Editor's Note: Better Than Before

[Baradiel]

I'm genuinely getting close to vomiting from the sheer amount of patriotic adulation from most Americans.

"A guy who made videos and recruited for a terrorist organisation is dead! OO RAH!"

His death will probably rank up the attacks, for one thing. For another, he likely didn't have too much power over al-Qaeda any more. There have been several attacks which are believed to have not been sanctioned by him.

A third thing, and probably most important, is that you can't kill an IDEA . The fact that American commandos dropped in and executed one of the most influential people in the Middle East and beyond is NOT going to solve the lingering problem that America is facing; it has alienated the entire world. If anything, usurping a country's sovereignty, by conducting an overt military exercise, just heightens anti-Americanism, for good reason.

Yes, those people who died during the 11th September attacks may have been innocent, but the USA brought those attacks on itself.

And... release the flames!

 

[Sikachu]

Thanks for this puff-piece of American propaganda in the place of some games journalism. It's really what I come to The Escapist for.

 

[John Funk]

Do I think American foreign policy is partially responsible for OBL and Al-Qaeda's existence in the first place [http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Second-Consequences-American-Empire/dp/0805075593/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1304439165&sr=8-2]? Yes. Do I think the current overreaction of NATO is just sowing the seeds for more of the same. Yes. Does that mean I'm not glad to see the end of a mass-murderer who laughed at the deaths of innocents? No. I'm very glad he's gone and I really hope this isn't a ruse.

Osama Bin Laden was responsible for not only the deaths of thousands on Sept. 11, but as many as three million Afghans, and he was a figurehead for ultraconservative movements in muslim countries all around the globe, many of whom are responsible for brutal acts in their own countries.

Three million? Can you clarify your source on that? I'm not sure how the leader of a couple hundred zealots with no army, state or weapons of mass destruction could be responsible for that many deaths.

Source is a Kuwaiti friend who studies the history and literature of the region, I can ask her to clarify but I believe she's talking about the violence in Afghanistan under the Taliban, which was supported and funded in part by Bin Laden.

 

[Dastardly]

I was referring more to:

"Nearly 10 years ago the nation, the world and I were awakened with a start, by the arrival of a new kind of enemy that ignores borders, wears no uniforms and makes no distinction between civilians and anyone else."

As someone else said, its not new for us, or a lot of people from other countries.

I have no issue with news coming in from other countries - I don't want to be ignorant of what's going on in other places. But there is a tendency to be presented with 9/11 by Americans as a world tragedy, as opposed to an American one.

The only world tragedy of 9/11 is that its now almost acceptable in a number of places to turn around to a regular Muslim and start accusing them of all sorts of ridiculous shit.

It's rhetoric, man. But also there's some truth to it.

Yeah, there's been terrorist in-fighting for thousands of years. But this wasn't within a nation, and neither was it a revolt against an occupying nation. This was reaching across the ocean to smack one of the world's leading military powers in the chops. Sorry, but people take notice of things like that.

Not because "it's America." But because it was an ambitious attack against a military superpower across an ocean, on their home turf. Terrorism didn't seem quite so global before. Again, that's not to say it was happening everywhere before, but that things tended to stay pretty local. The IRA wasn't setting off car bombs in Japan. The Palestinians weren't suicide bombing Canada.

It didn't introduce "terrorism" as a concept. But it did mark a major expansion of terrorism into a global enterprise. Like it or not, it changed the game more than just a little.

 

[John Funk]

Thanks for this puff-piece of American propaganda in the place of some games journalism. It's really what I come to The Escapist for.

A.) Did you actually read it?

"Past the days on end spent obsessively watching news in order to make some sense of this tragedy. Past the appearance of soldiers armed with automatic weapons in America's airports. Past the creation of an agency that, in practice, exerts more terror on the daily lives of Americans than Bin Laden ever could. Past the re-election of one of the most controversial presidents in our history. Past two wars fought seemingly without end."

