Easy Mode Hate Explained

[Sexy Devil]

All this has probably been fielded already but I'm not going through the whole 3 pages. Speaking as a person with a disability, people who want no difficulty options need to shut the hell up. Not everyone is at the same skill level, and some of us are just plain not capable of getting to the necessary skill level. I mean I'm not going to play a game specifically designed to be difficult like Dark Souls, but other stuff should be fair game for all of us. It's stupid that people want me to give up my hobby because they want a challenge but don't have the self-control to choose the difficulty level which will give them that.

Also the accomplishment argument kind of became false with the addition of achievements. I believe that in a lot of instances they're set so that you don't get the achievement unless you've been on hard mode for the whole run.

Movie Bro dissagrees on the "accomplishment" thing:


I, in the other hand, accept the hardness of a game if it what the author intended all along.

I wonder if Assassin's Creed 3's lead designer is aware of the irony of him of all people saying easy mode ruins games. I mean I like AC but it's ludicrously easy.

 

[maninahat]

I actually have trouble believing that people have an issue with an easy option in the first place. The fact of the matter is, gamers have lots of different standards, but they are equal in that they all (hopefully) paid for the game. As a paying customer, I'd be infuriated if 80% of a game was locked off to me because I lacked the arbitrary level of skill necessary to pass a certain boss. If I can't beat it without sinking huge amounts of time into tedious trail and error game play, I'm not having fun, I'm not being challenged, and I'm being denied content through arbitrary design standard. Gaming is personal, so the extent of the challenge should be personal too.

Further more, I disagree that variable difficulty settings diminish the quality or point of the work. This isn't like a book, wherein the brilliance would be lost if you swapped out the poetic language and clever references for grade 2 language. In games, Alyx Vance will still tell zombine jokes, stalkers will still want you to come on over bro, and the crowd will still cheer if you 3 star Free Bird, whether you do it on the hardest or easiest mode. Playing STALKER on easy did not make the game a cake walk for me. It simply made it possible for me to enjoy a challenge without feeling frustrated, and it did so without harming the scavenging mechanics, or the desperation, the panic or the sense of accomplishment I felt throughout. If you find the easier modes too easy, pick a harder mode for yourself and don't decide for me what standards I should be playing at.

 

[Dogstile]

So your chocking it all down to bragging rights? I think there is a bit more to it than that. People just want challenges, and many people like myself don't want the temptation of an easy mode option there, because we could so easily fall into that trap, robbing us of the sense of enjoyment and fulfillment when we finally beat and complete a hard game. Sure, I like to brag, but more so than that, I like to feel accomplished.

EDIT: So everyone here is getting the wrong idea that somehow I believe that the industry should cater to my needs just because of my particular nuances. Stop reading so much into it, to think that way is arrogant and this is just my opinion. It's not even the full opinion, and I will say it right there that there is more to his entire debacle than just mere "temptation" as I described. But nope, you choice few people had to jump all over my words....and before you think of replying, or quoting me.....I lost interest in having a discussion with you people hours ago. Now excuse me, I got a new 3DS today and it's calling my name.

In which case, just edit your post to say "I quit, don't respond" and nothing else, because people are still going to quote you, especially over "I don't want easy mode to be there in case I get tempted". Yeah, totally a valid reason to stop everyone else from enjoying a game.

And yes, people are going to jump over the words you said. Its a forum, what you say is who you are on a forum, you haven't given any other reason, so at the moment your poor self control is the only thing that people know about you.

 

[chikusho]

If you find the easier modes too easy, pick a harder mode for yourself and don't decide for me what standards I should be playing at.

And if you find a game too hard, pick an easier game for yourself and don't decide for the developer what kind of game they should be making.

 

[maninahat]

If you find the easier modes too easy, pick a harder mode for yourself and don't decide for me what standards I should be playing at.

And if you find a game too hard, pick an easier game for yourself and don't decide for the developer what kind of game they should be making.

