EA is not evil.

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
5,178
0
0
Rooster Cogburn said:
TECHNICALLY SPEAKING even those rules are not objective in the strictest sense. But they are the next-best thing. You can write very valid and useful rules about how to make a story good. But even with universal acclaim and undeniable merit, the concept of "good" remains a subjective idea.
That's true. However, there's thousands of years of literary advancement behind those rules and while you can violate them and still have a "good" story, it's not a good idea to do so.

You'd need to be an author on par with Tolkien or Twain to blatantly violate the established "rules" and still come out with a good story.
 

Rooster Cogburn

New member
May 24, 2008
1,637
0
0
Agayek said:
Rooster Cogburn said:
TECHNICALLY SPEAKING even those rules are not objective in the strictest sense. But they are the next-best thing. You can write very valid and useful rules about how to make a story good. But even with universal acclaim and undeniable merit, the concept of "good" remains a subjective idea.
That's true. However, there's thousands of years of literary advancement behind those rules and while you can violate them and still have a "good" story, it's not a good idea to do so.

You'd need to be an author on par with Tolkien or Twain to blatantly violate the established "rules" and still come out with a good story.
That I do agree with. A car with square wheels isn't OBJECTIVELY bad. But if you're going to make one that way, you had better have a damned good justification lol.

EDIT: Also, even if it was impossible to break the rules and still end up with something good, the rules still wouldn't be objective. The sticking point here is the concept of "good". Anything that attempts to describe "good" will be subjective, even if it's always right, no matter how authoritative it is.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
5,178
0
0
Frostbite3789 said:
And I loved ME3, which according to the community here evidently makes me some kind of backwards hillbilly, but y'know.
I did too. ME3 does just about everything right, right up until the Catalyst shows its retard face. If they'd only realized just how stupid that whole segment was and removed it, I would hold ME3 up as one of the best games of all time.

As for the rest of your point, I'm trying to stay away from "opinion" entirely when comparing the two games. As I said, when comparing the two using purely (or as close as can be) objective standards for the various aspects, ME1 comes out ahead everywhere but the gameplay mechanics, which are much refined in ME2.
 
Nov 28, 2007
10,686
0
0
Agayek said:
Rooster Cogburn said:
TECHNICALLY SPEAKING even those rules are not objective in the strictest sense. But they are the next-best thing. You can write very valid and useful rules about how to make a story good. But even with universal acclaim and undeniable merit, the concept of "good" remains a subjective idea.
That's true. However, there's thousands of years of literary advancement behind those rules and while you can violate them and still have a "good" story, it's not a good idea to do so.

You'd need to be an author on par with Tolkien or Twain to blatantly violate the established "rules" and still come out with a good story.
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the story of Knights of the Old Republic 2? The reason I ask is because the game's story revolves a lot around tearing down the mythos and story elements of the Star Wars universe, which was founded on the principle of "the Hero's Journey". I, personally, love seeing it deconstructed, but is it actually breaking away from it, or is it following the journey, but from a different path?
 

ecoho

New member
Jun 16, 2010
2,093
0
0
they arnt evil, but they tend to be idiots when it comes to knowing what people want. Now dont get me wrong i still buy and enjoy EA games (loved both the ending to mass effect 3 and the entirety of DA 2) but the changeing of the overstrike,now fuse, art style/astedics, and the announcement of no longer focusing on single player just come accross as idiotic.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
5,178
0
0
thebobmaster said:
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the story of Knights of the Old Republic 2? The reason I ask is because the game's story revolves a lot around tearing down the mythos and story elements of the Star Wars universe, which was founded on the principle of "the Hero's Journey". I, personally, love seeing it deconstructed, but is it actually breaking away from it, or is it following the journey, but from a different path?
I don't actually know, to be honest. It's my primary gaming shame that I simply can't get past the opening segment of KOTOR 2. The whole mining platform thing just bores me to tears. I've tried to play it at least 3 separate times, get probably about 3/4 of the way through the mining station before I just can't take anymore and give up.

From what I've heard about it, I'd probably be fairly interested in it if I could find a novelization of it or something, but I just can't play through it.
 