"I know the fighting all over the world will continue. I know that our government's near-treasonous overreaction to the threats will not immediately cease."

Yeah, that's really a puff-piece of pro-American propaganda, gee whiz.

B.) Grow up. Nobody forced you to sit and read the whole thing (Though maybe they should have).

I'm genuinely getting close to vomiting from the sheer amount of patriotic adulation from most Americans.

"A guy who made videos and recruited for a terrorist organisation is dead! OO RAH!"

His death will probably rank up the attacks, for one thing. For another, he likely didn't have too much power over al-Qaeda any more. There have been several attacks which are believed to have not been sanctioned by him.

A third thing, and probably most important, is that you can't kill an IDEA . The fact that American commandos dropped in and executed one of the most influential people in the Middle East and beyond is NOT going to solve the lingering problem that America is facing; it has alienated the entire world. If anything, usurping a country's sovereignty, by conducting an overt military exercise, just heightens anti-Americanism, for good reason.

Yes, those people who died during the 11th September attacks may have been innocent, but the USA brought those attacks on itself.

And... release the flames!

See what I said above. Please take a moment to genuinely read through the article and parse what is being said.

 

[JDKJ]

The way that Americans are reacting to his death reminds me the people who celebrated the Sept 11 attacks.

And then they try and dress it up with words like peace and justice and whatnot. If you feel that you must celebrate violent revenge and the death of an enemy then by all means do so. I can understand that. I've done it myself, albeit on a much smaller scale. It's what people do. But don't try to pretend that it's any more than that.

Frankly, the whole damned affair leaves me feeling mildly disgusted.

Osama Bin Laden was responsible for not only the deaths of thousands on Sept. 11, but as many as three million Afghans, and he was a figurehead for ultraconservative movements in muslim countries all around the globe, many of whom are responsible for brutal acts in their own countries.

It ain't just the West that's glad he's gone, is my meaning. The world is a better place without him. And one can be happy that the man is dead and not approve of the changes that happened over the ten years as a result of the hunt.

Also, for people who lost a friend or family member in the Sept. 11 attacks, this is important closure. It may be nothing more than symbolism, but symbolism is sometimes important.

But if you walk over to the other side of the fence and look back, you can just as easily -- and as reasonably -- say that George W. Bush was responsible for not only the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, many of those civilian non-combatants, but also close to five thousand US servicemen and servicewomen in a war he started and premised on what ultimately turned out to be pure disinformation. During his presidency, he was seen by many outside of America as a figurehead representing America's global neo-colonialism and the concomitant oppression and repression of peoples and governments that do not neatly fit within their sense of the way the world should be ordered.

If Bush were to be run over and killed by a Greyhound bus today, there'd be much dancing in the streets of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, and a host of other countries. Would you see that event as cause for celebration? Could you understand why others would? Does anything justify the celebrating?

 

[John Funk]

The way that Americans are reacting to his death reminds me the people who celebrated the Sept 11 attacks.

And then they try and dress it up with words like peace and justice and whatnot. If you feel that you must celebrate violent revenge and the death of an enemy then by all means do so. I can understand that. I've done it myself, albeit on a much smaller scale. It's what people do. But don't try to pretend that it's any more than that.

Frankly, the whole damned affair leaves me feeling mildly disgusted.

Osama Bin Laden was responsible for not only the deaths of thousands on Sept. 11, but as many as three million Afghans, and he was a figurehead for ultraconservative movements in muslim countries all around the globe, many of whom are responsible for brutal acts in their own countries.

It ain't just the West that's glad he's gone, is my meaning. The world is a better place without him. And one can be happy that the man is dead and not approve of the changes that happened over the ten years as a result of the hunt.

Also, for people who lost a friend or family member in the Sept. 11 attacks, this is important closure. It may be nothing more than symbolism, but symbolism is sometimes important.

