Early screening of Justice League deem it 'unwatchable'

Cicada 5

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Captain Marvelous said:
Apparently the cut that was unwatchable was Snyder's, before the Whedon reshoots.
http://screenrant.com/rumor-justice-league-unwatchable-reshoots-zack-snyder-joss-whedon/
I can't say I'm surprised.

I can understand why Cyborg is an issue. In the trailers he seems much more machine then he does man. Very lifeless and boring.
has anyone noticed that when it comes to Warner Bros. and specifically the section involved in the production of DC movies, everyone and their uncles have anonymous sources inside the studios, while on the other hand such sources are almost as rare as chicken teeth when it comes to Disney, Fox, Sony, etc.?

It always seemed a little weird to me, too.

And Cyborg's always been more machine than man.
 

Cicada 5

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Natemans said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Silentpony said:
Samtemdo8 said:
I thought there was already Massive Reshoots going on when Joss Wheadon stepped in?

I also heard the movie will be 3 hours long.
This is apparently after the reshoots. Its still unwatchable
What makes them think it won't be even more unwatchable with thier interference? After what happened to Suicide Squad?

So Pacing Issues, even with all the reshoots and changes this movie has to introduce Aquaman, The Flash, Cyborg, The New God Steppenwolf's invasion of the world, and Superman's Return and than some. I think you need 4 hours to tell this story.

Dark Tone, I prefer a Dark Tone because I am not a little kid anymore and because I read Vertigo Comics and Watchmen. And most definitively do not want another Marvel esque tone, and Joss Wheadon's involvement is not doing any favors. And its baffling because WB wanted their DC movies to be dark like the Nolan Batman movies, everything about Man of Steel is made to be like Batman Begins, now they are saying they don't want a Dark tone because Money.

Cyborg, I guess its because from the trailers he's not the "BOOYAH" shouting teen and more like his New 52 personality. (As far as I read of him in the first Justice League issue)
Look, here's the thing: you can have dark while giving some levity or feel of fun to give some weight. That's why the Nolan films, MCU and Wonder Woman work well. Minor note: they said that the film was 60% done when Zack was on board and the early cut was called that unwatchable. So now is when they do reshoots.

Yeah, I'm genuinely surprised they found this unwatchable yet they made a production mess of Suicide Squad and that dumpster fire BvS passable, but this made them cross the line. I'm cool with Joss Whedon coming to help with the film since I love his work as he does a great job with character building, solid dialogue and team-ups. However, I don't think he can salvage this.

Okay, not being insensitive, but you don't need to address Steppenwolf as just the New God. You can just refer to him as just Steppenwolf. Not being a dick. Just offering a suggestion and not being mean.

See, there's a major problem with the DCEU since Man of Steel: I kinda feel like they don't know who their films are aimed at (well, except WW). Nolan's Dark Knight films weren't good because of a dark tone; they were good because of this thing called a good script, solid direction or a clear understanding of the characters. Dude, being grown up doesn't always have to mean you can appreciate dark and hate goofy stuff. Hell, like I said, you can have a nice balance of serious and lighthearted moments. Hell, Tom Baker said it best, "You can't be grown up without being childish sometimes."

Well, to be fair, Cyborg did start out as a dark, serious character from the comics. Plus the original Teen Titans cartoon did focus on some dark parts of the character despite doing the goofy stuff. Goofy isn't bad for anything; its how you utilize or execute it. Though based on the trailers, I'm not impressed sadly. Mainly because I find not much to his character from what I'm seeing and I know they got until November to finish it, but the CGI is really bad on him. Plus yeah, I found New 52 Cyborg really boring.
The DC movies are more dark in aesthetic rather than content. In regards to the latter, they're no more dark than any other superhero adaptation in the last decade or so. The MCU rather just ignores the implications of their universe until it is convenient and even when they do it's swept aside for soap operic BS like the destruction of Steve and Tony's non-existent friendship.
 

Natemans

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Agent_Z said:
Natemans said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Silentpony said:
Samtemdo8 said:
I thought there was already Massive Reshoots going on when Joss Wheadon stepped in?

I also heard the movie will be 3 hours long.
This is apparently after the reshoots. Its still unwatchable
What makes them think it won't be even more unwatchable with thier interference? After what happened to Suicide Squad?

So Pacing Issues, even with all the reshoots and changes this movie has to introduce Aquaman, The Flash, Cyborg, The New God Steppenwolf's invasion of the world, and Superman's Return and than some. I think you need 4 hours to tell this story.

Dark Tone, I prefer a Dark Tone because I am not a little kid anymore and because I read Vertigo Comics and Watchmen. And most definitively do not want another Marvel esque tone, and Joss Wheadon's involvement is not doing any favors. And its baffling because WB wanted their DC movies to be dark like the Nolan Batman movies, everything about Man of Steel is made to be like Batman Begins, now they are saying they don't want a Dark tone because Money.

