of how gamers everywhere called the Wii dumb and for casuals but seem to have positive things to say about the Microsoft and Sony knock-offs. It's going to be fun watching the shovel-wear pour in and the influx of casuals. Oh the fear in the eyes of every gamer that condemns casuals makes me smile. Fear that drivers there anger. You got motion control now, and casual gamers. Zippity doo dah, motherfuckers.
 

tendo82

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Nov 30, 2007
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The guy in the playstation move picture bears an uncanny resemblance to David Straithairn.

http://www.frameonline.it/FotoArticoli/ArtN28_DavidStrathairn-map-of-the-world.jpg