NO, you see, that makes no sense to either myself or the developer. The dev wants to sell games to people, and I want to play games. If they pointlessly exclude less skilled players with frustrating, time consuming, non-optional, high difficulty levels, they're losing perfectly good customers and I'm losing a perfectly good game. Most people have the mindset that more gamers and more games played are a good thing.

As I said, being able to play STALKER on easy mode has not deprived more skilled gamers of anything. Refusing to put in an easy mode in STALKER does deprive less skilled gamers of an enjoyable game.

 

[hermes]

Here is the deal with "Easy Mode", as well as any other choice: Its an option. If you don't like it, don't use it; but stop talking as everyone should play games the same way as you. If you are so weak willed as to think difficulty setting is a "temptation" and your self esteem is tied to finishing a game "properly", you probably has little bragging rights in real life to begin with.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

EDIT: I'd like to add that From Software said they want to make Dark Souls II more accessible. This does not mean easy mode. It means more accessible. In the same way that Dark Souls was made to be more accessible than Demon's Souls.

Given that a statistically significant portion of the game's fabled difficulty comes from its opaque, user hostile environment that artfully hides useful information from the player, a more accessible Dark Souls would inevitably be an easier Dark Souls.

I seriously question if those in favor for a dark souls easy mode has actually played the game in question. Because here's the thing; Dark souls is not in need of an easy mode. The game is not cheap, the game does not have numerous unfair challenges, the enemies are not unbalanced, and the bosses are not brick walls with death lasers.

I say this out of experience, I just recently decided to give dark souls a go and I can honestly say that I never found the game to be hard. Now that's not to say that I didn't die, I certainly did, a lot. But the deaths were never unfair, the traps were never invisible.

Nonsense. I'm playing it right now! It depends on how you define cheap, though, I'll give you that. The game has a lot of "forced failure". It will dump you cheerfully into situations you cannot reasonably expect to survive without knowledge of how the situation works. Which you gain by experiencing it, and dying. The archers in Anor Londo are a prime example of this. Capra Demon would be another. Most recently in Tomb of the Giants I went sledding down a coffin to find myself on a narrow ledge. Because I was alert to danger and had my shield up, I spotted the skeleton to my right immediately, and turned to engage. While fighting him, I took two arrows in the back. Oh, a skeleton archer, off in the gloom, taking cheap shots. New information! So I wound my way around my opponent so I didn't have an exposed back. Oh, a 2nd skeleton hiding behind the first. Dead. There is really no way to reasonably expect someone will do anything upon first discovering that than die. The fucking game is CALLED "prepare to die". There is most definitely an element of cheapness in Dark Souls. It's not omnipresent in every encounter, but there are plenty of moments where the developers clearly felt it was time for the player to take a ganking.

...well, we just had a topic about easy mode in Dark Souls in which I, and PLENTY OF OTHER DARK SOULS PLAYERS, outlined the reasons, as we have done in EVERY easy mode Dark Souls topic, that easy mode would be a bad thing, and elitism is NOT a prevalent concern!

We've had like twelve discussions on it actually, it seems to be a hot topic. If you've grown tired of it, by all means abandon the threads. But don't throw a strop because people have the temerity to continue discussing something after you've weighed in on it. You're not the final authority. You don't come in, issue the last word, and close the discussion.

And elitism has most definitely been a prevalent concern amongst a healthy proportion of debaters when it comes to this issue. However that's a dead end discussion, because almost without exception the people being the most elitist are the last to recognize it.

 

[The_Echo]

EDIT: I'd like to add that From Software said they want to make Dark Souls II more accessible. This does not mean easy mode. It means more accessible. In the same way that Dark Souls was made to be more accessible than Demon's Souls.

Given that a statistically significant portion of the game's fabled difficulty comes from its opaque, user hostile environment that artfully hides useful information from the player, a more accessible Dark Souls would inevitably be an easier Dark Souls.