But if you walk over to the other side of the fence and look back, you can just as easily -- and as reasonably -- say that George W. Bush was responsible for not only the deaths of hundreds of thousands Iraqis, many of those civilian non-combatants, but also close to five thousand US servicemen and servicewomen in a war he started and premised on what ultimately turned out to be pure disinformation. During his presidency, he was seen by many outside of America as a figurehead representing America's global neo-colonialism and the concomitant oppression and repression of peoples and governments that do not neatly fit within their sense of the way the world should be ordered.

If Bush were to be run over and killed by a Greyhound bus today, there'd be much dancing in the streets of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, and a host of other countries. Would you see that event as cause for celebration? Could you understand why others would? Does anything justify the celebrating?

I'm not denying that. As I said, you can be glad that Bin Laden is gone without approving the actions undertaken by the American government - in our borders and abroad - in the hunt.

Does one wrong justify another wrong? Probably not. But really, dastardly is doing a better job arguing the point than I could ever be doing.

 

[JDKJ]

Do I think American foreign policy is partially responsible for OBL and Al-Qaeda's existence in the first place [http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Second-Consequences-American-Empire/dp/0805075593/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1304439165&sr=8-2]? Yes. Do I think the current overreaction of NATO is just sowing the seeds for more of the same. Yes. Does that mean I'm not glad to see the end of a mass-murderer who laughed at the deaths of innocents? No. I'm very glad he's gone and I really hope this isn't a ruse.

Osama Bin Laden was responsible for not only the deaths of thousands on Sept. 11, but as many as three million Afghans, and he was a figurehead for ultraconservative movements in muslim countries all around the globe, many of whom are responsible for brutal acts in their own countries.

Three million? Can you clarify your source on that? I'm not sure how the leader of a couple hundred zealots with no army, state or weapons of mass destruction could be responsible for that many deaths.

Source is a Kuwaiti friend who studies the history and literature of the region, I can ask her to clarify but I believe she's talking about the violence in Afghanistan under the Taliban, which was supported and funded in part by Bin Laden.

The Taliban in Afghanistan probably get more of their funding from the Pakistani government, particularly the Pakistani secret police, than they do from al-Qaida. And I'd imagine that a significant part of that funding is made possible by the $3 billion in aid the American government gives to the Pakistani government every year.

 

[Baradiel]

Thanks for this puff-piece of American propaganda in the place of some games journalism. It's really what I come to The Escapist for.

A.) Did you actually read it?

"Past the days on end spent obsessively watching news in order to make some sense of this tragedy. Past the appearance of soldiers armed with automatic weapons in America's airports. Past the creation of an agency that, in practice, exerts more terror on the daily lives of Americans than Bin Laden ever could. Past the re-election of one of the most controversial presidents in our history. Past two wars fought seemingly without end."

"I know the fighting all over the world will continue. I know that our government's near-treasonous overreaction to the threats will not immediately cease."

Yeah, that's really a puff-piece of pro-American propaganda, gee whiz.

B.) Grow up. Nobody forced you to sit and read the whole thing (Though maybe they should have).

I'm genuinely getting close to vomiting from the sheer amount of patriotic adulation from most Americans.

"A guy who made videos and recruited for a terrorist organisation is dead! OO RAH!"

His death will probably rank up the attacks, for one thing. For another, he likely didn't have too much power over al-Qaeda any more. There have been several attacks which are believed to have not been sanctioned by him.

A third thing, and probably most important, is that you can't kill an IDEA . The fact that American commandos dropped in and executed one of the most influential people in the Middle East and beyond is NOT going to solve the lingering problem that America is facing; it has alienated the entire world. If anything, usurping a country's sovereignty, by conducting an overt military exercise, just heightens anti-Americanism, for good reason.

Yes, those people who died during the 11th September attacks may have been innocent, but the USA brought those attacks on itself.

And... release the flames!

See what I said above. Please take a moment to genuinely read through the article and parse what is being said.

I 'genuinely read through the article'. I never wrote anything that disgreed with your article, except perhaps my first comment (which is from my own experience of Bin Ladens death).

