EA has done it
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OH DEAR WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN.Freechoice said:
Did I hurt your feelings by being sarcastic and ruin your precious sensibilities with profanity? Do you have the thinnest skin ever?
"Easy victory"? What the fuck do you think this is? Did you get your knowledge of civilized discussion from the O'Reily Factor?Freechoice said:
I'm here to discuss stuff. That means admitting the truth when you think you're wrong and helping others understand why you think you're right. I'm not here to argue my case like I'm some kind of lawyer ardently defending my honor. That would be retarded. You don't "win" discussions any more than you "win" at doing laundry or reading a book.
Not incorrect.Freechoice said:
Yep.Freechoice said:
Ooh, let me try.Freechoice said:
The rewards cycle in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time begins with instant gratifications. When you start a new character, everything you need to do is close by - finding some rupees; finding mobs to kill. The first few mobs you attack die in several slashes and you find your first sword and shield in about 5 minutes. By the time you find the slingshot half an hour later, you are more aware of the underlying skill points, the accumulation of material, and gain a desire to get better equipment. Gradually, it takes longer and longer to get to the next level. The simple tasks that you did to acquire your tools have become trivial, but the rewards you get - the windows and doors - drive you to perform tasks more elaborate than before because trivial tasks are no longer rewarded. The one-click reward disappears, and is gradually replaced by rewards that take more and more clicks to get. And suddenly, some of us find ourselves clicking away for hours in front of a a horse or that god damn water temple.
The existence of a learning curve does not a Skinner box make.
In fact, I might even argue the opposite. If Everquest's gaming posed an actual challenge, you would probably be playing the game for fun as opposed to simply being shaped by operant conditioning. It's because Everquest is boring and tedious that you really begin to see why people are really playing the game-that is, for a fleeting arbitrary awards system.
To build something in Minecraft takes real ambition and foresight. It's like building with Legos or a jigsaw puzzle, an analogy which you curiously left ignored.
Okay, you still don't quite seem to grasp the difference between Skinner box tactics and normal hobbies and activities.Freechoice said:
There's one very simple concept: Intrinsic motivation. That means doing something for the sake of doing something. You eat because you're hungry. You sleep because you're tired. You play games because it's fun.
It's a Skinner box tactic when it tries to motivate you through other means. You don't want to leave Farmville because your crops will die and that would be a waste. You can't stop playing at the slots because the very next one just might be a winner. When the Escapist does March Mayhem and says one lucky contestant will get free Alienware swag, that's a Skinner box tactic because it's trying to get people who otherwise wouldn't vote.
Minecraft is not a skinner box because the only reason you would play it is if you want to build stuff. This is intrinsic motivation. Without a doubt, it's what you bought the game to do.
And, AGAIN,
A) If you give yourself admin status you can do literally anything so any "risk" involved is only of your own devices.
B) It's absolutely no different from Legos.
C) It's absolutely no different from any other video game out there.
Well, I guess people can view it as their proud of Bioware. Or, they're trying to grab as many votes as they can so they brag even more about Bioware.
Go Valve!
Go Valve!
After releasing the new PGA game that will end up costing almost $150 to play the full career mode (16 courses are on disc, the other 20 are DLC at $4-$7 EACH, when you get to that course in your career it says you need to buy it separately) anything associated with EA needs to go down in flames. Even if it is to Mojang and that crap beta Minecraft (I really don't like it).
I feel the exact opposite way. At least at their recent games, and ones in development.John Marcone said:
My opinion of ME2&DA2&Bioware
I loved Mass Effect 2: Everything about that game was an improvement over Mass Effect 1 (EXCEPT for the planet scanning, which was flat out awful. And you don't get a lot of equipment.)
Loved Dragon Age 2: Better overall with a few flaws. Two examples were half the equipment you got was useless to everyone because they couldn't equip anything. Few unique areas, you return the the same area so many times it's ridiculous.
If theres one flaw I can find with the company is that they release too much DLC... Or at least overcharge.
For example:
Mass Effect campaign lasts about 35 hours if you complete it all.
Arrival DLC campaign lasts about 1-2 hours.
Mass Effect costs: $50.00 at release. Around $20 now.
Arrival DLC costs: $6.50
Do you see how much they overcharge?
Loved Dragon Age 2: Better overall with a few flaws. Two examples were half the equipment you got was useless to everyone because they couldn't equip anything. Few unique areas, you return the the same area so many times it's ridiculous.
If theres one flaw I can find with the company is that they release too much DLC... Or at least overcharge.
For example:
Mass Effect campaign lasts about 35 hours if you complete it all.
Arrival DLC campaign lasts about 1-2 hours.
Mass Effect costs: $50.00 at release. Around $20 now.
Arrival DLC costs: $6.50
Do you see how much they overcharge?
World of Warcraft (Lich King and Cataclysm): I don't know where they are going with this game anymore. So many unbalances between classes (I know its difficult to fix these issues), but to have your class changed every week. Focusing from a casual player-base to a more "hardcore" one in terms of content. To get anywhere you have to pretty much spend every day grinding out repeated quests, and dungeons. Just doesn't feel like a game anymore, more of a chore.
Starcraft 2: No issues with the campaign except they split it into 3 games. The game was a huge disappointment in what you can do online. The AI is the same, gives you 5 minutes then rushes, can almost time it. Custom created games don't have the same appeal as the first one did. Maybe give it time for people to make maps? On top of that you have to log in to play so if you are without internet, you're out of luck.
Diablo 3: (Not released yet) Class Demon Hunter was a disappoint, but other than that classes look solid. A few screenshots showed a change from a more grim look to a slightly brighter one. Looked fine before now it just doesn't feel the same. But we'll see what they do with it.