Cyborg, I guess its because from the trailers he's not the "BOOYAH" shouting teen and more like his New 52 personality. (As far as I read of him in the first Justice League issue)
Look, here's the thing: you can have dark while giving some levity or feel of fun to give some weight. That's why the Nolan films, MCU and Wonder Woman work well. Minor note: they said that the film was 60% done when Zack was on board and the early cut was called that unwatchable. So now is when they do reshoots.

Yeah, I'm genuinely surprised they found this unwatchable yet they made a production mess of Suicide Squad and that dumpster fire BvS passable, but this made them cross the line. I'm cool with Joss Whedon coming to help with the film since I love his work as he does a great job with character building, solid dialogue and team-ups. However, I don't think he can salvage this.

Okay, not being insensitive, but you don't need to address Steppenwolf as just the New God. You can just refer to him as just Steppenwolf. Not being a dick. Just offering a suggestion and not being mean.

See, there's a major problem with the DCEU since Man of Steel: I kinda feel like they don't know who their films are aimed at (well, except WW). Nolan's Dark Knight films weren't good because of a dark tone; they were good because of this thing called a good script, solid direction or a clear understanding of the characters. Dude, being grown up doesn't always have to mean you can appreciate dark and hate goofy stuff. Hell, like I said, you can have a nice balance of serious and lighthearted moments. Hell, Tom Baker said it best, "You can't be grown up without being childish sometimes."

Well, to be fair, Cyborg did start out as a dark, serious character from the comics. Plus the original Teen Titans cartoon did focus on some dark parts of the character despite doing the goofy stuff. Goofy isn't bad for anything; its how you utilize or execute it. Though based on the trailers, I'm not impressed sadly. Mainly because I find not much to his character from what I'm seeing and I know they got until November to finish it, but the CGI is really bad on him. Plus yeah, I found New 52 Cyborg really boring.
The DC movies are more dark in aesthetic rather than content. In regards to the latter, they're no more dark than any other superhero adaptation in the last decade or so. The MCU rather just ignores the implications of their universe until it is convenient and even when they do it's swept aside for soap operic BS like the destruction of Steve and Tony's non-existent friendship.
But the DCEU films have mostly been dark in aesthetic and content. The only exceptions being Suicide Squad and WW. The MCU doesn't really and utilizes it well plus they did a really well-handled job of Steve and Tony's friendship.
 

Bob_McMillan

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Agent_Z said:
Captain Marvelous said:
Apparently the cut that was unwatchable was Snyder's, before the Whedon reshoots.
http://screenrant.com/rumor-justice-league-unwatchable-reshoots-zack-snyder-joss-whedon/
I can't say I'm surprised.

I can understand why Cyborg is an issue. In the trailers he seems much more machine then he does man. Very lifeless and boring.
has anyone noticed that when it comes to Warner Bros. and specifically the section involved in the production of DC movies, everyone and their uncles have anonymous sources inside the studios, while on the other hand such sources are almost as rare as chicken teeth when it comes to Disney, Fox, Sony, etc.?

It always seemed a little weird to me, too.

Not really. I follow movie news through a podcast and it never seems like DC has more leaks or anonymous sources than other studios. Just recently we've been hearing a lot of bad stuff about The Solo Han Solo movie, and previously before that we also heard the same things about Rogue One. Fox if anything has the most rumours, and a lot of them end up being true.

It just so happens that the DCEU rumors are almost always negative and therefore get more press.

And Cyborg's always been more machine than man.
That is just wrong. That is literally the opposite of his entire character. His human components being more than his computer bits was the focus of an entire episode of Teen Titans. It is the one thing that makes him even remotely compelling.

Even his New 52 comics, which are shiiiiittttttt, the theme of still being human is constant.
 

laggyteabag

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I wonder what will happen if Justice League turns out to be another critical failure.

Reboot it again after a few years, ie, Sony's Spider-Man and Amazing Spider-Man, or just stick with it and carry on with a critically panned franchise, that is at least commercially successful?

To be fair, I think everyone and their mum knows that this film is going to turn out like trash, but I am really interested to see just how bad it really is.
 

Basement Cat

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Wonder Woman was condemned as a "Mess" due to late reshoots, etc, but then it went on to massive success both in the states and worldwide. Heck, I may be going to see it tomorrow.

I don't get the Joss Whedon hate. One thing WW taught Warner Bros was that "lighter" films than Snyder's were better received by a broader audience.

The unwatchable wreck that was Snyder's original version sounds pretty bad--too much being shoe horned into one movie. Cutting back and lightening things up should help.

And given that this is a Snyder movie "lightening things up" could simply mean stopping it from being an Emo "Life is pain--slash your wrists" flick. That doesn't directly mean Joss is turning it into "My Little Pony". :D
 

maninahat

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Basement Cat said:
Wonder Woman was condemned as a "Mess" due to late reshoots, etc, but then it went on to massive success both in the states and worldwide. Heck, I may be going to see it tomorrow.