Nov 28, 2007
10,686
0
0
ecoho said:
they arnt evil, but they tend to be idiots when it comes to knowing what people want. Now dont get me wrong i still buy and enjoy EA games (loved both the ending to mass effect 3 and the entirety of DA 2) but the changeing of the overstrike,now fuse, art style/astedics, and the announcement of no longer focusing on single player just come accross as idiotic.
I agree with that. Their PR department really needs to get a makeover, with people who actually know how to give public speeches. Then again, at this point, wouldn't make any difference. Damage is done, and any attempt to fix it would result in words being twisted.
 

Dangit2019

New member
Aug 8, 2011
2,449
0
0
Frostbite3789 said:
Dangit2019 said:
and Online Passes.
The fact that you mention Origin then Online Passes next to each other is funny to me. Your dislike of Origin means you play PC games, but then you turn and say you hate online passes.

Do you hate CD keys? Do you hate that Steam assigns every game you use a CD key and that it's instantly tied to your account?

As a PC and console gamer, I always laugh at people who ***** and whine about online passes. It just doesn't add up at all in my mind. Oh no, you're locked out of some content for awhile unless you type in a few digits. Boo hoo. I'm locked out of an entire game until I do that on the PC.

Man up a little.
When did I say that CD keys weren't bullshit? I was only saying that I disliked EA, I never said anything in favor of Valve's practices. You put me on their team when there was absolutely no evidence in my post leading toward that.

Wait a second, you think people are mad about online passes because it's a minor inconvenience to those who have the pass? People are mad at them because they like to buy games used without getting screwed over into paying an extra $15 for the complete content, not because they have to fumble through the Xbox keyboard.

thebobmaster said:
And you've just discovered double standards. See, it's all right if it happens on PCs, you're used to that. But consoles deserve more freedom, dang it! I bought the game, I should have full access without having to buy it new!
Where's the fucking double standard in my post? I only said that Online Passes were bullshit, I never said that CD passes weren't.

Both of you guys are being presumptuous, BUT NOT BEYOND BELIEF.
 

BytByte

New member
Nov 26, 2009
425
0
0
Rock-EA-Hard Place. I feel like they actually go in cycles for innovations, but either way, they are in a "too big to fail" position, which is causing them to milk as much as they can. Boom Blox was good though.
 
Nov 28, 2007
10,686
0
0
Dangit2019 said:
Frostbite3789 said:
Dangit2019 said:
and Online Passes.
The fact that you mention Origin then Online Passes next to each other is funny to me. Your dislike of Origin means you play PC games, but then you turn and say you hate online passes.

Do you hate CD keys? Do you hate that Steam assigns every game you use a CD key and that it's instantly tied to your account?

As a PC and console gamer, I always laugh at people who ***** and whine about online passes. It just doesn't add up at all in my mind. Oh no, you're locked out of some content for awhile unless you type in a few digits. Boo hoo. I'm locked out of an entire game until I do that on the PC.

Man up a little.
When did I say that CD keys weren't bullshit? I was only saying that I disliked EA, I never said anything in favor of Valve's practices. You put me on their team when there was absolutely no evidence in my post leading toward that.

Wait a second, you think people are mad about online passes because it's a minor inconvenience to those who have the pass? People are mad at them because they like to buy games used without getting screwed over into paying an extra $15 for the complete content, not because they have to fumble through the Xbox keyboard.

thebobmaster said:
And you've just discovered double standards. See, it's all right if it happens on PCs, you're used to that. But consoles deserve more freedom, dang it! I bought the game, I should have full access without having to buy it new!
Where's the fucking double standard in my post? I only said that Online Passes were bullshit, I never said that CD passes weren't.

Both of you guys are being presumptuous beyond belief...
I didn't mean you, specifically, and I apologize for presuming. But by and large, people who are against the online passes, claiming it is violating our rights as gamers to have access to the whole game, don't have an issue with CD keys, because either they don't play on a PC, or assume that CD keys are just a fact of gaming life.

Again, I apologize for presuming you fell into that camp, and I agree that I was being quite presumptuous. I don't know about "beyond belief", though.
 