I don't think accessibility = ease.

Take, for example, Super Mario Bros. Super accessible; anyone can play Mario. But those later worlds are hard as butts.

Accessibility is how quick a player can understand the game, not how quick they can be good at it.

 

[Fasckira]

many people like myself don't want the temptation of an easy mode option there, because we could so easily fall into that trap, robbing us of the sense of enjoyment and fulfillment when we finally beat and complete a hard game.

So wait, because you're weak willed that means less experienced or skilled gamers have to suffer? I'd say thats some misplaced hate if so.

 

[chikusho]

NO, you see, that makes no sense to either myself or the developer. The dev wants to sell games to people, and I want to play games. If they pointlessly exclude less skilled players with frustrating, time consuming, non-optional, high difficulty levels, they're losing perfectly good customers and I'm losing a perfectly good game. Most people have the mindset that more gamers and more games played are a good thing.

As I said, being able to play STALKER on easy mode has not deprived more skilled gamers of anything. Refusing to put in an easy mode in STALKER does deprive less skilled gamers of an enjoyable game.

YES, you see that makes perfekt sense to both you and the developer. The dev wants to create a unique and engaging high quality experience with a specific purpose and artistic integrity in mind, and you want to experience a unique, engaging, high quality experience with a specific purpose and artistic integrity.
If they pointlessly include unnecessary options that takes a lot of time, effort and resources to implement and lowers the quality and integrity of the experience, they risk alienating their perfectly good niche audience that they are making the game for as well as tarnishing their brand, and you will never get the opportunity to experience something potentially amazing that you wouldn't have had the chance to do otherwise by actually using the product in the way that it was intended.
Most people have the mindset that higher quality games are a good thing.

I don't know anything about STALKER, so I can't comment on how their difficulty is implemented.

 

[chikusho]

Accessibility is how quick a player can understand the game, not how quick they can be good at it.

Aaaaaand, a key element of Dark Souls is that it's supposed to be difficult to understand the game.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

...well, we just had a topic about easy mode in Dark Souls in which I, and PLENTY OF OTHER DARK SOULS PLAYERS, outlined the reasons, as we have done in EVERY easy mode Dark Souls topic, that easy mode would be a bad thing, and elitism is NOT a prevalent concern!

We've had like twelve discussions on it actually, it seems to be a hot topic. If you've grown tired of it, by all means abandon the threads. But don't throw a strop because people have the temerity to continue discussing something after you've weighed in on it. You're not the final authority. You don't come in, issue the last word, and close the discussion.

And elitism has most definitely been a prevalent concern amongst a healthy proportion of debaters when it comes to this issue. However that's a dead end discussion, because almost without exception the people being the most elitist are the last to recognize it.

Fair enough, I have been abrasive and I should probably realise some people may be seeing this topic for the first time. I'm not suggesting it's my opinion that's final, more that all that can be said has been said and that already existing opinions should be taken into account when discussing a topic so thoroughly discussed already. But anyway - I would like it pointed out to me how I in particular am being elitist. Because I've seen a lot of posts I sympathise with, and they have, by my reckoning, not been elitist, as I myself profess not to be. Introspection is famously flawed however, and if I'm making an idiot of myself I'd like to know. What I see are often - not always - the accusations of elitism come from non-players responding to avid fans who have other concerns. Occasionally a player has cited elitism as being one of the benefits of Dark Souls, but in my experience it is a rare stance to take.

 

[The_Echo]

Accessibility is how quick a player can understand the game, not how quick they can be good at it.

Aaaaaand, a key element of Dark Souls is that it's supposed to be difficult to understand the game.

That's... not true. If that were the case, why would From bother to make it more accessible than its predecessor? I understand every bit of Dark Souls, but that doesn't make it any easier. Knowing how a game works is what makes it playable, not what makes it easy. Making a game opaque is counterproductive, artificial 'difficulty' and poor design.