I don't get the Joss Whedon hate. One thing WW taught Warner Bros was that "lighter" films than Snyder's were better received by a broader audience.

The unwatchable wreck that was Snyder's original version sounds pretty bad--too much being shoe horned into one movie. Cutting back and lightening things up should help.

And given that this is a Snyder movie "lightening things up" could simply mean stopping it from being an Emo "Life is pain--slash your wrists" flick. That doesn't directly mean Joss is turning it into "My Little Pony". :D
Joss Whedon would make it worse still. His entire oeuvre is about taking something gritty and "realistic" and then slapping a ton of cheese all over it. He's the reason every Marvel comic book movie now has to be full of smart ass quipping, and if his Wonder Woman spec script is anything to go by, he'd do the exact same for DC.

For better or for worse, DC movies have chosen to be far more self-serious in tone, and whilst that looks terrible in movies like BvS, it's also part of the reason Wonder Woman was so good - no one else is making sincere, straight faced superheroes anymore, especially now that X-men has finally dried up. I don't want DC to start trying to be the next Guardians of the Galaxy or Jonathan Strange.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Basement Cat said:
I don't get the Joss Whedon hate. One thing WW taught Warner Bros was that "lighter" films than Snyder's were better received by a broader audience. / And given that this is a Snyder movie "lightening things up" could simply mean stopping it from being an Emo "Life is pain--slash your wrists" flick. That doesn't directly mean Joss is turning it into "My Little Pony". :D
Snyder makes grimdark films for angsty teenage boys - or angsty teenage boys trapped in men's bodies... Joss does not.

So any project one hands off to the other is in for a hard transition. I'd absolutely dread for a Whedon project to be tampered with by Snyder.

Did WB ask Joss to step in, or was it Snyder? Either way, it seems like they're throwing Joss under the bus if the original cut's as bad as is rumoured. If Zack asked him personally after what happened, I'd understand why he agreed to it. But if it was the WB and he didn't know about the family tragedy, then Joss was a fool to agree to it. I can only see this becoming a black mark on his career.

Laggyteabag said:
I wonder what will happen if Justice League turns out to be another critical failure.
Does it matter as long as it's a commercial success? Critical opinion is just fake news, after all... Moviegoers surely shouldn't burden themselves with trifling issues over whether a film might be good or not.

maninahat said:
Joss Whedon would make it worse still. His entire oeuvre is about taking something gritty and "realistic" and then slapping a ton of cheese all over it. He's the reason every Marvel comic book movie now has to be full of smart ass quipping, and if his Wonder Woman spec script is anything to go by, he'd do the exact same for DC.
Er, no. Favreau's Iron Man and RDJ set the tone for the MCU - not Joss Whedon.

Two Iron Man's, a Thor, and a [brilliantly] pulpy Captain America helped solidify precisely what the MCU was about. And after The Avengers we had The Winter Soldier, whose tone was markedly darker and more serious than The Avengers or anything before it. Ditto Civil War.

...and no, his entire oeuvre isn't that at all - or it is if you're not familiar with his full body of work, or you somehow count any ounce of humanity and humour as evidence of "cheese".
 

hermes

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Can't judge the earlier edits without seeing them, but getting the suits involved is the worst thing they can do. It was what ruined most WB/DC movies since Superman 3. Batman & Robin? Suits fault. Suicide Squad? Suits fault. Dark Knight Rises? Suits fault. In fact, one good reason why Batman Begins and is a good movie and a single unified vision is because they gave Nolan the character and just leave him alone.

Not that the movie could would not be unwatchable before, but if they are reshooting on orders from the suits, I can guarantee the end result will be unwatchable.
 

hermes

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Laggyteabag said:
I wonder what will happen if Justice League turns out to be another critical failure.
Does it matter as long as it's a commercial success? Critical opinion is just fake news, after all... Moviegoers surely shouldn't burden themselves with trifling issues over whether a film might be good or not.
As a Moviegoer, I would much rather spend time watching a good film than a bad one. In fact, I am not a DCEU producer, so I won't burden myself with trifling issues like whether a movie is successful or not (in fact, that is an easy question given the subject; even Batman & Robin made a profit)... except to get angry that bad successful movies means more bad movies are on their way.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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hermes said:
As a Moviegoer, I would much rather spend time watching a good film than a bad one. In fact, I am not a DCEU producer, so I won't burden myself with trifling issues like whether a movie is successful or not (in fact, that is an easy question given the subject; even Batman & Robin made a profit)... except to get angry that bad successful movies means more bad movies are on their way.
So 'good film = more good films', and bad = more bad? That's not exactly a hard and fast rule. Commercial success surely guarantees a property can either continue, or will have an impact in terms of other studios chasing similar styles or flavours of properties. A film that's perceived to be good but doesn't do well commercially has a very hard time impacting anything (it'll be interesting to see precisely what kind of a legacy Logan will leave, given it was certainly a commercial success relative to its budget and rating).

