EA CEO: We Failed Well

[CardinalPiggles]

Sales say otherwise.

Sales do not equal quality.

sales equal company succes.

good marketing equal good sales

remember they keep track of the first month of sales, so if the marketing department did a good job, it sells well in the first month.

 

[Wrds]

I don't understand the ME2 bashing, aside from the overpriced DLC it was lightyears beyond the first game and quickly became my favorite BioWare game period. Maybe I'm not seeing what the other fans are though.

Sure sales don't equal quality, but anyone that plays ME2 objectively can tell its a high quality game with great design philosophies. The same can be said for many games that sold well but seem to be to have a small group of people that hate them.

There seems to be a sentiment that people share amongst all forms of media that as soon as something sells well, they should find fault with it. A lot of the times this can be right, but sometimes its just stupid. Take the most recent Muse album into consideration, definitely their highest produced and maybe their most creatively rich albums yet. But I have acquaintances that call them sell outs and douchebags because it sold well.

Maybe I'm blowing things out of proportion, and if so I apologize.

 

[luckshot]

I don't understand the ME2 bashing, aside from the overpriced DLC it was lightyears beyond the first game and quickly became my favorite BioWare game period. Maybe I'm not seeing what the other fans are though.

Sure sales don't equal quality, but anyone that plays ME2 objectively can tell its a high quality game with great design philosophies. The same can be said for many games that sold well but seem to be to have a small group of people that hate them.

There seems to be a sentiment that people share amongst all forms of media that as soon as something sells well, they should find fault with it. A lot of the times this can be right, but sometimes its just stupid. Take the most recent Muse album into consideration, definitely their highest produced and maybe their most creatively rich albums yet. But I have acquaintances that call them sell outs and douchebags because it sold well.

Maybe I'm blowing things out of proportion, and if so I apologize.

no it has more to do with the inventory, story, choices, and retconning done to the games(for me it was most apparent in ME2) that make them upset.


its like taking the wheels off a car because they're flat, now its less of a car but it can now focus on being a climate controlled power generation station...and as for those people who wanted a mode of conveyance instead, well they aren't real machine enthusiasts

 

[AndyFromMonday]

The way EA ruined the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises was just marvelous. I'm guessing "embracing failure" means buying good studios and turning their games into abominations of what they used to be.

Except that both Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins were made under EA as well and that whole thing called ME2 was widely praised as far better than the original.

Mass Effect was finished when EA bought Bioware. Dragon Age was in development since 2004. These two games were not in any way made under EA's guidance. The only games made under EA by Bioware were Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2.

The way EA ruined the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises was just marvelous. I'm guessing "embracing failure" means buying good studios and turning their games into abominations of what they used to be.

What turning terrible to actually good? ME 1 was boring as hell with a story that only got good once you were in 3/4 into the game. Terrible combat as well to match. ME 2 actually improved a lot on the combat and make the story and characters interesting enough. You and the rest of the people that hate ME 2 amaze me.

The story in Mass Effect 2 made absolutely no sense. The only good part of the story were the sidequests, mainly the loyalty and recruitment missions.

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004 <--- read it.

Mass Effect's improvement of the combat was not in any way "good" as some people might suggest. What they did was remove the RPG elements in favor of a more TPS approach. That is not in any way beneficial for an RPG game.

.......ok man let me try to explain this to you. Mass Effect is not an RPG or a 3rd person shooter its both combined which means its a ***** to balance both parts. Please understand that they focused more on gunplay for the second game because the first game was HORRIBLE to have a gun fight in and that problem was the most hated. Now they are giveing you more rpg elliments in the 3rd game so they are trying to please everyone so give them a break.

BTW DA2 is a great game just not what balders gate fans wanted.

Mass Effect IS in fact an RPG with shooter elements. It was not a third person shooter and it never tried to be one. If they improved the gunplay for a sequel then sure, no problem. Unfortunately, they didn't do that. They removed what made it an RPG and we ended up getting a mediocre TPS with interactive dialog. That does not make Mass Effect 2 a good game in any way.

Also, when has EA EVER said they were going to improve the RPG elements of the 3rd game? They specifically said they're "tweaking" the game, specifically the shooting aspect, to appeal to a wider audience. This is an OBVIOUS money grab. They're making the game a third person shooter basically and giving how much the 2nd one sucked I can't imagine how shit the 3rd one is going to be.

There are no redeeming qualities to Dragon Age 2. It was rushed, it had a horrible story and my fucking cat could finish the combat encounters in less than 10 seconds that is.

The way EA ruined the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises was just marvelous. I'm guessing "embracing failure" means buying good studios and turning their games into abominations of what they used to be.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, though I know for a fact that there is a shitstorm of people who have thoroughly enjoyed the latest Bioware games. I'm proud to count myself amoung them.

Good for you. That does not change the fact that the game was subpar

FYI - You seriously lose all credibility when you state your obvious OPINIONS as Facts. People aren't blind like you, they can see the difference.

Show us a hard copy of your apparent Scientific Study where both Dragon Age 2 & Mass Effect 2 were deemed "bad" or "subpar" by law... and please cite your sources.

Plenty of people enjoyed both games. I'm no fan of EA... but I've enjoyed all of Bioware's games... I don't approve of all the things they do... but I've still enjoyed them regardless.

In my OPINION (See what I did there?), "fans" of Bioware, who constantly complain about Bioware making changes will lead to their demise. If everyone gets brainwashed into hating Bioware, they'll have a negative stigma and maybe will sell less... leading EA to think they are no longer profitable... and bye bye Bioware.

Stop hating on Bioware so much for making changes to their games that they actually think, might be improvements. If they left everything the same, a bunch of people who be complaining that they're stagnant and never change anything... they lose either way.

I state that my opinions are fact because they are not opinions. I'm analyzing the game, not sharing my opinion with the world. If I had, I would've just claimed it's a piece of shit and leave it at that.

I've already showed how the story in Mass Effect 2 made no sense. In case you missed it, here's Shamus Young's analysis of the story: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

In case you somehow missed the obvious when playing, the game is no longer focused on being an RPG. Firstly, you've got the change in stats whereas you can no longer personalize your character the way you want to. It's set in stone the moment you pick your class. Secondly, you no longer have any control over your squad mates. Thirdly, there is no management left to the player. Everything is done FOR you like you're some retarded monkey who doesn't understand simple multiplications.

There is no customization left. It was obvious the focus was on the shooting aspect of the game and unfortunately, that's not what an RPG should focus on. You could make the claim that it should be treated as TPS with RPG elements but then you'd just have a fairly retarded Gears of War clone.

I don't understand your loyalty to Bioware. Yes, they made great games in the past. As it stands however, they DO NOT make great games. In fact, they make mediocre games. If Bioware disappeared from the market then I'd be happy, since it would mean a different studio would take their place. Also, brainwashed? You talk so much about opinions and yet everytime someone dislikes anything about Bioware, or rather EA since they're the ones calling the shots now, they're supposedly brainwashed? That makes no sense to me. What Bioware has made since joining up with EA has been shit after shit. If you want to experience what Bioware truly had to offer, play some of their older games. Baldur's Gate might be hard to get into, hell I can't to this day but KOTOR is absolutely amazing and so is Jade Empire. Unfortunately, EA has corrupted yet another great studio.

Previous Bioware games were characterized by innovation. This time around Bioware games have come to be known by simplistic mechanics and sex scenes.

 

[Worr Monger]

I state that my opinions are fact because they are not opinions. I'm analyzing the game, not sharing my opinion with the world. If I had, I would've just claimed it's a piece of shit and leave it at that.

Yes, it is a FACT that they are YOUR OPINIONS... NOT that your OPINIONS are FACTS. Learn the difference. You made your analysis of the game and are sharing your OPINIONS of it on The Escapist.

I've already showed how the story in Mass Effect 2 made no sense. In case you missed it, here's Shamus Young's analysis of the story: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

Strange... this looks like Shamus Young's opinion of the story... not yours. It's nice that you both share similar views. But many of us still disagree with Shamus. I think he makes fair points, I don't agree with everything but that's his assessment.

In case you somehow missed the obvious when playing, the game is no longer focused on being an RPG. Firstly, you've got the change in stats whereas you can no longer personalize your character the way you want to. It's set in stone the moment you pick your class.