Berithil

Maintenence Man of the Universe
Mar 19, 2009
1,600
0
0
I dislike them mainly because of pandemic (LOTR Conquest had such potential!!!). But I don't hate them. They are a business, and therefore need to make money. And yes, some of the people who run it are jerks, but they hardly count for the entire company.

No, EA is not evil, but they're not my favorite game publisher.
 

Dangit2019

New member
Aug 8, 2011
2,449
0
0
thebobmaster said:
Again, I apologize for presuming you fell into that camp, and I agree that I was being quite presumptuous. I don't know about "beyond belief", though.
Apology accepted, and I fixed the original response.
 

Xanadu84

New member
Apr 9, 2008
2,946
0
0
"Evil" is hyperbole to make a point. What they are is a shitty company that holds the industry back. Maybe they arn't evil, because "As terrible as they can be in the realm of entertainment" can not quite reach actual, "Evil" status.

The common thread in devils advocate positions for EA is that they are a company, and they need to make money. This argument does not hold up for 2 reason The obvious one is that you can be terrible as a company and still squeeze money out of people. But that's not the major reason. EA is shitty because it is BAD at making money. When they put out a heavy handed DRM scam to stop piracy, they increase piracy and inconvienience customers AND LOSE MONEY. They lose a little from that game, and they lose a lot more down the road from lack of trust. Inconvenient monetization scams may have the intent of making more money, but if it is handled poorly, it will lose the company money in the long run. When a game has a way of making money besides the initial sale, there needs to be a sense of fairness. That way, people feel like engaging in the game, and have a motivation to spend more money. If it feels like a rip off, people don't buy it, and don't buy the base game in the first place, which is money down the drain. When you jam a heavy handed marketing ploy down our throats, the consumers resent it, and you waste advertising dollars. And when you fail to innovate, and get pidgeonholed into a small number of genres, there is less excitement about buying a large number of games. Which loses money. What EA does does not support a sustainable business on there end. It is short sighted in the extreme. So thats why EA is terrible, in a way that even a cold blooded economist would have to agree with: They are bad at making money.

Of course, if my theory were right, we would be seeing EA having serious problems, with rapidly dropping stock prices. Oh wait.
 

Artemicion

Need superslick, Kupo.
Dec 7, 2009
527
0
0
The Ultima series comes to mind. Bioware comes to mind. DICE? Visceral? You don't need to dig far to find EA's skeletons. Don't ignore good reasons just because they're common ones.
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
14,334
0
0
thebobmaster said:
First point: EA, as a corporation, needs to make money. Why? They are a publicly owned company, with shareholders. If they start losing a lot of money, shareholders will abandon the company, resulting in layoffs.
Yes that is true, but that only goes so far. That doesn't excuse butt-fucking your consumer base, the very people they depend on to make money, and making other gob-smackingly stupid decisions. It's just fortunate for them that their consumer base consists mostly of morons who, no matter how many times they get kicked in the balls, will keep coming back and begging for more. *Note: That last part wasn't directed specifically at you OP, please don't take it personally.
The long and short of it is when they start screwing over the very customers they depend on to make money that's when the justification that they're a corporation out to make money kinda falls apart and their Executive Management start to seem less like businessmen and more like James Bond villains.
 

Texas Joker 52

All hail the Pun Meister!
Jun 25, 2011
1,285
0
0
[DISCLAIMER]: Take this post with a grain of salt, since I'm not stating ANYTHING as absolute fact and am simply speaking from a position which, really, does not have all the information. I just feel that I may be able to point out something that could be valuable insight. Though it may not be. Its really 50/50.

From what I've seen, no, EA isn't evil. However, they do tend to have somewhat backwards business practices. Here's my list of backwards, flawed, or just outright wrong business practices that I have noticed from just various articles, here on my favorite gaming site, The Escapist. Speaking of, oh look, here we are on The Escapist! Fancy that.

1A):
Code:
They will no longer be releasing any purely single-player games. All games will now have a multi-player or online component.
This is something I simply cannot understand. For one, it is purely a cash-grab, which EA is unfortunately well-known for as it is, but it can potentially take away development time from what can be a quality single-player game. At best, they may have something akin to Mass Effect 3's multi-player mode, which works and can be fun, but has some minor, fundamental flaws.