My point was obviously that, increasingly, it seems some studios are becoming actively resentful of critics and YT'ers having the cheek to form opinions and try to warn punters away from bad films. Quality evidently isn't their watchword.

And this isn't just any ol' studio or IP. BvS and Suicide Squad betrayed an ill thought out, poorly marketed, and indecisive shared universe[footnote]I'd say it was doomed from the start, given it's clear Zack Snyder has a surface level - at best - understanding of superheroes and comicbook mythos. Also I genuinely believe he might be a bit dimwitted... going from some of the facepalm inducing things he's said in interviews to try to justify MoS and BvS.[/footnote]. It seems WB don't really give a shit about critique or sensible world building. So if Justice League is a clusterfuck yet does well commercially, my point is that WB won't really give a toss. They'll barrel ahead as they've been doing thus far.
 

Cicada 5

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Natemans said:
Agent_Z said:
Natemans said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Silentpony said:
Samtemdo8 said:
I thought there was already Massive Reshoots going on when Joss Wheadon stepped in?

I also heard the movie will be 3 hours long.
This is apparently after the reshoots. Its still unwatchable
What makes them think it won't be even more unwatchable with thier interference? After what happened to Suicide Squad?

So Pacing Issues, even with all the reshoots and changes this movie has to introduce Aquaman, The Flash, Cyborg, The New God Steppenwolf's invasion of the world, and Superman's Return and than some. I think you need 4 hours to tell this story.

Dark Tone, I prefer a Dark Tone because I am not a little kid anymore and because I read Vertigo Comics and Watchmen. And most definitively do not want another Marvel esque tone, and Joss Wheadon's involvement is not doing any favors. And its baffling because WB wanted their DC movies to be dark like the Nolan Batman movies, everything about Man of Steel is made to be like Batman Begins, now they are saying they don't want a Dark tone because Money.

Cyborg, I guess its because from the trailers he's not the "BOOYAH" shouting teen and more like his New 52 personality. (As far as I read of him in the first Justice League issue)
Look, here's the thing: you can have dark while giving some levity or feel of fun to give some weight. That's why the Nolan films, MCU and Wonder Woman work well. Minor note: they said that the film was 60% done when Zack was on board and the early cut was called that unwatchable. So now is when they do reshoots.

Yeah, I'm genuinely surprised they found this unwatchable yet they made a production mess of Suicide Squad and that dumpster fire BvS passable, but this made them cross the line. I'm cool with Joss Whedon coming to help with the film since I love his work as he does a great job with character building, solid dialogue and team-ups. However, I don't think he can salvage this.

Okay, not being insensitive, but you don't need to address Steppenwolf as just the New God. You can just refer to him as just Steppenwolf. Not being a dick. Just offering a suggestion and not being mean.

See, there's a major problem with the DCEU since Man of Steel: I kinda feel like they don't know who their films are aimed at (well, except WW). Nolan's Dark Knight films weren't good because of a dark tone; they were good because of this thing called a good script, solid direction or a clear understanding of the characters. Dude, being grown up doesn't always have to mean you can appreciate dark and hate goofy stuff. Hell, like I said, you can have a nice balance of serious and lighthearted moments. Hell, Tom Baker said it best, "You can't be grown up without being childish sometimes."

Well, to be fair, Cyborg did start out as a dark, serious character from the comics. Plus the original Teen Titans cartoon did focus on some dark parts of the character despite doing the goofy stuff. Goofy isn't bad for anything; its how you utilize or execute it. Though based on the trailers, I'm not impressed sadly. Mainly because I find not much to his character from what I'm seeing and I know they got until November to finish it, but the CGI is really bad on him. Plus yeah, I found New 52 Cyborg really boring.
The DC movies are more dark in aesthetic rather than content. In regards to the latter, they're no more dark than any other superhero adaptation in the last decade or so. The MCU rather just ignores the implications of their universe until it is convenient and even when they do it's swept aside for soap operic BS like the destruction of Steve and Tony's non-existent friendship.
But the DCEU films have mostly been dark in aesthetic and content. The only exceptions being Suicide Squad and WW. The MCU doesn't really and utilizes it well plus they did a really well-handled job of Steve and Tony's friendship.
We've had four DCEU movies thus far. Two were light-hearted (well as light hearted as a movie about WW1 and a team of criminals being blackmailed into carrying out clandestine missions for the U.S government can be) and two skewed darker but no moreso than any other superhero film released in the past decades. Really, most of what we've seen in MoS and BvS (city-wide destruction, heroes being mistrusted by the public, heroes killing bad guys) isn't all that new and does not grim and gritty make. They have a sense of versimillitude that the MCU movies lack but that's it really. And frankly, I felt way more optimism when I say how ordinary people were helped by and in turn helped Superman in MoS and BvS than in the MCU depicting regular people as nothing but bodies to be tossed into the grave by the villain. That is when they weren't also turning them into straw men.