I missed nothing... it is focused on being an RPG just fine. You are playing the role of your own personal Commander Shepard: you choose a history, you choose your appearance, and you make decisions based on either your own morals... OR, if you enjoy ROLE PLAYING, you make decisions within the game based on how you think your Shepard should react. In Mass Effect 2, you continue this course of action. Just because there are fewer skill trees doesn't mean it's not an RPG, it just means there are fewer skill trees. They still exist, but are much more personalized to the classes present... other RPG tactics for Mass Effect 2 involve picking the right mix of squad mates to give yourself a fighting chance, leveling a specialized skill that will help you after earning a companion's loyalty (and choosing to even attain their loyalty in the first place), among other things. And don't give me that "it's the same as 'role playing' Marcus Fenix, Master Chief or the Doom Marine'"... because it's not, you can't make any choices that impact the actual outcome of the story, characters, or events. You're tied to the strict linear path of the story in these types of games.

Secondly, you no longer have any control over your squad mates.

Are you sure you played either Mass Effect game? You had the same type of control over your squad in ME1 that you did in ME2. You can't control them directly as in Dragon Age, but you can direct them to certain locations, and target their specialized skills at specific enemies.. that hasn't changed. Unless you chose the option to allow your squad to use powers on their own... in which case, that's your fault. Maybe they don't have a "Hold Position" option in ME2 that you had in ME1... but I don't remember it being very useful when the majority of enemies ran straight up your nose anyway.

Thirdly, there is no management left to the player. Everything is done FOR you like you're some retarded monkey who doesn't understand simple multiplications.

Sure it is... if you hit the "Auto Level Up" option. I recall picking my own leveling options... and they weren't twisting your arm to find/purchase all the tech upgrades... your Shepard might fail the final mission if you aren't prepared like you should be... but hey.. that's role playing for you.

There is no customization left. It was obvious the focus was on the shooting aspect of the game and unfortunately, that's not what an RPG should focus on. You could make the claim that it should be treated as TPS with RPG elements but then you'd just have a fairly retarded Gears of War clone.

I customized the skills that my Shepard & squad based on what I thought was most useful.. and these leveled up skills definitely became more useful and powerful towards the end of the game.. like any RPG. I also picked the weapons that I thought were most useful given the situation (example: take the Arc Projector if you're boarding a Geth ship... might come in handy..). The options were more simplified, but I preferred that to sifting through ass-loads of loot in ME1. I also believe the shooting aspect needed to be redone in ME2.. as I explained above, enemies in ME1 would usually just charge you anyway, making cover almost useless... and quite frankly.. I'm a believer in: "if you shoot them in the head, you'll do more damage"... it doesn't make sense to give me the ability to aim at their head, but then tell me I hit them in the foot . But I'm also not against having a skill tree dictate my level of accuracy.

I don't understand your loyalty to Bioware. Yes, they made great games in the past. As it stands however, they DO NOT make great games. In fact, they make mediocre games. If Bioware disappeared from the market then I'd be happy, since it would mean a different studio would take their place. Also, brainwashed? You talk so much about opinions and yet everytime someone dislikes anything about Bioware, or rather EA since they're the ones calling the shots now, they're supposedly brainwashed? That makes no sense to me.

And I don't understand the recent crusade against Bioware by people like you. They continue to make great games. Not everyone is going to love them, but you can't please everyone. They're still one of the best developers around IN MY OPINION, and there are plenty of positive reviews out there to support my claim. If Bioware disappeared... you'd simply get a sad remnant of them that is completely melded into EA, like what happened to the C&C series. It's amazing that people seem to think that Bioware has absolutely no creative control over their games.... no, it's just a conspiracy, Bioware employees are just placeholders for the real EA developers making the games.. Give me a break.

I'm not going to say EA has no influence over them... of course not. But I'm sure they aren't micromanaging every creative aspect of Bioware's games, so get over yourself.

What Bioware has made since joining up with EA has been shit after shit. If you want to experience what Bioware truly had to offer, play some of their older games. Baldur's Gate might be hard to get into, hell I can't to this day but KOTOR is absolutely amazing and so is Jade Empire. Unfortunately, EA has corrupted yet another great studio.

Great, we agree on something... KOTOR is amazing. But what you fail to realize is that KOTOR's design is almost EXACTLY the same as Mass Effect and Dragon Age. You control a central character and converse with other NPC's making moral decisions that affect the overall ending. You have certain abilities to control your squad mates during battle. You can focus on melee (guns for ME) or Magical powers (The Force in KOTOR & Biotics in ME). You journey to various areas of the map (planets in KOTOR & ME) completing various quests, recruiting new allies, helping or killing people until you reach the overall big baddy at the end.

Previous Bioware games were characterized by innovation.

I think Mass Effect's continued story while importing all of your previous choices was great innovation. It didn't work as well for Dragon Age, but then... I don't think they knew what they were going to do after the long development cycle of that game, and didn't prepare as well. I'm sure many future RPG's (see The Witcher 2) will follow suit.

This time around Bioware games have come to be known by simplistic mechanics and sex scenes.

We nerds love our porn.

 

[ecoho]

The way EA ruined the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises was just marvelous. I'm guessing "embracing failure" means buying good studios and turning their games into abominations of what they used to be.

Except that both Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins were made under EA as well and that whole thing called ME2 was widely praised as far better than the original.

Mass Effect was finished when EA bought Bioware. Dragon Age was in development since 2004. These two games were not in any way made under EA's guidance. The only games made under EA by Bioware were Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2.

The way EA ruined the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises was just marvelous. I'm guessing "embracing failure" means buying good studios and turning their games into abominations of what they used to be.

What turning terrible to actually good? ME 1 was boring as hell with a story that only got good once you were in 3/4 into the game. Terrible combat as well to match. ME 2 actually improved a lot on the combat and make the story and characters interesting enough. You and the rest of the people that hate ME 2 amaze me.

The story in Mass Effect 2 made absolutely no sense. The only good part of the story were the sidequests, mainly the loyalty and recruitment missions.

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004 <--- read it.

Mass Effect's improvement of the combat was not in any way "good" as some people might suggest. What they did was remove the RPG elements in favor of a more TPS approach. That is not in any way beneficial for an RPG game.

.......ok man let me try to explain this to you. Mass Effect is not an RPG or a 3rd person shooter its both combined which means its a ***** to balance both parts. Please understand that they focused more on gunplay for the second game because the first game was HORRIBLE to have a gun fight in and that problem was the most hated. Now they are giveing you more rpg elliments in the 3rd game so they are trying to please everyone so give them a break.

BTW DA2 is a great game just not what balders gate fans wanted.

Mass Effect IS in fact an RPG with shooter elements. It was not a third person shooter and it never tried to be one. If they improved the gunplay for a sequel then sure, no problem. Unfortunately, they didn't do that. They removed what made it an RPG and we ended up getting a mediocre TPS with interactive dialog. That does not make Mass Effect 2 a good game in any way.

Also, when has EA EVER said they were going to improve the RPG elements of the 3rd game? They specifically said they're "tweaking" the game, specifically the shooting aspect, to appeal to a wider audience. This is an OBVIOUS money grab. They're making the game a third person shooter basically and giving how much the 2nd one sucked I can't imagine how shit the 3rd one is going to be.

There are no redeeming qualities to Dragon Age 2. It was rushed, it had a horrible story and my fucking cat could finish the combat encounters in less than 10 seconds that is.

The way EA ruined the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises was just marvelous. I'm guessing "embracing failure" means buying good studios and turning their games into abominations of what they used to be.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, though I know for a fact that there is a shitstorm of people who have thoroughly enjoyed the latest Bioware games. I'm proud to count myself amoung them.

Good for you. That does not change the fact that the game was subpar

FYI - You seriously lose all credibility when you state your obvious OPINIONS as Facts. People aren't blind like you, they can see the difference.

Show us a hard copy of your apparent Scientific Study where both Dragon Age 2 & Mass Effect 2 were deemed "bad" or "subpar" by law... and please cite your sources.

Plenty of people enjoyed both games. I'm no fan of EA... but I've enjoyed all of Bioware's games... I don't approve of all the things they do... but I've still enjoyed them regardless.

In my OPINION (See what I did there?), "fans" of Bioware, who constantly complain about Bioware making changes will lead to their demise. If everyone gets brainwashed into hating Bioware, they'll have a negative stigma and maybe will sell less... leading EA to think they are no longer profitable... and bye bye Bioware.

