I did that, thank you. Fortunately, I didn't have to wade through countless whining. I found one article with a face to face interview that very much puts me on Mike's side in that brouhaha.theklng said:
EDGE of Asshattery
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
All of the time? No. Occasionally? Yes. Which is his point in the article. He said the same thing the year before and no one said a word, but for some reason when it was said this year, people freaked out. Most of that was a knee-jerk response to the "EA Spouse" issue, where indeed, the situation was not being handled properly.theklng said:
I don't know if you read the Joystiq interview that I did - I'd give you a link, but since you simply suggested that I "Google it" instead of being helpful, I'll do the same - Capps stated that they have a 1% voluntary employee turnover in an an industry that runs 12-15%. Employees like the benefits, like the environment, and understand what it means to put in extra hours at crunch time. No, it would not work if they did that all the time, and Capps addresses that.
Nobody's complaining about farmers or doctors or soldiers working more than 40 hours a week. There were times in a simple retail job where I had to work 55-60 hours a week because of staff shortages. It happens. In this industry where there are deadlines that have to be met ("Oh, ask E3 to wait a week. We're not done with the demo and we can't work over 40 hours."), you just do what you have to do.
i'm not sure how to respond to this, frankly. i mean, if you have a regular 9 to 5 job set at 37.5 hours a week (which as far as europe goes at least is the norm), wouldn't you then be surprised if suddenly your schedule got reworked so that for ~2 months or so have to work for almost the double amount of time?SpaceGhost2K said:
not only is it illegal to issue overtime work without consent from the employee (for 48+ hours in the UK; source [http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10028439]), but what if you wouldn't get paid for that overtime either? wouldn't that just be the icing on the cake?
the problem is that crunching in the game industry has become the norm, and this opens up a large hole for employers to exploit. what if you were in a situation where you would get fired if you refused to do the overtime that from your employer's point of view was necessary? what about your quality of life outside of work? or even your physical health?
... and you agree on this? you think it's fair to abuse employees for the gain of the company? or that employees may get overstressed, and as a result, falls ill?
yes it's the very same interview.
so just because every steals, does that make it a legal action to perform?
the answer is no, and just because you have had it happened to you that you had to work long hours or otherwise, it doesn't mean that it should continue. it doesn't mean that it should decrease your quality of life or make you physically or mentally ill. there are laws for these issues for a reason.
a good project manager will know how to schedule deadlines or milestones so that the most risky, critical or otherwise difficult components won't be made last minute. then, if E3 was coming along, you wouldn't the problem of working 60 hours up until game day. you would, in other words, be prepared instead of unprepared.
i could write much more about this, but i suspect you'll get the gist of this.
[Takes deep breath... exhales slowly.]Susan Arendt said:
...
...GRAAAAAAAAAAH!!! *ahem* This article makes me very angry and my psycho-emotional maturity is not beyond wishing physical harm on... *gags a little* Tim. However, I guess I can refrain from voicing such wishes.
At the very least, I hope the IGDA have a ballot among their members, and a vote of no confidence is passed. Furthermore, I hope Mister *gag* Langdell is alienated by all his friends and associates, treads in more dog poo than is statistically probable, can never again find matching socks... and develops a phobia of rabbits to boot.
Oh yes; my wrath is fearsome... fear it.
"a good project manager will know how to schedule deadlines or milestones so that the most risky, critical or otherwise difficult components won't be made last minute."theklng said:
Have you ever heard of a developer who did this? Ever? Nice and smooth and even all the way to launch day? I guess, according to you, there is no such thing as a good project manager since this doesn't happen in this industry.
I worked in a warehouse for a distributor that sold videos and music. We only had so many employees, so when we had a big project show up, even "crunching", there was only so much you could do. We would hire dozens of temps to do the project, and then let them go. You can't do that when you're making a game. You can't arbitrarily add two dozen employees to "help." And you can't hire those two dozen employees at the beginning and have them stand around picking their navels until they're needed.
Making a game is an A-to-Z process and you have to get their alphabetically. You can't do "Z" until "Y" is done, and there's just simply nothing you can do to speed up the process of A-to-K. That's a long process with a few people. Once you get past "K" there's more "nose to the grindstone" work, and by the time you get to "W" it's "bust your ass until it's done."
I still think you're not grasping the idea of "crunch time" and "overall mistreatment of employees." Crunch time is not a big deal. It's the 50-60 hours, every single week, when it's obvious there's a problem. There's no way to avoid crunch time without bringing in extra people, and turning out an inferior game.
Like he said, his turnover speaks for itself.
i have, and you see all the time with regular software developers. i have to ask the question: what do you know about the industry? have you tried working in it or are you just basing everything about it on what you read on the web and your own assumptions? the thing about news on the web is that they only post when things to WRONG, not when things go right. there are game projects that go smoothly, but they're hardly interesting for news sources since they are the norm.SpaceGhost2K said:
i hate to pull this on you, but don't compare manual labor to an industry where you have god damn strategies to take care of management and data. scientists and developers have developed ways to counter more or less any situation that may arise in any project. those people whom of you hear just don't want to do that little bit of extra work in the beginning that makes the whole process smooth towards the end.
this is absolute bull. making a game, or any software project is rarely a linear path. sure there are small linear bits, but for the most part you can work concurrently on what have you. software architecture and design is all about concurrent development, because you'd never reach the end of a project if a game was getting done sequentially. with good software practices, a programmer won't have to wait for another programmer to finish his work in order to do his own. a level designer won't need a finished engine to use the level editor; nor will a creative director have to wait for the game designer(s) to finish the design doc in order to create an atmosphere for the game.
it really pisses me off when people start talking about things they have no idea of.
crunch is a big deal, and if you'd read up about the industry, it is beginning to be a problem. not just because of the legal 48+ hours rule, but also because the private life gets diminished. i honestly think you should try applying in the industry yourself before you go and say you support work ethics that were made from the 1950s.
does that mean he can set an example for every company in the industry? what works for him does not necessarily work world wide. if this becomes the norm, you'll see people leaving the industry due to quality of life and physical problems - and that's not what this industry is about.
in additional, i urge you not to spew bull when you have no idea about how project management or software architecture work. instead, you can feel free to go look up the development cycles that most if not all developers use for concurrency. so please, read up on things before you talk. people have been long enough in this business to figure out the right and the wrong ways to do things. sadly, because the game industry is still young, people still have problems making things work properly.
This just in: Activision have made Tim Langdell CEO!
It can only happen soon......
Although, I might trademark whatever he might be calling his next game. Just to piss him off.
Hey Tim! EDGE EDGE EDGE EDGE EDGE
You won't get a penny out of me, nor a word in edgeways....
(Pardon that joke but I felt it had to be done
)
It can only happen soon......
Although, I might trademark whatever he might be calling his next game. Just to piss him off.
Hey Tim! EDGE EDGE EDGE EDGE EDGE
You won't get a penny out of me, nor a word in edgeways....
(Pardon that joke but I felt it had to be done
)
I did email him, just the link to this thread, and heres his responseShamus Young said:
Dear John
Thank you for contacting Edge. The information on the website in question is extremely inaccurate. Please do not believe what you read on such websites. If you have any questions for us, please do not hesitate to ask us.
Edge Games, Inc.
Its pretty standard stuff.
Sorry man. We're gonna have to just agree to disagree. I see his point, I think it's a valid point, and while his company might not be representative of all companies, he doesn't RUN all companies so he can hardly be held accountable for others.theklng said:
This thread was turning into a show about you and me, so I'm dropping it.