Tony and Steve's friendship is non-existent. In the three movies they've appeared in together, they've done nothing but be at each others throats. This is most evident in Civil War were Rogers spits in Tony's face at every turn and casually throws him under the bus for Bucky.
 

Cicada 5

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Darth Rosenberg said:
hermes said:
As a Moviegoer, I would much rather spend time watching a good film than a bad one. In fact, I am not a DCEU producer, so I won't burden myself with trifling issues like whether a movie is successful or not (in fact, that is an easy question given the subject; even Batman & Robin made a profit)... except to get angry that bad successful movies means more bad movies are on their way.
So 'good film = more good films', and bad = more bad? That's not exactly a hard and fast rule. Commercial success surely guarantees a property can either continue, or will have an impact in terms of other studios chasing similar styles or flavours of properties. A film that's perceived to be good but doesn't do well commercially has a very hard time impacting anything (it'll be interesting to see precisely what kind of a legacy Logan will leave, given it was certainly a commercial success relative to its budget and rating).

My point was obviously that, increasingly, it seems some studios are becoming actively resentful of critics and YT'ers having the cheek to form opinions and try to warn punters away from bad films. Quality evidently isn't their watchword.

And this isn't just any ol' studio or IP. BvS and Suicide Squad betrayed an ill thought out, poorly marketed, and indecisive shared universe[footnote]I'd say it was doomed from the start, given it's clear Zack Snyder has a surface level - at best - understanding of superheroes and comicbook mythos. Also I genuinely believe he might be a bit dimwitted... going from some of the facepalm inducing things he's said in interviews to try to justify MoS and BvS.[/footnote]. It seems WB don't really give a shit about critique or sensible world building. So if Justice League is a clusterfuck yet does well commercially, my point is that WB won't really give a toss. They'll barrel ahead as they've been doing thus far.
They have been talking about a lighter tone since before BvS was released and Geoff Johns has been given greater control over the DCEU. Snyder understands comic book mythos just fine and frankly I've seen far more idiotic things said by both superhero writers and fans like Grant Morrison.
 

Cicada 5

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Darth Rosenberg said:
hermes said:
As a Moviegoer, I would much rather spend time watching a good film than a bad one. In fact, I am not a DCEU producer, so I won't burden myself with trifling issues like whether a movie is successful or not (in fact, that is an easy question given the subject; even Batman & Robin made a profit)... except to get angry that bad successful movies means more bad movies are on their way.
So 'good film = more good films', and bad = more bad? That's not exactly a hard and fast rule. Commercial success surely guarantees a property can either continue, or will have an impact in terms of other studios chasing similar styles or flavours of properties. A film that's perceived to be good but doesn't do well commercially has a very hard time impacting anything (it'll be interesting to see precisely what kind of a legacy Logan will leave, given it was certainly a commercial success relative to its budget and rating).

My point was obviously that, increasingly, it seems some studios are becoming actively resentful of critics and YT'ers having the cheek to form opinions and try to warn punters away from bad films. Quality evidently isn't their watchword.

And this isn't just any ol' studio or IP. BvS and Suicide Squad betrayed an ill thought out, poorly marketed, and indecisive shared universe[footnote]I'd say it was doomed from the start, given it's clear Zack Snyder has a surface level - at best - understanding of superheroes and comicbook mythos. Also I genuinely believe he might be a bit dimwitted... going from some of the facepalm inducing things he's said in interviews to try to justify MoS and BvS.[/footnote]. It seems WB don't really give a shit about critique or sensible world building. So if Justice League is a clusterfuck yet does well commercially, my point is that WB won't really give a toss. They'll barrel ahead as they've been doing thus far.
Bob_McMillan said:
Agent_Z said:
Captain Marvelous said:
Apparently the cut that was unwatchable was Snyder's, before the Whedon reshoots.
http://screenrant.com/rumor-justice-league-unwatchable-reshoots-zack-snyder-joss-whedon/
I can't say I'm surprised.

I can understand why Cyborg is an issue. In the trailers he seems much more machine then he does man. Very lifeless and boring.
has anyone noticed that when it comes to Warner Bros. and specifically the section involved in the production of DC movies, everyone and their uncles have anonymous sources inside the studios, while on the other hand such sources are almost as rare as chicken teeth when it comes to Disney, Fox, Sony, etc.?

It always seemed a little weird to me, too.

Not really. I follow movie news through a podcast and it never seems like DC has more leaks or anonymous sources than other studios. Just recently we've been hearing a lot of bad stuff about The Solo Han Solo movie, and previously before that we also heard the same things about Rogue One. Fox if anything has the most rumours, and a lot of them end up being true.

It just so happens that the DCEU rumors are almost always negative and therefore get more press.

And Cyborg's always been more machine than man.
That is just wrong. That is literally the opposite of his entire character. His human components being more than his computer bits was the focus of an entire episode of Teen Titans. It is the one thing that makes him even remotely compelling.