Stop hating on Bioware so much for making changes to their games that they actually think, might be improvements. If they left everything the same, a bunch of people who be complaining that they're stagnant and never change anything... they lose either way.

I state that my opinions are fact because they are not opinions. I'm analyzing the game, not sharing my opinion with the world. If I had, I would've just claimed it's a piece of shit and leave it at that.

I've already showed how the story in Mass Effect 2 made no sense. In case you missed it, here's Shamus Young's analysis of the story: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

In case you somehow missed the obvious when playing, the game is no longer focused on being an RPG. Firstly, you've got the change in stats whereas you can no longer personalize your character the way you want to. It's set in stone the moment you pick your class. Secondly, you no longer have any control over your squad mates. Thirdly, there is no management left to the player. Everything is done FOR you like you're some retarded monkey who doesn't understand simple multiplications.

There is no customization left. It was obvious the focus was on the shooting aspect of the game and unfortunately, that's not what an RPG should focus on. You could make the claim that it should be treated as TPS with RPG elements but then you'd just have a fairly retarded Gears of War clone.

I don't understand your loyalty to Bioware. Yes, they made great games in the past. As it stands however, they DO NOT make great games. In fact, they make mediocre games. If Bioware disappeared from the market then I'd be happy, since it would mean a different studio would take their place. Also, brainwashed? You talk so much about opinions and yet everytime someone dislikes anything about Bioware, or rather EA since they're the ones calling the shots now, they're supposedly brainwashed? That makes no sense to me. What Bioware has made since joining up with EA has been shit after shit. If you want to experience what Bioware truly had to offer, play some of their older games. Baldur's Gate might be hard to get into, hell I can't to this day but KOTOR is absolutely amazing and so is Jade Empire. Unfortunately, EA has corrupted yet another great studio.

Previous Bioware games were characterized by innovation. This time around Bioware games have come to be known by simplistic mechanics and sex scenes.

ok first off if your read the arcticals on the ecapist you would already know of the returning RPG elements. second no it was never just an rpg with 3rd person shooter elements they developers stated this 4 yes FOUR!!!!! years ago that they wanted a hybrid of the two from the get go but were limited at the time of the first game. finaly and most importantly everything you have said is your opinion, let me say that again YOUR OPINION!!!!!! do not mistake it for fact. now i beleave we are all entitled to our own opinions but you my friend have lost the right for me to listion as you will not debate you just stat that your right and all of us are wrong.

now this last part is for all those other who are reasonible please DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Yes, it is a FACT that they are YOUR OPINIONS... NOT that your OPINIONS are FACTS. Learn the difference. You made your analysis of the game and are sharing your OPINIONS of it on The Escapist.

I'm not sharing my opinion of the game, I'm providing arguments supporting the fact that the game plain sucks. Whether you enjoy it or not is irrelevant. Let me give you an analogy.

Scientist A believes Terra revolves around the sun. Scientist A provides arguments and evidence to support his clause. Is this still an opinion or is it fact?

Strange... this looks like Shamus Young's opinion of the story... not yours. It's nice that you both share similar views. But many of us still disagree with Shamus. I think he makes fair points, I don't agree with everything but that's his assessment.

Okay then, what do you disagree with in his analysis? I find it to be extremely on point, providing arguments that just plain and simple cannot be debunked.

I missed nothing... it is focused on being an RPG just fine. You are playing the role of your own personal Commander Shepard: you choose a history, you choose your appearance, and you make decisions based on either your own morals... OR, if you enjoy ROLE PLAYING, you make decisions within the game based on how you think your Shepard should react. In Mass Effect 2, you continue this course of action. Just because there are fewer skill trees doesn't mean it's not an RPG, it just means there are fewer skill trees. They still exist, but are much more personalized to the classes present... other RPG tactics for Mass Effect 2 involve picking the right mix of squad mates to give yourself a fighting chance, leveling a specialized skill that will help you after earning a companion's loyalty (and choosing to even attain their loyalty in the first place), among other things. And don't give me that "it's the same as 'role playing' Marcus Fenix, Master Chief or the Doom Marine'"... because it's not, you can't make any choices that impact the actual outcome of the story, characters, or events. You're tied to the strict linear path of the story in these types of games.

The thing is, you're NOT playing your "personal" Shepard. Your backstory has little to no impact on the game and whilst the appearance options are all fine and dandy they're extremely limiting.

The morality system in the game is extremely simplistic. You either choose what the game considers to be the "good" choice or you choose what the game considers to be the bad choice with absolutely no grey areas in between. I think this was addressed in Shamus's article. If you skim through it a bit I'm sure you'll reach that area.

The skill trees were there to provide a sense of personality to your character. I could build him X way or Y way. This time it's all very straightforward, leaving no sense of customization at all. There's also the fact that gear has all but disappeared from the game.

Also, right mix of squadmates? You could choose any combination of squad mates and you could survive any encounter with minimal effort.

Mass Effect 2's story is still extremely linear except for the end, where you're given another "Bad or Good" choice.

Are you sure you played either Mass Effect game? You had the same type of control over your squad in ME1 that you did in ME2. You can't control them directly as in Dragon Age, but you can direct them to certain locations, and target their specialized skills at specific enemies.. that hasn't changed. Unless you chose the option to allow your squad to use powers on their own... in which case, that's your fault. Maybe they don't have a "Hold Position" option in ME2 that you had in ME1... but I don't remember it being very useful when the majority of enemies ran straight up your nose anyway.

I meant customization. You can no longer customize your squad mates at all.

Sure it is... if you hit the "Auto Level Up" option. I recall picking my own leveling options... and they weren't twisting your arm to find/purchase all the tech upgrades... your Shepard might fail the final mission if you aren't prepared like you should be... but hey.. that's role playing for you.

Except the so called "roleplaying" involved gathering an arbitrary amount of resources by playing a boring, repetitive and monotonous minigame.

I customized the skills that my Shepard & squad based on what I thought was most useful.. and these leveled up skills definitely became more useful and powerful towards the end of the game.. like any RPG. I also picked the weapons that I thought were most useful given the situation (example: take the Arc Projector if you're boarding a Geth ship... might come in handy..). The options were more simplified, but I preferred that to sifting through ass-loads of loot in ME1. I also believe the shooting aspect needed to be redone in ME2.. as I explained above, enemies in ME1 would usually just charge you anyway, making cover almost useless... and quite frankly.. I'm a believer in: "if you shoot them in the head, you'll do more damage"... it doesn't make sense to give me the ability to aim at their head, but then tell me I hit them in the foot . But I'm also not against having a skill tree dictate my level of accuracy.

The skills tree is extremely limited. In the end you have two choices and each of them fares just as well.

How does it not make sense? You aimed for the head but your inexperience with that particular weapon made you miss. This is what an RPG is about. Building your own, personalized character. When you start out, you're an empty glass. It's your decision as to what you want to fill that glass with. You're an inexperienced recruit if you will waiting to become an experienced and hardened soldier. This is how Dragon Age: Origins treated you and it worked wonderfully. The problem with Mass Effect was that people never actually played an RPG with TPS elements. It makes sense for an inexperienced character to not be good at wielding weapons, using abilities, commanding his squad etc. As the game progresses, you become more experienced. You're able to aim better, be a better commander etc. You build YOUR character. That is why you "missed" and that is why you weren't able to use every single ability from the start.

An RPG is supposed to let you roleplay your character from the very beginning. YOU decide what he or she becomes. Mass Effect is not an RPG in any way. It's a mediocre TPS with RPG elements and from what I've read, they're downplaying the RPG elements even more for the 3rd entry in the series.

And I don't understand the recent crusade against Bioware by people like you. They continue to make great games. Not everyone is going to love them, but you can't please everyone. They're still one of the best developers around IN MY OPINION, and there are plenty of positive reviews out there to support my claim. If Bioware disappeared... you'd simply get a sad remnant of them that is completely melded into EA, like what happened to the C&C series. It's amazing that people seem to think that Bioware has absolutely no creative control over their games.... no, it's just a conspiracy, Bioware employees are just placeholders for the real EA developers making the games.. Give me a break.