Starcraft 2: No issues with the campaign except they split it into 3 games. The game was a huge disappointment in what you can do online. The AI is the same, gives you 5 minutes then rushes, can almost time it. Custom created games don't have the same appeal as the first one did. Maybe give it time for people to make maps? On top of that you have to log in to play so if you are without internet, you're out of luck.
Diablo 3: (Not released yet) Class Demon Hunter was a disappoint, but other than that classes look solid. A few screenshots showed a change from a more grim look to a slightly brighter one. Looked fine before now it just doesn't feel the same. But we'll see what they do with it.
I really cannot see how it is in any way like a Skinner box at allFreechoice said:
but i basically agree with you, Mojang are being credited for coming up with half a game as though they're the second coming just because it's a half original concept
The second i saw Mojang AB in the finals. I took away this lists credibility card. C'mon Minecraft is good but theres no way its good enough to earn Mojang a spot in the finals.
Valve deserved to win because, whereas Mojand created an unfinished beta, Valve has created tons of amazing games with great gameplay/stories/characters/writing. I have clocked over 300 hours into TF2 alone. Valve is just the better company. Take Left 4 Dead for example. In the hands of another dev, it would be a standard greyish-brown zombie game with gruff one-dimensional characters (if it would even have characters), a 4-6 hour long campaign, paid DLC, one or two extra modes, and "mature" blood, swearing, and sex. Valve took what could have been that and gave it fleshed out chracters, mind-numbingly fun multiplayer, a reliance on teamwork and coordination, several campaigns lasting around an hour each (if you plow through it, multiplayer campaigns can take HOURS to complete), free dlc in the form of new campaigns, and new game modes that cycle through each week (mutations). take just about any of Valve's games and compare it to Minecraft, Valve will win.Kortney said:
but you aren't the only one confused by how people are voting... a majority of the voters I've seen supporting Mojang sited their reasons as either:
A. they've never played a Valve game
or
B. they want the little guy to win, reguardless of quality
by that logic, Team Meat shouldn't have been knocked out in round 1...
It's like legos in that you put blocks on blocks to make block structures, but the difference is that all the legos are in front of you. You do not have to spend hours upon hours getting a specific type of block by repeatedly clicking on another type of block. A 2x1 red lego is functionally equivalent to a 2x1 blue lego. Iron is not the same as gold and redstone is not sand.TiefBlau said:
Yes, you can turn on admin mode and get whatever block types you want, but you can also go on a private server in WoW with instant leveling and x9001 drop rates. Skinner box evaporates in both cases.
The operant conditioning comes not from building stuff, but from attaining the tools and materials to build stuff. What is inherently fun about hitting the mouse button for what can be hours trying to get a higher grade of material that lets you build more stuff? That's the conditioning.
"Operant conditioning is the use of a behavior's antecedent and/or its consequence to influence the occurrence and form of behavior"
That's the first sentence on operant conditioning on wiki.
Your initial tools are rudimentary, but effective for the most basic tasks and are easy to get. Once you begin exploring, you discover rarer, but more powerful crafting materials that you have to spend a progressively greater amount of time getting. How long would it take to get a diamond pickaxe in comparison to a stone one? Hours upon hours of clicking the mouse to dig through some fuckin' pixelated rock.
As I said, you can essentially get god mode (through illicit means) in WoW and the game suddenly loses a huge chunk of content. Let's remove both of those instances. Many people would still play Minecraft. They like the progressive challenge of getting something through the repetition of an action; in this case, it's clicking a mouse. What is inherently fun about clicking a mouse? People click mice for a living. The difference between someone playing Counterstrike and a guy working MS Access is that the CS player is having immediate gratification. You click the mouse to shoot something and are immediately rewarded with a kill if you do it right. The difficulty curve is set by the players, not the game. Minecraft presents difficulty solely through gameplay mechanics. You want a watch? Spend a few hours digging halfway to sea level and hope you get a vein. Also, you need an iron pickaxe or better to harvest it. Then you have to get some redstone.
I would venture a guess that more people play outside of creative mode or without the administrative privilege of spawning infinite blocks. Blizzard keeps drop rates low and level gaps high. That's how they keep people in the game and possibly making external transactions. If all you could do was spawn infinite blocks, how would Mojang keep people interested in the game and the various paraphernalia [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/108896-Mojang-Crushes-Valve-Opens-The-Minecraft-Store] offered?
You can go into Minecraft just to build, but if you are not interested in creative mode or have no idea how to access admin mode, you're in a skinner box.
Wow, where did that come from XD. The guy just said he doesn't think HALO is all that great, whats the big touchy subject here?Sober Thal said:
No, you're really not.Freechoice said:
WoW is all about progressing along a clearly defined path, and the further along you go, the slower it gets, like most other MMOs. 1-10 will zip by. 11-20 will be slower and so on.
Minecraft has no path other than what you decide. The game does not force you to mine 10 gold, then 20 gold, then 50 gold, then 10 diamonds etc. In fact it's probably as far removed from progression driven gaming as you can get. Yeah, you can do that. Alternatively you can explore endlessly, build with common, readily available materials, or just make a bow and go hunt creepers.
Extra Credits is a great series, but people really need to stop throwing around concepts they've picked up from it without knowing what those concepts actually mean.
Fanboys and anti-fanboys make the internet go round.Vampire cat said:
Citing one characteristic does not make the larger part of it go away. Do most people do just the things you listed? I doubt that. Most of the videos I have seen of Minecraft show people digging underground and volcano doom fortresses with garden rooftops.Sixcess said:
Why do you think it's called Minecraft?