Even his New 52 comics, which are shiiiiittttttt, the theme of still being human is constant.
I was talking more in physical appearance not personality. That's what the poster I replied to was talking about.
 

Cicada 5

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Basement Cat said:
I don't get the Joss Whedon hate. One thing WW taught Warner Bros was that "lighter" films than Snyder's were better received by a broader audience. / And given that this is a Snyder movie "lightening things up" could simply mean stopping it from being an Emo "Life is pain--slash your wrists" flick. That doesn't directly mean Joss is turning it into "My Little Pony". :D
Snyder makes grimdark films for angsty teenage boys - or angsty teenage boys trapped in men's bodies... Joss does not.

So any project one hands off to the other is in for a hard transition. I'd absolutely dread for a Whedon project to be tampered with by Snyder.

Did WB ask Joss to step in, or was it Snyder? Either way, it seems like they're throwing Joss under the bus if the original cut's as bad as is rumoured. If Zack asked him personally after what happened, I'd understand why he agreed to it. But if it was the WB and he didn't know about the family tragedy, then Joss was a fool to agree to it. I can only see this becoming a black mark on his career.

Laggyteabag said:
I wonder what will happen if Justice League turns out to be another critical failure.
Does it matter as long as it's a commercial success? Critical opinion is just fake news, after all... Moviegoers surely shouldn't burden themselves with trifling issues over whether a film might be good or not.

maninahat said:
Joss Whedon would make it worse still. His entire oeuvre is about taking something gritty and "realistic" and then slapping a ton of cheese all over it. He's the reason every Marvel comic book movie now has to be full of smart ass quipping, and if his Wonder Woman spec script is anything to go by, he'd do the exact same for DC.
Er, no. Favreau's Iron Man and RDJ set the tone for the MCU - not Joss Whedon.

Two Iron Man's, a Thor, and a [brilliantly] pulpy Captain America helped solidify precisely what the MCU was about. And after The Avengers we had The Winter Soldier, whose tone was markedly darker and more serious than The Avengers or anything before it. Ditto Civil War.

...and no, his entire oeuvre isn't that at all - or it is if you're not familiar with his full body of work, or you somehow count any ounce of humanity and humour as evidence of "cheese".
Didn't realise "humanity" was an endless barrage of inappropriate jokes and people acting like Looney Tunes on sugar rush. Whedon's characters might as well be from another planet and I'm not just talking about the alien god.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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maninahat said:
Joss Whedon would make it worse still. His entire oeuvre is about taking something gritty and "realistic" and then slapping a ton of cheese all over it. He's the reason every Marvel comic book movie now has to be full of smart ass quipping, and if his Wonder Woman spec script is anything to go by, he'd do the exact same for DC.
Are we talking about the same Whedon? Joss "Happiness is boring" Whedon? The guy who rose to prominence for his tendency to inflict ever increasing amounts of darkness and pain on the characters, before callously killing off a few of them for dramatic effect?

Sure, part of Whedon's writing style is his quippy, buffyspeak dialogue, but the other part is all about putting characters in bad situations that hurt them and watching the fallout of them dealing with that pain. So for the kind of movies what WB is going for, he seems like a good fit for re-shoots and editing. Especially since he's among the best in Hollywood when it comes to bouncing characters off of one another.
 

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Re-editing these movies is basically just like sticking it in the microwave. Yes... it's a quick fix. Yes... it will resemble a final product. But, by hell, you have just taken something and taken all the flavour out of it. It will be as bland and texture-less as a wet piece of bread.

I agree with @Maninahat... leave it be and let it be a consistent, if mediocre film. Then a collective consumer feedback can pick up on what we didn't like, not the grey suited movies-by-numbers guys.
 

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Agent_Z said:
Didn't realise "humanity" was an endless barrage of inappropriate jokes and people acting like Looney Tunes on sugar rush. Whedon's characters might as well be from another planet and I'm not just talking about the alien god.
Strikes me that you've not really closely watched much of his work across the years, because I'm fairly sure the critical consensus regarding acting and characterisation across shows and comics like Buffy, Firefly, even Dollhouse, Astonishing X-Men, and so on would not be as you try to describe. His characters have dynamic range, yes, and being an auteur his work tends to be recognisable (themes of found family are primary, usually found alongside a deep mistrust of power structures/hierarchies. humanist hope and fatalism also run through, I'd say, all his works. the final brilliant chitchat between Vision and Ultron in AoU is pretty much his own personal belief system cut down the middle. what profoundly humane scenes reveal Snyder's soul, I wonder?) - which is a positive trait, unless you're an opponent of anything approaching auteur theory.

His success across the decades hinges on his creations accessibility and relatability. Hell, even Dr Horrible is horribly empathetic and tragic.

If you simply object to his style, then fair enough. But questioning his works depth of humanity is clearly reaching.

Agent_Z said:
They have been talking about a lighter tone since before BvS was released and Geoff Johns has been given greater control over the DCEU.