I'm not going to say EA has no influence over them... of course not. But I'm sure they aren't micromanaging every creative aspect of Bioware's games, so get over yourself

No they don't. In fact, they haven't made a good game since Dragon Age: Origins. Each game has been dumbed down. Just look at Mass Effect. A mildly complicated RPG with TPS elements turned into a TPS with simplified RPG elements. The same happened with the Dragon Age series. The first game was a wonderful nod to older RPG's like Bladur's Gate. It had a mature and interesting plot etc. The sequel, however, simplified everythign including the story and choice mechanics, effectively making the story one big linear mess until the end.

Bioware DOES have SOME creative control over their games, I'm not denying that. What I'm trying to say, and this is plain and simple fact, is the relationship between developer and publisher is never a good one. When a publisher aquires a studio, every IP that belonged to that studio is now theirs and the studio itself becomes a division of it, aka the publisher. When the time comes to create a game, the publisher, in this case EA, provides a rough sketch of what sort of game they want made. This can include something as vague as "shooter" to something more complex that details the story structure, gameplay type, character's personality etc. After that, they set a deadline and ask the developer how much money they need. The developer then has to finish the game in the required timeline. This is the current relationship between EA and Bioware. EA provides the sketch, be it simplistic or be it complex then sets the deadline. This is why Dragon Age 2 was rushed and ended up the mess it is now and this is why the Mass Effect franchise was revived after the first game pretty much tied up all loose ends. As you can see, EA CAN and DOES manage everything their employees do by providing a sketch of what sort of game they should make. This is why we've been seeing such an abundance of DLC in games made by Bioware and this is why DA2 was rushed and made in less than 9 months.

Oh, by the way, there are no Bioware employees. In fact, there is no Bioware anymore. Every single employee Bioware had is now an employee of EA Games. The current "Bioware" is considered a division of EA Games. There is no Bioware anymore.

Great, we agree on something... KOTOR is amazing. But what you fail to realize is that KOTOR's design is almost EXACTLY the same as Mass Effect and Dragon Age. You control a central character and converse with other NPC's making moral decisions that affect the overall ending. You have certain abilities to control your squad mates during battle. You can focus on melee (guns for ME) or Magical powers (The Force in KOTOR & Biotics in ME). You journey to various areas of the map (planets in KOTOR & ME) completing various quests, recruiting new allies, helping or killing people until you reach the overall big baddy at the end.

KOTOR is much more similar to Dragon Age than Mass Effect in pretty much every way. Hell, I'm playing through it right now.

I think Mass Effect's continued story while importing all of your previous choices was great innovation. It didn't work as well for Dragon Age, but then... I don't think they knew what they were going to do after the long development cycle of that game, and didn't prepare as well. I'm sure many future RPG's (see The Witcher 2) will follow suit

The choices you made during the first game had very little impact on what happened in the 2nd game. Overall, everything looked and played the same except for a few lines here and there. I'd have liked to see a much more dramatic impact. Whilst Bioware pioneered the field, it still hasn't gotten it's masterpiece yet.

We nerds love our porn.

If romance is done right it can be a joy to watch it develop in a game. Still, sex scenes just plain look weird and the same applies for kissing. Still, LA Noire's face recognition might change that.

ok first off if your read the arcticals on the ecapist you would already know of the returning RPG elements. second no it was never just an rpg with 3rd person shooter elements they developers stated this 4 yes FOUR!!!!! years ago that they wanted a hybrid of the two from the get go but were limited at the time of the first game. finaly and most importantly everything you have said is your opinion, let me say that again YOUR OPINION!!!!!! do not mistake it for fact. now i beleave we are all entitled to our own opinions but you my friend have lost the right for me to listion as you will not debate you just stat that your right and all of us are wrong.

now this last part is for all those other who are reasonible please DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be Frank I find it quite funny how attempting to debate on this site is considered "trolling". Also, what Bioware wanted from ME1 is irrelevant. They achieved something completely different.

 

[Worr Monger]

To be Frank I find it quite funny how attempting to debate on this site is considered "trolling". Also, what Bioware wanted from ME1 is irrelevant. They achieved something completely different.

Ok, so I skimmed through the response. Reading/Writing a wall of text was fun yesterday, but I have no desire to do so today. I myself, didn't see any of the arguments as trolling.... except for maybe the claiming your opinion as fact... when it's not... despite numerous people correcting you.

Scientist A believes Terra revolves around the sun. Scientist A provides arguments and evidence to support his clause. Is this still an opinion or is it fact?

It is fact, and I think you'll find very few people debating that fact with all the evidence present... because there's plenty of scientific research to prove it.

Now I'll give you an analogy.... A lot of people say The Godfather 2 is better than The Godfather 1, I would disagree. I can provide my reasons for why I think the first is better (I won't do it here)... yet both films are widely praised.

Now.. since I would compare a video game experience to a film experience (as I believe it's closer than comparing Mass Effect to the Earth rotating around the Sun...), I would say some people view and experience games/movies in different ways. They can like or dislike certain aspects and give their Opinions about why they think The Godfather 2 is a superior film. Others would disagree and present their argument explaining why the first is better. Neither film is better by Fact, simply by majority of Opinion. What is Fact.. is that both films are widely praised and largely considered some of the best films ever made... but you have the right to disagree and explain why you think so. See the difference?

The Earth rotates around the Sun.. because that's just what it physically does... there is no in-between... no middle ground, no point/counterpoint. Until someone can provide evidence to prove otherwise... it is simply a fact of existence.

But that's where I stop. I'm not going to bother debating further on Bioware... I already know it will lead to nothing. Haters gonna hate. I'll just take comfort in the fact that you and many others that hated ME2/DA2 and whatever else... will buy Mass Effect 3 (And you will) & possibly other Bioware games in the future regardless, even if out of pure curiosity. And if that continues... and Bioware is still profitable and able to continue to making great games that Myself and other like me still love... I will be content.

 

[Savber]

Ah listen to the whining of gamers... It would almost make you think that EA and Bioware ran over your kid or stabbed you in the heart.

I love how we complain that Bioware is not "innovating" which just screams ignorance on the issue.

Innovation: A new method, idea, product; the idea of creating something different

Bioware HAS been innovating in creating a better cinematic experience and broadening their appeal. Do all of us like it? Maybe not but innovation is still innovation as Bioware has shown itself to be unafraid in changing up the game. People might ***** how they're getting worse but it's only because we DISLIKE the innovations not because the game was bad. I'm sorry if ME2 wasn't your typical RPG but stop seeing the game as a failure simply because it doesn't suit your tastes.


Bioware doesn't suck because it's leaving the hardcore cRPG crowd or makes a game that doesn't appeal to you.

I think Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 3 will reveal the direction Bioware is going. Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 were the experiments for Bioware. The testing of the waters before deciding whether to take the plunge.

 

[ecoho]

Yes, it is a FACT that they are YOUR OPINIONS... NOT that your OPINIONS are FACTS. Learn the difference. You made your analysis of the game and are sharing your OPINIONS of it on The Escapist.

I'm not sharing my opinion of the game, I'm providing arguments supporting the fact that the game plain sucks. Whether you enjoy it or not is irrelevant. Let me give you an analogy.

Scientist A believes Terra revolves around the sun. Scientist A provides arguments and evidence to support his clause. Is this still an opinion or is it fact?

Strange... this looks like Shamus Young's opinion of the story... not yours. It's nice that you both share similar views. But many of us still disagree with Shamus. I think he makes fair points, I don't agree with everything but that's his assessment.

Okay then, what do you disagree with in his analysis? I find it to be extremely on point, providing arguments that just plain and simple cannot be debunked.

I missed nothing... it is focused on being an RPG just fine. You are playing the role of your own personal Commander Shepard: you choose a history, you choose your appearance, and you make decisions based on either your own morals... OR, if you enjoy ROLE PLAYING, you make decisions within the game based on how you think your Shepard should react. In Mass Effect 2, you continue this course of action. Just because there are fewer skill trees doesn't mean it's not an RPG, it just means there are fewer skill trees. They still exist, but are much more personalized to the classes present... other RPG tactics for Mass Effect 2 involve picking the right mix of squad mates to give yourself a fighting chance, leveling a specialized skill that will help you after earning a companion's loyalty (and choosing to even attain their loyalty in the first place), among other things. And don't give me that "it's the same as 'role playing' Marcus Fenix, Master Chief or the Doom Marine'"... because it's not, you can't make any choices that impact the actual outcome of the story, characters, or events. You're tied to the strict linear path of the story in these types of games.