True, you might not be as exuberant as the people on the streets, partying away like its New Years Eve, and you do state that you realise that the world is not instantly free from terrorism, but you also say "Nearly 10 years ago the nation, the world and I were awakened with a start,". As someone else has already stated in this thread, 9/11 was an American tragedy. It was terrible. I am not saying it wasn't. No one sane is going to debate that.

Apart from my first statement, nearly everything else I've written agrees, or at least is not linked, to your article. You say that "I know the fighting all over the world will continue." and I said that this will likely increase attacks, at least temporarily. I then backed up that point by saying that Bin Laden probably had very little control over the day-to-day running of al-Qaeda. His death will not stop the organisation.

My third point is my opinion, but it is an opinion founded on my own studies of the past century and America's role in events. Bin Laden was a figurehead, but the rest of the ship is still there, and it will be repaired.

 

[John Funk]

Thanks for this puff-piece of American propaganda in the place of some games journalism. It's really what I come to The Escapist for.

A.) Did you actually read it?

"Past the days on end spent obsessively watching news in order to make some sense of this tragedy. Past the appearance of soldiers armed with automatic weapons in America's airports. Past the creation of an agency that, in practice, exerts more terror on the daily lives of Americans than Bin Laden ever could. Past the re-election of one of the most controversial presidents in our history. Past two wars fought seemingly without end."

"I know the fighting all over the world will continue. I know that our government's near-treasonous overreaction to the threats will not immediately cease."

Yeah, that's really a puff-piece of pro-American propaganda, gee whiz.

B.) Grow up. Nobody forced you to sit and read the whole thing (Though maybe they should have).

I'm genuinely getting close to vomiting from the sheer amount of patriotic adulation from most Americans.

"A guy who made videos and recruited for a terrorist organisation is dead! OO RAH!"

His death will probably rank up the attacks, for one thing. For another, he likely didn't have too much power over al-Qaeda any more. There have been several attacks which are believed to have not been sanctioned by him.

A third thing, and probably most important, is that you can't kill an IDEA . The fact that American commandos dropped in and executed one of the most influential people in the Middle East and beyond is NOT going to solve the lingering problem that America is facing; it has alienated the entire world. If anything, usurping a country's sovereignty, by conducting an overt military exercise, just heightens anti-Americanism, for good reason.

Yes, those people who died during the 11th September attacks may have been innocent, but the USA brought those attacks on itself.

And... release the flames!

See what I said above. Please take a moment to genuinely read through the article and parse what is being said.

I 'genuinely read through the article'. I never wrote anything that disgreed with your article, except perhaps my first comment (which is from my own experience of Bin Ladens death).

True, you might not be as exuberant as the people on the streets, partying away like its New Years Eve, and you do state that you realise that the world is not instantly free from terrorism, but you also say "Nearly 10 years ago the nation, the world and I were awakened with a start,". As someone else has already stated in this thread, 9/11 was an American tragedy. It was terrible. I am not saying it wasn't. No one sane is going to debate that.

Apart from my first statement, nearly everything else I've written agrees, or at least is not linked, to your article. You say that "I know the fighting all over the world will continue." and I said that this will likely increase attacks, at least temporarily. I then backed up that point by saying that Bin Laden probably had very little control over the day-to-day running of al-Qaeda.

My third point is my opinion, but it is an opinion founded on my own studies of the past century and America's role in events. Bin Laden was a figurehead, but the rest of the ship is still there, and it will be repaired.

Russ wrote it, not me.

 

[Baradiel]

Thanks for this puff-piece of American propaganda in the place of some games journalism. It's really what I come to The Escapist for.

A.) Did you actually read it?

"Past the days on end spent obsessively watching news in order to make some sense of this tragedy. Past the appearance of soldiers armed with automatic weapons in America's airports. Past the creation of an agency that, in practice, exerts more terror on the daily lives of Americans than Bin Laden ever could. Past the re-election of one of the most controversial presidents in our history. Past two wars fought seemingly without end."