Snyder understands comic book mythos just fine and frankly I've seen far more idiotic things said by both superhero writers and fans like Grant Morrison.
Really? MoS and BvS represent any level of understanding of these two characters (since when was 'complete idiocy' a defining trait of the World's Greatest Detective, or Supes, for that matter)? Or any level of understanding of how to build an extended universe? I mean, I know they were fast-tracking copying Marvel Studios and Disney, but it takes a very special level of incompetence to pull off what BvS did.

Is Snyder wholly to blame for that? No, clearly not given he didn't scrawl the script out. But he was responsible for setting the tone, and trying to cohere a narrative worth a damn in editing, so he certainly takes a decent portion of the blame (had he half a brain he could've tried to fix the whole Martha nonsense. had he any self-awareness he might've just admitted early on that Eissenberg really wasn't right for an appallingly written role. were he not such a selfish lover of violence, he might've not executed Jimmy Olsen off-hand in case someone else down the line had stuff for Supes' iconic sidekick to do. and so on).

It's clear he's not overly willing to divert away from surface-level masculinist fantasies where these kinds of stories are concerned, so I'm deeply skeptical he could've successfully steered Justice League into slightly less self-serious territory. Like Whedon's style or not, but he will go down in pop-culture as an incredibly adept comic writer in TV, film, web series, and comicbooks (and as director, as Much Ado About Nothing demonstrates). Snyder will never be known as someone with a natural grasp for the ebb and flow of banter. He can compose violent visual frames suffocated in CG--- aaand what else? He's orgiastically smashed towns and cities to pieces with the morose MoS, made Batman a relentlessly sadistic - and bewilderingly unintelligent - murderer, but what else can Snyder offer with these characters and this muddled universe?

As for Johns: I've read only the tiniest slither of DC comics (enough to know Joss should really be writing and directing a Kate Kane Batwoman film, not Batgirl), and never anything by him, but I'm reliably told he's known as a conservative, particularly with the key characters including the trinity? If so, how the hell did he let Warner and Snyder piss all over Batman and Superman and jam all they tried to into BvS (which was still trying to sort out its narrative details in the extended edit, so hapless was the theatrical pass)?

Warner and DC's Kevin Feige he ain' - at least not yet. The apparently troubled production of Justice League (where Whedon, of all people, will be helping reshape it) doesn't suggest that'll change anytime soon, either.
 

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Strikes me that you've not really closely watched much of his work across the years, because I'm fairly sure the critical consensus regarding acting and characterisation across shows and comics like Buffy, Firefly, even Dollhouse, Astonishing X-Men, and so on would not be as you try to describe. His characters have dynamic range, yes, and being an auteur his work tends to be recognisable (themes of found family are primary, usually found alongside a deep mistrust of power structures/hierarchies. humanist hope and fatalism also run through, I'd say, all his works. the final brilliant chitchat between Vision and Ultron in AoU is pretty much his own personal belief system cut down the middle. what profoundly humane scenes reveal Snyder's soul, I wonder?) - which is a positive trait, unless you're an opponent of anything approaching auteur theory.
I?ve watched Whedon?s work just fine. At best I get something like Buff which I start out as liking but over time the cracks start to show. This isn?t even getting into more troubling aspects of his work like his fetshism is skinny, white women clobbering things twice their size (no one would have been whining about Gal Gadot?s body if she were cast by Whedon) or his creepy self inserts like Xander Harris. If thst stuff floats your boat, good for you. It doesn?t do much for me these days.

Darth Rosenberg said:
If you simply object to his style, then fair enough. But questioning his works depth of humanity is clearly reaching.
I can say the same of your attitude towards Snyder?s DCEU work.


Darth Rosenberg said:
Really? MoS and BvS represent any level of understanding of these two characters (since when was 'complete idiocy' a defining trait of the World's Greatest Detective, or Supes, for that matter)?
If you define idiocy as not being omniscient and being unable to read the script to know the plot ahead of time, I suppose I can see how they come across as idiots to you.
I mean, Batman?s status as the World?s Greatest Detective has always been laughably overrated given it amounts to him chasing blatantly obvious clues left by criminals who in many cases don?t care if anyone knows about their crimes and in others want want to be caught. Given he?s done more detective work in BvS than previous films, it seems you really want a detective, you want Sherlock Holmes, standing over a footprint and extrapolating the gross national income of India.
And frankly, given how notoriously contradicting the depiction of DC?s characters are across stories and media, sometimes even within the same month of released comics, I can?t take Snyder just doing his own thing like everyone else has as reason to rip him apart.


Darth Rosenberg said:
Or any level of understanding of how to build an extended universe? I mean, I know they were fast-tracking copying Marvel Studios and Disney, but it takes a very special level of incompetence to pull off what BvS did.
If one assumes that everything Marvel does is Holy Writ, then of course, every other way is the bad way it seems.