At worst, they can have something that potentially breaks the game itself, or detracts so much from the core game that it overshadows the good qualities it has. The worst-case is more likely when the online component is obviously shoehorned in. Please, don't shoehorn online bits into good single-player games.

1B):
Code:
As an extension of 1A, EA also has the policy of requiring any games that have any kind of online component as of late, to have an online pass. One that you need to pay for, had you bought it used.
Ok, since I'm going to assume (Falsely, since I know a lot of people hate EA, but for the sake of the point I'm about to make.) that we all agree that EA isn't evil, used sales most definitely aren't either. They aren't the devil, and online passes seems to either be EA's way of combating it, simply making more cheap money, or both.

But, regardless if you're paying for new or used, you are buying the game. You should be able to play the whole damn thing that's on the disc. Coincidentally, this is also the argument against on-disc DLC, which is another matter entirely. Still, you should not be punished for either being frugal or poor.

2):
Code:
EA has the unfortunate tendency to have extreme and irrational expectations for games once released, such as sales figures.
Dead Space 3 is the poor recipient of this one. For the franchise to survive, it needs to sell 5 million copies. Unrealistic, extreme, and quite frankly, hearing that will turn off fans that would otherwise buy it, if not for another issue that EA seems to be pushing on it that will be addressed in 3.

From what I can remember, 5 million copies is more than what the original and Dead Space 2 sold, combined. For the sequel to surpass both combined in terms of sales, would frankly require a miracle. And I'm pretty sure EA knows this. Not evil, but certainly suspicious.

3):
Code:
My final point, for the moment I happen to be writing this at least, is that EA seems to be homogenizing its titles to 'appeal to larger audiences'.
Now, I'm not against them making a game appeal to more people, to an extent. However, that does not mean changing the games core formula in any way that is not explicitly meant to be an improvement over something that was wrong in a previous title. Obviously, new IPs are exempt from this one.

Once again, Dead Space 3 is the victim, which seems to have moved so far from the established formula as to be almost unrecognizable, if it weren't for the iconic aesthetic. When a series establishes a formula, it is more often than not better to keep to it than change it on a whim.

As an example of a sequel that moved away from formula as a way to improve would be Resident Evil 4. And even then, fans got pissed. That isn't to say that only new IPs should be the ones to try and innovate, but if a sequel is meant to innovate, it should be to complement the formula, not change it radically.

Otherwise, I find that its best to use a sequel to further the plot, refine the gameplay, and give fans of the original more of what they liked, with enough differences to make it new.

Overall, I'd say that, though certainly not evil, EA tends to shaft themselves, their developers, and more often than either, their customers. If they want to make great gobs of cash and be more successful than they are now, they should listen a little more to customers, be more realistic in their expectations, be more lenient towards their developers in both taking more risks and keeping franchises alive, and pretty much use more common sense.
 

Weaver

Overcaffeinated
Apr 28, 2008
8,977
0
0
Remember that time in 2004 when EA was sued after the EA spouse incident? And they settled out of court for $15.6 million? Because one of the arguments was, with the wages paid, the workers were essentially paid slaves wages?

Good times. Totally a hallmark of an on the level, not evil company. But so long as they're a company, they need to make money right? Who cares if they don't pay their employees enough, or force them to work 110 hour weeks for months on end; it's just business. Apparently, that justified any and all actions on a moral level.

Why, we should just let the diamond trade in Africa go on as it is! Those mine owners are just out to make money for their companies.
 

aguspal

New member
Aug 19, 2012
743
0
0
I dont know why so much people hate EA man. They are at times a bit annoying and jerkass, maybe, but they make games that are considerated as very good (even thougt I myself dont like most of them), so let them be. And so far, it hasnt "killed" (not really, you are right) any company that I care of (-especially Bioware- ok that was harsh, but I couldt resist. After I tried Dragon Age I just hate them!), so whatever... Well except maybe Westwood. Those Command and Conquer where good games of my childhood... but thats the past. As of now I dont think I would really enjoy them that much, sadly.