"I know the fighting all over the world will continue. I know that our government's near-treasonous overreaction to the threats will not immediately cease."

Yeah, that's really a puff-piece of pro-American propaganda, gee whiz.

B.) Grow up. Nobody forced you to sit and read the whole thing (Though maybe they should have).

I'm genuinely getting close to vomiting from the sheer amount of patriotic adulation from most Americans.

"A guy who made videos and recruited for a terrorist organisation is dead! OO RAH!"

His death will probably rank up the attacks, for one thing. For another, he likely didn't have too much power over al-Qaeda any more. There have been several attacks which are believed to have not been sanctioned by him.

A third thing, and probably most important, is that you can't kill an IDEA . The fact that American commandos dropped in and executed one of the most influential people in the Middle East and beyond is NOT going to solve the lingering problem that America is facing; it has alienated the entire world. If anything, usurping a country's sovereignty, by conducting an overt military exercise, just heightens anti-Americanism, for good reason.

Yes, those people who died during the 11th September attacks may have been innocent, but the USA brought those attacks on itself.

And... release the flames!

See what I said above. Please take a moment to genuinely read through the article and parse what is being said.

I 'genuinely read through the article'. I never wrote anything that disgreed with your article, except perhaps my first comment (which is from my own experience of Bin Ladens death).

True, you might not be as exuberant as the people on the streets, partying away like its New Years Eve, and you do state that you realise that the world is not instantly free from terrorism, but you also say "Nearly 10 years ago the nation, the world and I were awakened with a start,". As someone else has already stated in this thread, 9/11 was an American tragedy. It was terrible. I am not saying it wasn't. No one sane is going to debate that.

Apart from my first statement, nearly everything else I've written agrees, or at least is not linked, to your article. You say that "I know the fighting all over the world will continue." and I said that this will likely increase attacks, at least temporarily. I then backed up that point by saying that Bin Laden probably had very little control over the day-to-day running of al-Qaeda.

My third point is my opinion, but it is an opinion founded on my own studies of the past century and America's role in events. Bin Laden was a figurehead, but the rest of the ship is still there, and it will be repaired.

Russ wrote it, not me.

So he did. My mistake.

 

[nipsen]

I'd take issue with it, because I'm an American. The difference here is that you are directing hatred directly toward another group. "I'm glad a bunch of Americans died," is very different from, "We're glad they finally stopped this man."

You're not bin Laden, so you can't take it personally.

All right. Let's change "Americans" for George W. Bush, then. Happy now? Or would you like to turn me in to Homeland Security?

The point is why you find his death so significant. Either it's a politically significant death, and it's tasteless endorsement of assassination for the sake of political convenience. There's no practical result following this. There's not even a tenuous benefit for anyone apart from revenge. Or as some of you feel the need to state so loudly - and even demand empathy for - there's mostly just closure.

Or else you're personally invested in the narrative without understanding it's political significance. Which again is tasteless endorsement of killing.

In either case, it's tasteless.

Let's take a small roundabout look at this, though. How does the US set itself up for politically significant assassinations in the future, now that they prove how easily affected public opinion is when it comes to events like these? What does that signal when it comes to how the US will deal with international relations in the future? Obviously it's a red cloth to any crazy with an agenda out there. But hey - you're just personally gratified that the Witch is dead, and it's not like you're /demanding/ anyone to celebrate with you, is it.

Again - I'm having a hard time accepting the fact that anyone can seriously argue that they experience emotional relief at the death of another person. If, of course, Osama actually did live next door - or he was your aunt, etc. - then I could understand it. I could see how it would have hung over you.

But Osama doesn't live in your neighbourhood, now does he? He's on the opposite end of the world, and was killed by some marine who just is doing his job. Nothing heroic about pulling the trigger like that, and you sure as hell don't feel tough when you know you've fired a bullet that wounded and maybe killed someone else. Trust me on this.