Darth Rosenberg said:
Is Snyder wholly to blame for that? No, clearly not given he didn't scrawl the script out. But he was responsible for setting the tone, and trying to cohere a narrative worth a damn in editing, so he certainly takes a decent portion of the blame (had he half a brain he could've tried to fix the whole Martha nonsense. had he any self-awareness he might've just admitted early on that Eissenberg really wasn't right for an appallingly written role. were he not such a selfish lover of violence, he might've not executed Jimmy Olsen off-hand in case someone else down the line had stuff for Supes' iconic sidekick to do. and so on).
Snyder has zero control in editing. And between being wall paper in every film he?s appeared in, getting killed off in Smallville and basically having to be re-written into a completely unrecognisable character on Supergirl, I can hardly blame Snyder for being one of many to come to the conclusion of ?yeah this guy really adds nothing of value, does he??.

Darth Rosenberg said:
It's clear he's not overly willing to divert away from surface-level masculinist fantasies where these kinds of stories are concerned,
I have a lot of difficulty taking this argument seriously when you champion the MCU, whose version of Steve Rogers is nothing more than a self righteous, hypocritical war hawk whose only true skill and calling is beating the crap out of people and yet has somehow amassed a ridiculous amount of popularity.

Darth Rosenberg said:
so I'm deeply skeptical he could've successfully steered Justice League into slightly less self-serious territory. Like Whedon's style or not, but he will go down in pop-culture as an incredibly adept comic writer in TV, film, web series, and comicbooks (and as director, as Much Ado About Nothing demonstrates). Snyder will never be known as someone with a natural grasp for the ebb and flow of banter. He can compose violent visual frames suffocated in CG--- aaand what else? He's orgiastically smashed towns and cities to pieces with the morose MoS, made Batman a relentlessly sadistic - and bewilderingly unintelligent - murderer, but what else can Snyder offer with these characters and this muddled universe?
Are you Whedon?s auto biographer or something? Cause I really do not get why you?re trying this hard to shill him to me and honestly, it?s getting a little creepy.
As for what Snyder could do with them? How about actually focusing on their role as superheroes while acknowledging the fears and concerns of the people they protect. Something the MCU has avoided in Phases 1 and 2 and fantastically bungled in Phase 3 in Civil War. It?s amusing to me how Snyder is accused of promoting fascism in his DCEU films, yet the MCU is the one that champions putting unearned faith in charismatic individuals, while depicting the authorities put in place as inherently corrupt and incompetent, while the people they defend are helpless peons with no agency, their voices drowned out by the sounds of the melodramatic whining by the main characters. Civil War was supposed to be a valid examination of the Avengers? actions. But I guess the writers thought that wasn?t sexy enough so instead we got more drama with Bucky with the Good Hair and the destruction of Steve and Tony?s non-existent friendship. Had the MCU stuck to what they know best, quippy, bright action comedies, I?d have been more or less fine with it. But when Age of Ultron and Civil War decided that teen level melodrama was secondary to the themes they were meant to be examining, this universe went from mildly entertaining to outright offensive. These movies do the exact same crap the CW DC shows get slammed for except movies have less of an excuse given the shows don?t even have the budget for high octane adventure the films do and thus the soap opera crap is meant to fill in time between the punching.

And frankly, the Martha thing has been taken out of context so often for a cheap shot, I'm not even going to bother dignifying it by trying to explain it for the millionth time to someone who doesn't bother actually paying attention to that scene.

Darth Rosenberg said:
As for Johns: I've read only the tiniest slither of DC comics
And yet here you are crying about how Snyder got it all wrong.



Darth Rosenberg said:
(enough to know Joss should really be writing and directing a Kate Kane Batwoman film, not Batgirl), and never anything by him, but I'm reliably told he's known as a conservative, particularly with the key characters including the trinity? If so, how the hell did he let Warner and Snyder piss all over Batman and Superman and jam all they tried to into BvS (which was still trying to sort out its narrative details in the extended edit, so hapless was the theatrical pass)? Warner and DC's Kevin Feige he ain' - at least not yet. The apparently troubled production of Justice League (where Whedon, of all people, will be helping reshape it) doesn't suggest that'll change anytime soon, either.
You know it helps if you actually pay attention to what people say or do some damn research instead of saying, ?I heard it from a guy? (which interestingly enough describes just about every click bait report on the DCEU). Johns had next to zero control over what happened with BvS. His role amounted to a glorified consultant that WB mostly ignored. It wasn?t until May of last year, he was appointed the role of running the DCEU so maybe wait until the new films come out before you decide what he is and isn?t? Or maybe actually read something by the guy so you don?t come across like as talking about crap you don?t know about like the idiots spreading these rumors.
Whedon is not reshaping anything. he's the guy directing some additional acenes and completing the post-production work already started by Zack. At least, that's what we've been told DOZENS of times. Of course, this movie could be a Snyder movie from top to bottom and people would insist was the Holy Grail just because Whedon was involved in it. Only climate change deniers are as disconnected from reality.