The thing is, you're NOT playing your "personal" Shepard. Your backstory has little to no impact on the game and whilst the appearance options are all fine and dandy they're extremely limiting.

The morality system in the game is extremely simplistic. You either choose what the game considers to be the "good" choice or you choose what the game considers to be the bad choice with absolutely no grey areas in between. I think this was addressed in Shamus's article. If you skim through it a bit I'm sure you'll reach that area.

The skill trees were there to provide a sense of personality to your character. I could build him X way or Y way. This time it's all very straightforward, leaving no sense of customization at all. There's also the fact that gear has all but disappeared from the game.

Also, right mix of squadmates? You could choose any combination of squad mates and you could survive any encounter with minimal effort.

Mass Effect 2's story is still extremely linear except for the end, where you're given another "Bad or Good" choice.

Are you sure you played either Mass Effect game? You had the same type of control over your squad in ME1 that you did in ME2. You can't control them directly as in Dragon Age, but you can direct them to certain locations, and target their specialized skills at specific enemies.. that hasn't changed. Unless you chose the option to allow your squad to use powers on their own... in which case, that's your fault. Maybe they don't have a "Hold Position" option in ME2 that you had in ME1... but I don't remember it being very useful when the majority of enemies ran straight up your nose anyway.

I meant customization. You can no longer customize your squad mates at all.

Sure it is... if you hit the "Auto Level Up" option. I recall picking my own leveling options... and they weren't twisting your arm to find/purchase all the tech upgrades... your Shepard might fail the final mission if you aren't prepared like you should be... but hey.. that's role playing for you.

Except the so called "roleplaying" involved gathering an arbitrary amount of resources by playing a boring, repetitive and monotonous minigame.

I customized the skills that my Shepard & squad based on what I thought was most useful.. and these leveled up skills definitely became more useful and powerful towards the end of the game.. like any RPG. I also picked the weapons that I thought were most useful given the situation (example: take the Arc Projector if you're boarding a Geth ship... might come in handy..). The options were more simplified, but I preferred that to sifting through ass-loads of loot in ME1. I also believe the shooting aspect needed to be redone in ME2.. as I explained above, enemies in ME1 would usually just charge you anyway, making cover almost useless... and quite frankly.. I'm a believer in: "if you shoot them in the head, you'll do more damage"... it doesn't make sense to give me the ability to aim at their head, but then tell me I hit them in the foot . But I'm also not against having a skill tree dictate my level of accuracy.

The skills tree is extremely limited. In the end you have two choices and each of them fares just as well.

How does it not make sense? You aimed for the head but your inexperience with that particular weapon made you miss. This is what an RPG is about. Building your own, personalized character. When you start out, you're an empty glass. It's your decision as to what you want to fill that glass with. You're an inexperienced recruit if you will waiting to become an experienced and hardened soldier. This is how Dragon Age: Origins treated you and it worked wonderfully. The problem with Mass Effect was that people never actually played an RPG with TPS elements. It makes sense for an inexperienced character to not be good at wielding weapons, using abilities, commanding his squad etc. As the game progresses, you become more experienced. You're able to aim better, be a better commander etc. You build YOUR character. That is why you "missed" and that is why you weren't able to use every single ability from the start.

An RPG is supposed to let you roleplay your character from the very beginning. YOU decide what he or she becomes. Mass Effect is not an RPG in any way. It's a mediocre TPS with RPG elements and from what I've read, they're downplaying the RPG elements even more for the 3rd entry in the series.

And I don't understand the recent crusade against Bioware by people like you. They continue to make great games. Not everyone is going to love them, but you can't please everyone. They're still one of the best developers around IN MY OPINION, and there are plenty of positive reviews out there to support my claim. If Bioware disappeared... you'd simply get a sad remnant of them that is completely melded into EA, like what happened to the C&C series. It's amazing that people seem to think that Bioware has absolutely no creative control over their games.... no, it's just a conspiracy, Bioware employees are just placeholders for the real EA developers making the games.. Give me a break.

I'm not going to say EA has no influence over them... of course not. But I'm sure they aren't micromanaging every creative aspect of Bioware's games, so get over yourself

No they don't. In fact, they haven't made a good game since Dragon Age: Origins. Each game has been dumbed down. Just look at Mass Effect. A mildly complicated RPG with TPS elements turned into a TPS with simplified RPG elements. The same happened with the Dragon Age series. The first game was a wonderful nod to older RPG's like Bladur's Gate. It had a mature and interesting plot etc. The sequel, however, simplified everythign including the story and choice mechanics, effectively making the story one big linear mess until the end.

Bioware DOES have SOME creative control over their games, I'm not denying that. What I'm trying to say, and this is plain and simple fact, is the relationship between developer and publisher is never a good one. When a publisher aquires a studio, every IP that belonged to that studio is now theirs and the studio itself becomes a division of it, aka the publisher. When the time comes to create a game, the publisher, in this case EA, provides a rough sketch of what sort of game they want made. This can include something as vague as "shooter" to something more complex that details the story structure, gameplay type, character's personality etc. After that, they set a deadline and ask the developer how much money they need. The developer then has to finish the game in the required timeline. This is the current relationship between EA and Bioware. EA provides the sketch, be it simplistic or be it complex then sets the deadline. This is why Dragon Age 2 was rushed and ended up the mess it is now and this is why the Mass Effect franchise was revived after the first game pretty much tied up all loose ends. As you can see, EA CAN and DOES manage everything their employees do by providing a sketch of what sort of game they should make. This is why we've been seeing such an abundance of DLC in games made by Bioware and this is why DA2 was rushed and made in less than 9 months.

Oh, by the way, there are no Bioware employees. In fact, there is no Bioware anymore. Every single employee Bioware had is now an employee of EA Games. The current "Bioware" is considered a division of EA Games. There is no Bioware anymore.

Great, we agree on something... KOTOR is amazing. But what you fail to realize is that KOTOR's design is almost EXACTLY the same as Mass Effect and Dragon Age. You control a central character and converse with other NPC's making moral decisions that affect the overall ending. You have certain abilities to control your squad mates during battle. You can focus on melee (guns for ME) or Magical powers (The Force in KOTOR & Biotics in ME). You journey to various areas of the map (planets in KOTOR & ME) completing various quests, recruiting new allies, helping or killing people until you reach the overall big baddy at the end.

KOTOR is much more similar to Dragon Age than Mass Effect in pretty much every way. Hell, I'm playing through it right now.

I think Mass Effect's continued story while importing all of your previous choices was great innovation. It didn't work as well for Dragon Age, but then... I don't think they knew what they were going to do after the long development cycle of that game, and didn't prepare as well. I'm sure many future RPG's (see The Witcher 2) will follow suit

The choices you made during the first game had very little impact on what happened in the 2nd game. Overall, everything looked and played the same except for a few lines here and there. I'd have liked to see a much more dramatic impact. Whilst Bioware pioneered the field, it still hasn't gotten it's masterpiece yet.

We nerds love our porn.

If romance is done right it can be a joy to watch it develop in a game. Still, sex scenes just plain look weird and the same applies for kissing. Still, LA Noire's face recognition might change that.

ok first off if your read the arcticals on the ecapist you would already know of the returning RPG elements. second no it was never just an rpg with 3rd person shooter elements they developers stated this 4 yes FOUR!!!!! years ago that they wanted a hybrid of the two from the get go but were limited at the time of the first game. finaly and most importantly everything you have said is your opinion, let me say that again YOUR OPINION!!!!!! do not mistake it for fact. now i beleave we are all entitled to our own opinions but you my friend have lost the right for me to listion as you will not debate you just stat that your right and all of us are wrong.

now this last part is for all those other who are reasonible please DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be Frank I find it quite funny how attempting to debate on this site is considered "trolling". Also, what Bioware wanted from ME1 is irrelevant. They achieved something completely different.

you are not debateing you are dictating now if YOU had a problem with the game you have every right to say what your opinion is as long as you dont shove it on everyone else as fact, its not get over it.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Now.. since I would compare a video game experience to a film experience (as I believe it's closer than comparing Mass Effect to the Earth rotating around the Sun...), I would say some people view and experience games/movies in different ways. They can like or dislike certain aspects and give their Opinions about why they think The Godfather 2 is a superior film. Others would disagree and present their argument explaining why the first is better. Neither film is better by Fact, simply by majority of Opinion. What is Fact.. is that both films are widely praised and largely considered some of the best films ever made... but you have the right to disagree and explain why you think so. See the difference?