 

[chikusho]

That's... not true. If that were the case, why would From bother to make it more accessible than its predecessor? I understand every bit of Dark Souls, but that doesn't make it any easier. Knowing how a game works is what makes it playable, not what makes it easy. Making a game opaque is counterproductive, artificial 'difficulty' and poor design.

Oh It's true alright. Very few things in Dark Souls come with a description, and a few of them are inaccurate.
You learn how things work by doing them, not by the game teaching you how but by figuring things out for yourself.
Making a game opaque is a very useful tool for establishing uncertainty in a hostile environment, and it's great design if that is what you are designing.

 

[burningdragoon]

Well the biggest reason is the same biggest reason for pretty much anything. It's the "leave my toys alone" hate. Some instances are sillier than others, for example things with a lot of racism, sexism, etc. In the case of Dark Souls, it's more along the lines of there being so few things like it being made. Being worried that a change in design will eventually, if not right away, lead to the game no longer appealing to it's original niche is not unreasonable. People (seem to) like to throw around the word "optional" like every option is created in a vacuum.

There are plenty of mechanical arguments for and against easy mode of varying validity, but at the moment what's most important to me is pretty simple. Modal difficulty runs counter to the game's setting. You can't be a cold, unforgiving world that doesn't care about the character or the player if you are also providing an explicitly easier experience by flipping a switch.

By all means, most games should have explicitly easier modes, but please just leave this one toy of mine/ours alone.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't think accessibility = ease.

Take, for example, Super Mario Bros. Super accessible; anyone can play Mario. But those later worlds are hard as butts.

Accessibility is how quick a player can understand the game, not how quick they can be good at it.

Well, no...accessibility does not necessarily = ease, but a lack of it can certainly make things harder. Classic Everquest was renowned for this too (and remains to this day the best comparable for Dark Souls). Obfuscate enough information, and everything becomes harder. There's a reason people are constantly saying that the first few hours in Dark Souls are by far the most brutal, even though they are the most mechanically forgiving. It's because you have no idea what the fuck is going on, or how anything works.

But anyway - I would like it pointed out to me how I in particular am being elitist. Because I've seen a lot of posts I sympathise with, and they have, by my reckoning, not been elitist, as I myself profess not to be. Introspection is famously flawed however, and if I'm making an idiot of myself I'd like to know. What I see are often - not always - the accusations of elitism come from non-players responding to avid fans who have other concerns. Occasionally a player has cited elitism as being one of the benefits of Dark Souls, but in my experience it is a rare stance to take.

Oh I have no idea if you specifically have been. My memory isn't that good. A lot have been, though. The actual definition of elitism may be the problem here. Like entitlement, there seems to be some confusion over what it actually means, and I think people are defending themselves against a charge they fundamentally misunderstand. Being elitist simply means that you hold yourself above and apart. You believe you have superior X, Y and Z, and that these superior attributes should grant you certain privileges not available to your inferiors. In this particular case, the game in its entirety.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

When easy is the default thing they make the game too there is a reason why most real gamers hate it and noobs do not understand as they can not keep up and whine its unbalanced and hard....

 

[gorfias]

I beat Star wars: The Force Unleashed on the hardest difficulty. Look at my huge Wang.

The fact that the game has multiple difficulties does not take away from that, where is your God now OP?

Yeah, way, way, waaaaaaaay back in the day, I beat Castle Wolfenstein 3D. So did a cousin that promptly asked, "on what mode?" Easy. He said he'd done it on hard. Fixed. He still had bragging rights, I told him I'm not worthy, done. But, as someone that really stinks at games, but loves them a lot, I got to blow up Adolf Hitler in a robot suit. That wouldn't have happened at all if the game were impossibly hard for me.

A TRUE easy mode expands your user base and the number of people that can be satisfied. Bragging rights can still be had by including a hard/expert/insane mode.