Editor's Note: Better Than Before

[Dastardly]

Editor's Note: Better Than Before

Russ Pitts puts games aside for a moment to take stock of a momentous event: the death of Osama Bin Laden.

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I know editors necessarily have very thick skins, so this is probably a needless comment, but try to ignore the folks attacking your position. Those of us who share it recognize the following:

1. You're not universally praising every move the government has made, but you don't feel this is the time at which you have to enumerate your various grievances with them.

2. You're not claiming this was the first terrorist attack ever, but it was certainly one that was very visible (just given America's world status). It was indeed a game-changer, and it is not jingoistic to say so.

3. You're not comparing or weighing losses with other countries here. This one hurts you because you had a personal stake in it. I don't imagine anyone in South Africa was crying over 9/11 if they didn't have friends or family among the victims, just like I don't cry over every traffic accident in Moscow. It's not selfish, it's honest--a splinter in my foot hurts me more than you getting your foot cut off hurts me, so I'm going to react more strongly to that.

All that crap aside, and returning to the topic of the issue, this brings our own "cliffhanger ending" to a somewhat anti-climactic close. We can finally move on to the next installment in our own national "series."

 

[Hive Mind]

Editor's Note: Better Than Before

Russ Pitts puts games aside for a moment to take stock of a momentous event: the death of Osama Bin Laden.

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Sooo, the death of some 100 000 civilians in the Middle East doesn't register with you? No. The death of one man who helped arrange an attack that murdered 2000 is what sparks a chord with you. All those 100 000 men, women and children just trying to live day to day. Yeah, the death of one man is much more of a talking point.

You miss the point.

This hit him closer to home.

Him, as a single person in a country that had it's foundations shook.

He feels the pain that it caused because he CAN.

We can attempt to care about those far away, but honestly it's harder to grasp.

Also, I apologize for the vague and lacking explanation.

I'm in a hurry.

The U.S and their occupation of various Middle Eastern countries has caused more death than the 9/11 attacks. By FAR. Have you see the footage of U.S troops shooting a man and a baby? "His fault for bringing a baby into a warzone." "Too right." - U.S troops. I'm sorry, "warzone"? You mean THEIR HOME? Turns out the man was unarmed and was going to church with his family. The whole bloody war was started decades ago by the damn U.S.

I'm so sick of Americans crying while they invade people's homes and slaughter them. How hard your life is, murdering people in their home. 'Remember 9/11? Oh how the world changed!' Just doesn't sound... right, when you are occupying people's backyards and turning the world to shit.

If you have more empathy for 2000 strangers than 100 000 strangers because they speak your language and have your skin colour, you need medical help.

 

[Hristo Tzonkov]

As a person from eastern europe,I've always had a bad view on America and what it does to the rest of the world.I knew that 9/11 was a tragedy but I thought to myself,maybe it's a message that needs to be sent.Stop going into wars where you're not needed,stop trying to enforce your way of life and politics.I've never actually looked at it from that perspective so I thank the Russ for giving me that insight.That of a person living in America who took a whole lotta shit because of what happened.

 

[nipsen]

..I know how you feel, Russ. I mourned the death of my hamster once. Took me weeks to get over it. Scarred me for life.

 

[Woodsey]

I think this is way more of a thing for just Americans than Americans realise.

Like that awful speech in Independence Day. Talk about cringe - no amount of Will Smith can balance that out.

As for Bin Laden... eh. What it seems they've done is killed the guy who knew the most about all that was going on, but not the guy who was the single pin holding the entire cause together (because there isn't one). Not much of a victory.

 

[UNHchabo]

yes there was a lot of power from that man and possible more terror, but why not judge him? why not to put him under law instead of just killing him?

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think it's very possible that the entry team had orders to take him alive if possible, but since bin Laden started firing at them, they fired back.

 

[Tuqui]

yes there was a lot of power from that man and possible more terror, but why not judge him? why not to put him under law instead of just killing him?

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think it's very possible that the entry team had orders to take him alive if possible, but since bin Laden started firing at them, they fired back.

Nothing against you, but if they are capable of a head shot they could also target arm or hands to make him drop his weapon, also speculating.

 

[John Funk]

The way that Americans are reacting to his death reminds me the people who celebrated the Sept 11 attacks.

And then they try and dress it up with words like peace and justice and whatnot. If you feel that you must celebrate violent revenge and the death of an enemy then by all means do so. I can understand that. I've done it myself, albeit on a much smaller scale. It's what people do. But don't try to pretend that it's any more than that.

Frankly, the whole damned affair leaves me feeling mildly disgusted.

Osama Bin Laden was responsible for not only the deaths of thousands on Sept. 11, but as many as three million Afghans, and he was a figurehead for ultraconservative movements in muslim countries all around the globe, many of whom are responsible for brutal acts in their own countries.

It ain't just the West that's glad he's gone, is my meaning. The world is a better place without him. And one can be happy that the man is dead and not approve of the changes that happened over the ten years as a result of the hunt.

Also, for people who lost a friend or family member in the Sept. 11 attacks, this is important closure. It may be nothing more than symbolism, but symbolism is sometimes important.