How much an audience likes a certain thing does not make it good. A lot of people like Twilight. Does that make it a good movie? By your own argument, giving Twilight's popularity it should be up there with the Godfather as one of the best movies ever made. How a good a movie or a game is does not depend on how much audiences love it.

The Earth rotates around the Sun.. because that's just what it physically does... there is no in-between... no middle ground, no point/counterpoint. Until someone can provide evidence to prove otherwise... it is simply a fact of existence.

It is but that's not what I'm trying to say. The fact is, no matter how much someone wants to believe otherwise the earth revolves around the sun. There are arguments to prove such. No matter how much someone enjoyed Mass Effect 2, it's a bad game. There are arguments to prove that.

But that's where I stop. I'm not going to bother debating further on Bioware... I already know it will lead to nothing. Haters gonna hate.

I never understood the mentality of people who use the "haters gonna hate" expression. Hate is such a strong word to imply dislike. It assumes I hate the game, that I want it killed, it's body mutilated and disolved in acid. I already said the game has its good moments. What I'm saying is that the game is way to praised for something that is mediocre most of the times.

. I'll just take comfort in the fact that you and many others that hated ME2/DA2 and whatever else... will buy Mass Effect 3 (And you will) & possibly other Bioware games in the future regardless, even if out of pure curiosity.

I didn't know you had superpowers. One would reasonably assume someone of your superiority would put them to better use but guessing my future is an amazing feat nevertheless.

And if that continues... and Bioware is still profitable and able to continue to making great games that Myself and other like me still love... I will be content.

This entire comment filled me with a joy I haven't experienced since I was a little boy. Not good joy, oh no. More like the sort of joy you experience when you hear someone make an extremely ironic remark.

you are not debateing you are dictating now if YOU had a problem with the game you have every right to say what your opinion is as long as you dont shove it on everyone else as fact, its not get over it.

Each video game is judged by a certain criteria which takes in account it's storytelling, its plot, it's gameplay etc. Mass Effect is mediocre. Deal with it. It's a fact, there's nothing more to it. You're not an idiot for enjoying it but that does not change the fact that the game is nothing but mediocre.

 

[ecoho]

Now.. since I would compare a video game experience to a film experience (as I believe it's closer than comparing Mass Effect to the Earth rotating around the Sun...), I would say some people view and experience games/movies in different ways. They can like or dislike certain aspects and give their Opinions about why they think The Godfather 2 is a superior film. Others would disagree and present their argument explaining why the first is better. Neither film is better by Fact, simply by majority of Opinion. What is Fact.. is that both films are widely praised and largely considered some of the best films ever made... but you have the right to disagree and explain why you think so. See the difference?

How much an audience likes a certain thing does not make it good. A lot of people like Twilight. Does that make it a good movie? By your own argument, giving Twilight's popularity it should be up there with the Godfather as one of the best movies ever made. How a good a movie or a game is does not depend on how much audiences love it.

The Earth rotates around the Sun.. because that's just what it physically does... there is no in-between... no middle ground, no point/counterpoint. Until someone can provide evidence to prove otherwise... it is simply a fact of existence.

It is but that's not what I'm trying to say. The fact is, no matter how much someone wants to believe otherwise the earth revolves around the sun. There are arguments to prove such. No matter how much someone enjoyed Mass Effect 2, it's a bad game. There are arguments to prove that.

But that's where I stop. I'm not going to bother debating further on Bioware... I already know it will lead to nothing. Haters gonna hate.

I never understood the mentality of people who use the "haters gonna hate" expression. Hate is such a strong word to imply dislike. It assumes I hate the game, that I want it killed, it's body mutilated and disolved in acid. I already said the game has its good moments. What I'm saying is that the game is way to praised for something that is mediocre most of the times.

. I'll just take comfort in the fact that you and many others that hated ME2/DA2 and whatever else... will buy Mass Effect 3 (And you will) & possibly other Bioware games in the future regardless, even if out of pure curiosity.

I didn't know you had superpowers. One would reasonably assume someone of your superiority would put them to better use but guessing my future is an amazing feat nevertheless.

And if that continues... and Bioware is still profitable and able to continue to making great games that Myself and other like me still love... I will be content.

This entire comment filled me with a joy I haven't experienced since I was a little boy. Not good joy, oh no. More like the sort of joy you experience when you hear someone make an extremely ironic remark.

you are not debateing you are dictating now if YOU had a problem with the game you have every right to say what your opinion is as long as you dont shove it on everyone else as fact, its not get over it.

Each video game is judged by a certain criteria which takes in account it's storytelling, its plot, it's gameplay etc. Mass Effect is mediocre. Deal with it. It's a fact, there's nothing more to it. You're not an idiot for enjoying it but that does not change the fact that the game is nothing but mediocre.

well i guess theres no reasoning with you so im just gonna ignore you now please do the same

 

[Worr Monger]

How much an audience likes a certain thing does not make it good. A lot of people like Twilight. Does that make it a good movie? By your own argument, giving Twilight's popularity it should be up there with the Godfather as one of the best movies ever made. How a good a movie or a game is does not depend on how much audiences love it.

NOW WE'RE LEARNING!!! By this same token... how much a certain audience hates something also does not necessarily make it bad either. It's perspective. There are people that hate ME2/DA2, etc. but it doesn't make them bad... NOR does the number of people that think they're good make the games "Factually Good" either.

Personally, I think Twilight sucked. But that's my Opinion. A lot of people like it, and good for them. But I bet you I could find a LOT more guys that think Twilight stinks than The Godfather. I also bet I could find more people say that The Godfather is a far superior film even if they remotely liked Twilight.

But I dare you to go around claiming Twilight is right up there with the Godfather... you have every right to have that opinion.. but a lot of people will laugh at you, I'm sure. My point was that based on overall reviews from critics and fans.. it could be argued to be one of the best films ever made... but you don't have to think so.

So my point with ME2/DA2... they received a lot of good reviews and have a large fanbase... calling them "Factually Bad" is just nonsense.

It is but that's not what I'm trying to say. The fact is, no matter how much someone wants to believe otherwise the earth revolves around the sun. There are arguments to prove such. No matter how much someone enjoyed Mass Effect 2, it's a bad game. There are arguments to prove that.

Indeed, there are arguments to validate ones point of view... or Opinion in this case. And it works both ways. I remember something Shamus Young saying about Shepard dying at the beginning of ME2 being bad storytelling... a fine a opinion... but I disagreed and posted my reasons why I believed otherwise. Again... perspective.

I never understood the mentality of people who use the "haters gonna hate" expression.

Then I shall enlighten you... it means that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing I can possibly say to sway your Opinions or views, you have your negative views on ME2 and that's that. You shall only accept victory in people agreeing that ME2 or whatever is shit. Granted... I likely won't be swayed in my love for it either, because I was OK with Bioware's directions for the most part... so in my case "Likers gonna Like". I'm actually wasting my time here... I'm still not sure why I keep posting. I'm bored at work I guess.

Also "Dislikers gonna Dislike" just doesn't flow as well.

I didn't know you had superpowers. One would reasonably assume someone of your superiority would put them to better use but guessing my future is an amazing feat nevertheless.

I do pride myself on such things... But when ME3 is released and you're here spouting the same garbage... I'll simply leave a friendly "I told you so".

This entire comment filled me with a joy I haven't experienced since I was a little boy. Not good joy, oh no. More like the sort of joy you experience when you hear someone make an extremely ironic remark.

What can I say? I'm a giver. But the REALLY ironic thing is... you're hate for Bioware & EA... yet you still play their games... and will likely continue doing so.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

By this same token... how much a certain audience hates something also does not necessarily make it bad either. It's perspective. There are people that hate ME2/DA2, etc. but it doesn't make them bad... NOR does the number of people that think they're good make the games "Factually Good" either.

You seem to not be able to understand what I'm trying say so please, read closely. There is a difference between saying you dislike a game and providing arguments to support your reasons for disliking it. When have I EVER claimed that if a lot of people hate something that makes it good? My Twilight example was there to show that JUST BECAUSE a certain amount of people like something that does not make it good.

You're contradicting yourself but from your last comment I believe you understand. HOW MANY PEOPLE LIKE SOMETHING does not make that something GOOD. This applies to Mass Effect 2 as well.

Personally, I think Twilight sucked. But that's my Opinion. A lot of people like it, and good for them. But I bet you I could find a LOT more guys that think Twilight stinks than The Godfather. I also bet I could find more people say that The Godfather is a far superior film even if they remotely liked Twilight.

This is not impossible to find out actually.

Twilight made $392 million at the box office.

The Godfather made $245 million at the box office.

We can reasonably conclude that more people went to see Twilight than the Godfather and therefore more people enjoyed it. Therefore Twilight is the better movie, at least by your logic.

Either way, I think your hate for Twilight is akin to "hater's gonna hate". It's an amazing film with great character development and an incredible plot that hooks you in from the moment Bella meets Edward to the exciting finale and I'm going to take solace in the fact that when the last film in the saga comes out you'll go see it.

So my point with ME2/DA2... they received a lot of good reviews and have a large fanbase... calling them "Factually Bad" is just nonsense.

So does Twilight. It didn't have a bad response with the critics and fans all over the world can't wait to see Breaking Dawn. It's in the exact same spot as Mass Effect 2. Calling it factually bad is just nonsense just like calling Mass Effect 2 factually good for having a large audience and being well received with the critics is nonsense.

Indeed, there are arguments to validate ones point of view... or Opinion in this case. And it works both ways. I remember something Shamus Young saying about Shepard dying at the beginning of ME2 being bad storytelling... a fine a opinion... but I disagreed and posted my reasons why I believed otherwise. Again... perspective.

That was actually one of the worst storytelling methods I've ever seen. What was the point of killing him? I understand there needed to be a reason for Shepard to join up with Cerberus but being killed in action and suddenly resurrected is just to convenient. Then there's also that tiny case of hate that Shepard expressed for Cerberus during the first game. He seems to eager to work for a corporation that in the first game were presented as batshit insane and incapable of organizing.

Then I shall enlighten you... it means that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing I can possibly say to sway your Opinions or views

Of course not. I played through Mass Effect 2 and whilst I did enjoy parts of it I don't consider it a good game. I don't understand why you defend Mass Effect 2 with such vehemence when, from my view at least, it should be enough that you enjoyed it. You have to realize that not everyone will like what you like. I don't like Mass Effect 2. I don't hate it, I dislike it. There's a big difference.

You shall only accept victory in people agreeing that ME2 or whatever is shit.

You're doing the same thing. You will never accept that the game is not good. This is why we will never each a conclusion.

Also "Dislikers gonna Dislike" just doesn't flow as well.

Then don't use such phrases. They're basically an attempt at undermining another persons argument whilst ignoring the points they make.

I do pride myself on such things... But when ME3 is released and you're here spouting the same garbage... I'll simply leave a friendly "I told you so".

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I will not be purchasing Mass Effect 3. The direction Bioware has been heading in after being bought by Bioware is not something I can say I'm fond of.

What can I say? I'm a giver. But the REALLY ironic thing is... you're hate for Bioware & EA... yet you still play their games... and will likely continue doing so./quote]


There you go again. This arrogance of yours is just plain vulgar. You talk like you know me as a person and know exactly what I will do with my money because for some reason everyone loves EA even though they say they don't. I don't hate Bioware and I thought I made this clear enough. What I do hate is EA and the direction they've forced Bioware to go in. I hate EA for destroying perfectly decent studios but I do not in any way hate Bioware. In fact, I don't hate EA. I dislike the way they conduct business. Like I've said before, hate is such a strong word to imply dislike that it simply doesn't fit when talking about companies, games or even movies.

 

[ecoho]

How much an audience likes a certain thing does not make it good. A lot of people like Twilight. Does that make it a good movie? By your own argument, giving Twilight's popularity it should be up there with the Godfather as one of the best movies ever made. How a good a movie or a game is does not depend on how much audiences love it.

NOW WE'RE LEARNING!!! By this same token... how much a certain audience hates something also does not necessarily make it bad either. It's perspective. There are people that hate ME2/DA2, etc. but it doesn't make them bad... NOR does the number of people that think they're good make the games "Factually Good" either.

Personally, I think Twilight sucked. But that's my Opinion. A lot of people like it, and good for them. But I bet you I could find a LOT more guys that think Twilight stinks than The Godfather. I also bet I could find more people say that The Godfather is a far superior film even if they remotely liked Twilight.

But I dare you to go around claiming Twilight is right up there with the Godfather... you have every right to have that opinion.. but a lot of people will laugh at you, I'm sure. My point was that based on overall reviews from critics and fans.. it could be argued to be one of the best films ever made... but you don't have to think so.

So my point with ME2/DA2... they received a lot of good reviews and have a large fanbase... calling them "Factually Bad" is just nonsense.

It is but that's not what I'm trying to say. The fact is, no matter how much someone wants to believe otherwise the earth revolves around the sun. There are arguments to prove such. No matter how much someone enjoyed Mass Effect 2, it's a bad game. There are arguments to prove that.

Indeed, there are arguments to validate ones point of view... or Opinion in this case. And it works both ways. I remember something Shamus Young saying about Shepard dying at the beginning of ME2 being bad storytelling... a fine a opinion... but I disagreed and posted my reasons why I believed otherwise. Again... perspective.

I never understood the mentality of people who use the "haters gonna hate" expression.

Then I shall enlighten you... it means that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing I can possibly say to sway your Opinions or views, you have your negative views on ME2 and that's that. You shall only accept victory in people agreeing that ME2 or whatever is shit. Granted... I likely won't be swayed in my love for it either, because I was OK with Bioware's directions for the most part... so in my case "Likers gonna Like". I'm actually wasting my time here... I'm still not sure why I keep posting. I'm bored at work I guess.

Also "Dislikers gonna Dislike" just doesn't flow as well.

I didn't know you had superpowers. One would reasonably assume someone of your superiority would put them to better use but guessing my future is an amazing feat nevertheless.

I do pride myself on such things... But when ME3 is released and you're here spouting the same garbage... I'll simply leave a friendly "I told you so".

This entire comment filled me with a joy I haven't experienced since I was a little boy. Not good joy, oh no. More like the sort of joy you experience when you hear someone make an extremely ironic remark.

What can I say? I'm a giver. But the REALLY ironic thing is... you're hate for Bioware & EA... yet you still play their games... and will likely continue doing so.

man just stop he wont lision, he wont try,and he sure as hell wont stop so please stop feeding the troll. its not worth your time.

 

[KiraTaureLor]

EA CEO: We Failed Well

Faced with an unwinnable situation, EA says it learned from its failure and changed the game it was playing.

EA boss John Riccitiello thinks failure is an inevitable part of success, and that it's possible to turn failures into victories, as long as you "fail well." Riccitello says that EA realized it was failing four years ago, but was able to starting turning things around by embracing this fact.

Speaking to UC Berkeley's graduating class, Riccitiello said that in 2007 and 2008 EA was in a rather precarious position: development costs were up, game quality was down, and the rise of digital platforms like social networks and smart phones was changing the videogame market forever. Ricitiello said that EA's options were either to "invest and re-tool for radical change," or to continue on its then-current path, and eventually die out altogether.

The company decided to do the former, which led to significant job cuts and studio closures. Riccitiello said that it was a difficult time both for the company and for him personally. "I lost a few friends in the process," he said. "Smart, creative people who just couldn't stomach the transition. Some stopped believing, some left for what they thought were better offers with a quicker profit and payout."

He felt that it had been the right thing to do, however, and EA was strengthened by embracing its past failings. "We were students of our own failure, we used our failure to shape and impel us to a better strategy, one that we believe will ultimately succeed in ways that our previous strategy, even if perfectly executed, could never have done." Riccitello said that the struggle wasn't over though, and that while the company had won a few of its battles over the last four years - and investors were starting to respond to the changes it had made - there was still lots more to do. "I'm not standing in front of shareholders in a flight suit claiming mission accomplished," he said. "The lesson isn't over, [but] we've learned a lot."

Source: Gamasutra [http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/34796/EA_CEO_John_Riccitielln_Learning_From_Failures.php]





Permalink

I am very offended that you put up a pictures of Mirror's Edge to go along with the title. Mirror's edge was one of the very very very few things that EA did right.

 

[Worr Monger]

Long weekend.... back to the shit it seems..