 

[nipsen]

1. You're not universally praising every move the government has made, but you don't feel this is the time at which you have to enumerate your various grievances with them.

It doesn't matter, you know. 2000 people die every day because of wars none of you know why is fought. More people than that die every day from curable diseases. Hell, people die every day because they don't have access to clean drinking water.

The truth is that the "personal stake" people have in this one event is predicated in large parts on the idea that Osama bin Laden is another Hitler-person that embodies the evil of everything on the planet. The actual impact is exclusively emotional - and it's experienced by people who did not have relatives or friends anywhere near New York.

It's childish, it's offensive, and it reveals a world-view so narrow it is hard to accept it's even possible.

Not only that - but the empathy is also exclusive. It's not just blue-eyed fascination with victims around the world. Oh, no. It's very clearly /only/ about "that momentous day". And then that emotional scar is "healed" by killing some random raghead in the Afghan mountains.

But you've no idea how offensive this stuff is to the rest of us, now have you?

Imagine a council-meeting. On the Agenda is: War in Sudan, War in Afghanistan, Relief efforts in Libya, security force authorisation and ROEs, organisation of private military companies and private relief agencies, usage of foreign technical resources for rebuilding efforts.

And the fat guy with one of the votes comes in and demands we should all stand in a moment of silence because his aunt passed away.

No offence, but go to hell.

 

[UNHchabo]

yes there was a lot of power from that man and possible more terror, but why not judge him? why not to put him under law instead of just killing him?

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think it's very possible that the entry team had orders to take him alive if possible, but since bin Laden started firing at them, they fired back.

Nothing against you, but if they are capable of a head shot they could also target arm or hands to make him drop his weapon, also speculating.

It's just not that simple. If someone's shooting at you, you're going to aim at whatever you can see. If he was shooting from behind cover, it's very possible that part of his head was all that was visible. Or maybe they were aiming for center-of-mass, and "missed" high.

There are a very small selection of scenarios where it's possible to "shoot the gun out of the hand" on purpose. That's only really possible if they're holding the gun away from themselves (hostage scenarios are the most common); otherwise they'll likely be holding the gun near their head (to look down the sights).

 

[Sixcess]

I think this is way more of a thing for just Americans than Americans realise.

QFT.

The sad thing is that there was a more or less worldwide feeling of sympathy and solidarity toward the USA in the days, weeks and months after 9/11, but it didn't last. Mistrust over the motives of the coalition in going to war in Iraq, and the dismal realisation that the coalition had no idea of how to win the peace, saw to that.

It's a nice pre-election boost for Obama, and a 'feel good' story for the US, but in the long run it changes nothing. To draw an analogy appropriate to this site, the final boss may have been killed, but his minions will continue to respawn.

 

[Tuqui]

It's just not that simple. If someone's shooting at you, you're going to aim at whatever you can see. If he was shooting from behind cover, it's very possible that part of his head was all that was visible. Or maybe they were aiming for center-of-mass, and "missed" high.

There are a very small selection of scenarios where it's possible to "shoot the gun out of the hand" on purpose. That's only really possible if they're holding the gun away from themselves (hostage scenarios are the most common); otherwise they'll likely be holding the gun near their head (to look down the sights).

Oh, thanks for explaining, I now nothing about guns, I understand now a little more, and Yeah I see what you mean.

 

[Dastardly]

And the fat guy with one of the votes comes in and demands we should all stand in a moment of silence because his aunt passed away.

No offence, but go to hell.

Who told you that you had to? No one. No one anywhere is telling anyone that they must believe this is significant. They're only saying it is significant to them, and then they're having to defend that position by saying you should allow them to find it significant to themselves.

Sorry, but my aunt passing away has more emotional pull for me than an orphan dying in a fire in China. It's not because I hate orphans, or because I believe they're less valuable than my aunt. It's because I know my aunt, and now she's dead. It's just far more immediate a loss, and I can see its effect in my life right before my eyes.

Americans all over are celebrating. They are not, however, demanding that you celebrate, or demanding that you watch them celebrate. Your outrage is self-manufactured, and it reflects a very intensely arrogant point of view that everyone everywhere must share your priorities so you don't have to endure hearing them celebrate something you're not excited about.

 

[Dastardly]

I think this is way more of a thing for just Americans than Americans realise.

That's just it, though. We totally realize it's just an American thing. And we're Americans. So we're celebrating. And our reporters here in America are reporting about all these Americans that are celebrating.

And then people in other countries are watching these American news videos or reading these American news stories and they happen to be seeing us celebrating. But we're not telling them to celebrate. We're not telling them this has to matter to them at all. We're just celebrating, and other people are watching us.

I just haven't seen any indication that people are trying to push this on non-Americans. If England or Australia or Japan or Korea or Russia are having a slow news day, and they decide to report about how much those Americans are celebrating, that's not us. That's them.

 

[Dastardly]

Osama Bin Laden was responsible for not only the deaths of thousands on Sept. 11, but as many as three million Afghans, and he was a figurehead for ultraconservative movements in muslim countries all around the globe, many of whom are responsible for brutal acts in their own countries.