You seem to not be able to understand what I'm trying say so please, read closely. There is a difference between saying you dislike a game and providing arguments to support your reasons for disliking it. My Twilight example was there to show that JUST BECAUSE a certain amount of people like something that does not make it good.

You're contradicting yourself but from your last comment I believe you understand. HOW MANY PEOPLE LIKE SOMETHING does not make that something GOOD. This applies to Mass Effect 2 as well.

How am I contradicting myself? I'm trying to teach you the difference between Fact and Opinion... which clearly you don't understand. And yes, you are correct... Just because a lot of people like something doesn't make it "Factually Good"... BUT you're also forgetting that there are two sides to that... Just because a lot of people hate something... or simply dislike it, doesn't make it bad either. As I said before... I'm sure I can find plenty of people that will bad mouth Twilight at the drop of a hat, yet plenty of other people like it. It's perspective and Opinion.

When have I EVER claimed that if a lot of people hate something that makes it good?

Erm... I don't think you did... I don't think I did either. What's going on?

This is not impossible to find out actually.

Twilight made $392 million at the box office.

The Godfather made $245 million at the box office.

I'm not talking Sales figures... Does that account for inflation? Population Increase? Multiple viewings by insane teenage girls? The increased popularity of anything Vampire-related? Quite frankly, I don't give a damn, not my point.

My point is... Neither movie is by Fact "Good" or "Bad". What can be claimed as Fact, is that both films have a large fanbase.... they also have a lot of people that dislike them.

I don't even like to call this Fact, because I hate doing research (especially for debates like this).....Alright I'll just reference Rottentomatoes.com.... which pretty much shows the average scores for each film based on various reviews. The Godfather hovers around 100% while all the Twilight films hover around 50%. I like to think those numbers mean something... but I'm not gonna start spouting "Facts" like a tool.

Examples:
Fact: "The Godfather is a better film according to Rottentomatoes' scoring system." See? It's there, you can see it... there's no disputing this evidence because it's right there on the website, in number form. But you don't have to like it.. which leads to:

Opinion: "Rottentomatoes has a terrible scoring system, it's not reliable." Ok, why do you think so? What could they do to make it more reliable? The way it works now is:

Fact: "Rottentomatoes' scoring system is based on a consensus of various film reviews and averaging them out." I don't know the specifics to their methods, but if you look at the various reviews below the overall score... it makes sense. Hell you don't have to like the score:

Opinion: Twilight's score should be higher because of "this" and "this" and "whine". That's nice. I think the movie is balls... but to each his own.

We can reasonably conclude that more people went to see Twilight than the Godfather and therefore more people enjoyed it. Therefore Twilight is the better movie, at least by your logic.

What about those poor soulless boyfriends that had to accompany their awful girlfriends to multiple viewings of Twilight? No pity for them? Hell I watched Twilight out of pure scientific curiosity and did not enjoy it. I decided that I thought it was garbage.

.... Know what else I did? I didn't watch the sequels... and never plan to. Twilight and its fanbase can continue to hang out and suck all they want, away from me. I'll just have no part of it.

Either way, I think your hate for Twilight is akin to "hater's gonna hate". It's an amazing film with great character development and an incredible plot that hooks you in from the moment Bella meets Edward to the exciting finale and I'm going to take solace in the fact that when the last film in the saga comes out you'll go see it.

HOLY CRAP!... You just gave your Opinion! Baby steps, I guess... but I'm glad you still have one.

And no.. as I stated above.. I admit to watching the first Twilight. I learned, and will not view any of the sequels.

So does Twilight. It didn't have a bad response with the critics and fans all over the world can't wait to see Breaking Dawn. It's in the exact same spot as Mass Effect 2. Calling it factually bad is just nonsense just like calling Mass Effect 2 factually good for having a large audience and being well received with the critics is nonsense.

Are you trying to turn my own logic against me? I didn't say Twilight was factually bad... I just formed my own opinion and think it stinks... I know a lot of people like it. Good for them.

Nor did I say ME2 was factually good.... I'm the one here not stating opinions as fact.. remember?

That was actually one of the worst storytelling methods I've ever seen. What was the point of killing him? I understand there needed to be a reason for Shepard to join up with Cerberus but being killed in action and suddenly resurrected is just to convenient. Then there's also that tiny case of hate that Shepard expressed for Cerberus during the first game. He seems to eager to work for a corporation that in the first game were presented as batshit insane and incapable of organizing.

Awesome, another opinion. I gave my reasons for liking it in another thread. I'll post them here if you really want me to... but I'd rather not create more clutter. Point is we have differing opinions on the matter.

Of course not. I played through Mass Effect 2 and whilst I did enjoy parts of it I don't consider it a good game. I don't understand why you defend Mass Effect 2 with such vehemence when, from my view at least, it should be enough that you enjoyed it. You have to realize that not everyone will like what you like. I don't like Mass Effect 2. I don't hate it, I dislike it. There's a big difference.

I'm not asking you to understand why I love it. Have your own damn opinion, listen to me or don't. I'm not going to reiterate why I love the game. My main gripe.. and the reason I'm still posting here is because I'm tired of seeing people speak of Bioware and their recent games like they just murdered a bunch of children and are beyond all hope. A lot of people are so matter-of-fact about the "evil" of Bioware, almost overnight.. or how Dragon Age II should be defined as a bad game... and should somehow be the standard of how not to make a game.

I'll admit... I also found Dragon Age II to be disappointing compared to the first.. I don't voice it, because there are enough stupid people doing that already. There were a lot of things I liked about the game. It was a very fun game in its own right... and there are people living and breathing that would actually say it's better than the first.

You're doing the same thing. You will never accept that the game is not good. This is why we will never each a conclusion.

I admitted to that in the same sentence I believe. But I'm not here to convince you to like the games. I saw numerous posts where ME2 (maybe DA2 also? I forget) was being referred to as a bad game by Fact. Most were telling you that it's a matter of opinion and not Fact. That's why I'm here. Dislike ME2/Bioware all you like. Just don't start spouting your opinions as gospel.

The best I can say in terms of debating the games.... I understand your position, I might even agree with some things... I had some gripes about them... I'm not saying they're perfect.... but I think the Pro's generally outweigh the Con's.

We found common ground. You admitted to enjoying some of ME2. Awesome. I'm admitting I found it lacked in some ways as well. There is some progress, that's probably as good as it will get.

Then don't use such phrases. They're basically an attempt at undermining another persons argument whilst ignoring the points they make.

Eventually you hit a brick wall and say "Screw it" I should have bailed out of here long ago.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I will not be purchasing Mass Effect 3. The direction Bioware has been heading in after being bought by Bioware is not something I can say I'm fond of.

Fine, that's good for me. I wish all those other people constantly hating on Bioware would do the same, I really do. I'll hold you to it.

What can I say? I'm a giver. But the REALLY ironic thing is... you're hate for Bioware & EA... yet you still play their games... and will likely continue doing so.

There you go again. This arrogance of yours is just plain vulgar. You talk like you know me as a person and know exactly what I will do with my money because for some reason everyone loves EA even though they say they don't. I don't hate Bioware and I thought I made this clear enough. What I do hate is EA and the direction they've forced Bioware to go in. I hate EA for destroying perfectly decent studios but I do not in any way hate Bioware. In fact, I don't hate EA. I dislike the way they conduct business. Like I've said before, hate is such a strong word to imply dislike that it simply doesn't fit when talking about companies, games or even movies.

I'm not editing out all the times I said "Hate" above all of this... just replace it with the word "dislike".. I'm not using it in any more negative manner... and it's close enough to making my point. I'm trying to keep it simple by lumping "dislikers" and "haters" into the same group... I don't want to have to make clarifications on both parties.

You said above that you will not be purchasing Mass Effect 3. As I said, I'll hold you to it and will admit to being an asshole for assuming you will do otherwise. But also try to understand that me saying that to you, is just a general statement to anyone that dislikes Bioware/EA/whatever and continues to give them money. You say you are not one.. then props to you.

man just stop he wont lision, he wont try,and he sure as hell wont stop so please stop feeding the troll. its not worth your time.

Yeah maybe... sometimes it's just nice to hear myself say it.

 

[Antari]

I'd imagine they always think they are learning from their mistakes. But the shear number of mistakes over time is not learning. Its a sign your just doing things entirely wrong and not learning a thing.

 

[Fursnake]

"Failed well" almost sounds like an oxymoron.