It ain't just the West that's glad he's gone, is my meaning. The world is a better place without him. And one can be happy that the man is dead and not approve of the changes that happened over the ten years as a result of the hunt.

Also, for people who lost a friend or family member in the Sept. 11 attacks, this is important closure. It may be nothing more than symbolism, but symbolism is sometimes important.

To go a bit further, even, the victory is that bin Laden has been stopped. The fact that he was killed is as unfortunate as any death, no matter how necessary it may have been. Death isn't what we're celebrating.

We're celebrating that he was stopped, not how he was stopped.

 

[Thaluikhain]

the twin towers probably the single biggest attack on a civilian target since nukes were dropped in Japan.

kind of ironic that the only attacks that compare were done by the victims of the most recent big one.

Not really...the death toll from using atomic weapons on cities were the odd order of magnitute higher than 911.

Really, the death toll from 911 wasn't that high at all, if we are comparing it to military actions. Quite impressive for a criminal/terrorist act, but not that hard to outdo with a decently sized massacre or mass bombing.

 

[nipsen]

Americans all over are celebrating. They are not, however, demanding that you celebrate, or demanding that you watch them celebrate. Your outrage is self-manufactured, and it reflects a very intensely arrogant point of view that everyone everywhere must share your priorities so you don't have to endure hearing them celebrate something you're not excited about.

Sure. I'll easily admit that it's a self-manufactured outrage over how Americans feel the need to celebrate their narrow-mindedness. Note that it also affects me immediately, because the Wicked Witch becomes a political size that I have to contend with. It's not something the US is doing in the quiet of their homes, you see.

But none of that changes the fact that the emotional outrage is disgustingly egotistical. Can you even imagine what sort of outrage - and rightly so - there would have been, had someone started to celebrate the death of random Americans, because of the political significance. And then on top of this - how emotionally important it would be?

If I said that for me, personally, it was gratifying to see Americans suffer. That it was emotionally relieving, and a sign of more good things to come. That it would be a start of my personal restoration - how would you have reacted?

 

[Woodsey]

I think this is way more of a thing for just Americans than Americans realise.

That's just it, though. We totally realize it's just an American thing. And we're Americans. So we're celebrating. And our reporters here in America are reporting about all these Americans that are celebrating.

And then people in other countries are watching these American news videos or reading these American news stories and they happen to be seeing us celebrating. But we're not telling them to celebrate. We're not telling them this has to matter to them at all. We're just celebrating, and other people are watching us.

I just haven't seen any indication that people are trying to push this on non-Americans. If England or Australia or Japan or Korea or Russia are having a slow news day, and they decide to report about how much those Americans are celebrating, that's not us. That's them.

I was referring more to:

"Nearly 10 years ago the nation, the world and I were awakened with a start, by the arrival of a new kind of enemy that ignores borders, wears no uniforms and makes no distinction between civilians and anyone else."

As someone else said, its not new for us, or a lot of people from other countries.

I have no issue with news coming in from other countries - I don't want to be ignorant of what's going on in other places. But there is a tendency to be presented with 9/11 by Americans as a world tragedy, as opposed to an American one.

The only world tragedy of 9/11 is that its now almost acceptable in a number of places to turn around to a regular Muslim and start accusing them of all sorts of ridiculous shit.

 

[Dastardly]

If I said that for me, personally, it was gratifying to see Americans suffer. That it was emotionally relieving, and a sign of more good things to come. That it would be a start of my personal restoration - how would you have reacted?

I'd take issue with it, because I'm an American. The difference here is that you are directing hatred directly toward another group. "I'm glad a bunch of Americans died," is very different from, "We're glad they finally stopped this man."

You're not bin Laden, so you can't take it personally. Sorry. We're not saying, "Wow, we're sure glad there's a few more dead Muslims out there." It's about him, because of what he did. And we're glad he was stopped. If he was caught, that'd be fine, too. Would we be celebrating just as hard? I would, but it's impossible to know about others since it can never happen that way.

Just because I'm not prepared to sit here and cry over every single child that starves to death around the world doesn't mean I'm not allowed to mourn for a loved one lost in the 9/11 attack. That doesn't make me narrow-minded. It makes me sane.

 

[Falseprophet]

Do I think American foreign policy is partially responsible for OBL and Al-Qaeda's existence in the first place [http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Second-Consequences-American-Empire/dp/0805075593/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1304439165&sr=8-2]? Yes. Do I think the current overreaction of NATO is just sowing the seeds for more of the same. Yes. Does that mean I'm not glad to see the end of a mass-murderer who laughed at the deaths of innocents? No. I'm very glad he's gone and I really hope this isn't a ruse.

Osama Bin Laden was responsible for not only the deaths of thousands on Sept. 11, but as many as three million Afghans, and he was a figurehead for ultraconservative movements in muslim countries all around the globe, many of whom are responsible for brutal acts in their own countries.

Three million? Can you clarify your source on that? I'm not sure how the leader of a couple hundred zealots with no army, state or weapons of mass destruction could be responsible for that many deaths.