So how do you rationalise it? Without direct personal involvement? That's disturbing on it's own, and contingent upon that political environment that cannot be spoken of.

But then to /celebrate/ it? Celebrate the emotional relief a random death causes, because that person is tied up so closely to your emotional state?

It's not like I can't sympathise with the pressure caused by the terrible political environment in the US lately. Nevertheless - it's a question of perspective. And it's a matter of personal choice involved with allowing yourself to end up hating a foreigner on the opposite end of the world that badly.

 

[funguy2121]

Editor's Note: Better Than Before

Russ Pitts puts games aside for a moment to take stock of a momentous event: the death of Osama Bin Laden.

Read Full Article

Nearly 10 years ago the nation, the world and I were awakened with a start, by the arrival of a new kind of enemy that ignores borders, wears no uniforms and makes no distinction between civilians and anyone else

I don't mean to sound like an utter prick BUT the WORLD did not awaken to that threat, America did. The rest of the world, my country included, have suffered at the hands of these organizations for a very long time.

I make no attempt to downplay the scale of 9/11, I DO resent the implication that until it happened to America it wasn't happening.

EDIT: To clarify to those who will willyfully misunderstand this. I refer to England suffering at the hands of the IRA, not England being attacked by Al-Queda...

I call it vantage point bias. I don't think that Pitts meant any offense. That day woke me up (somethin' fierce, as we say in Texas when we're trying to sound quaint). The analogy I use is one of my friends who's a few years younger and has parents who are positively loaded. He was never going to join the family business, so he had to make his own way in the world, and at some point, if he wasn't making good decisions, he was going to get cut off. So, try as his parents did to shelter him from some of life's grimmer realities, violent disillusionment was inevitable. That is exactly like America joining the rest of the world as victims of terrorism. We're no longer invincible (not that it wasn't an illusion in the first place).

 

[DaJoW]

this epic chapter in the lives of all free men

This sounds a lot like when people say that WW2 started in 1941. It changed politics... in the US. It changed lives... in the US (and the countries it invaded). It did not have that huge an effect on the rest of "all free men" past the first week or so.

 

[Irridium]

I think this is way more of a thing for just Americans than Americans realise.

Like that awful speech in Independence Day. Talk about cringe - no amount of Will Smith can balance that out.

As for Bin Laden... eh. What it seems they've done is killed the guy who knew the most about all that was going on, but not the guy who was the single pin holding the entire cause together (because there isn't one). Not much of a victory.

Any victory that increases morale in a nations citizens and its troops, is a large victory. Morale is one of the main things you need to win wars. Its in the top 3, at least.

 

[Woodsey]

I think this is way more of a thing for just Americans than Americans realise.

Like that awful speech in Independence Day. Talk about cringe - no amount of Will Smith can balance that out.

As for Bin Laden... eh. What it seems they've done is killed the guy who knew the most about all that was going on, but not the guy who was the single pin holding the entire cause together (because there isn't one). Not much of a victory.

Any victory that increases moral in a nations citizens and its troops, is a large victory. Moral is one of the main things you need to win wars. Its in the top 3, at least.

We'll have to disagree on that one. Any 'victory' that causes your citizens to act more like the people they're at war with is not a victory.

 

[StrixMaxima]

To go a bit further, even, the victory is that bin Laden has been stopped. The fact that he was killed is as unfortunate as any death, no matter how necessary it may have been. Death isn't what we're celebrating.

We're celebrating that he was stopped, not how he was stopped.

This is an interesting view, but the most flawed one, I think. He was not stopped. He was killed, yes. But he was given the tools to create a huge legacy and following, and the hate lesson he so vehemently preached will yet cost the lives of many, many, MANY more people on both sides of the fence.

The personal vendetta against him is fulfilled. But it was too little, too expensive, too illogical, too bloody, and too late. He'll sadly be transformed into a martyr, sea funeral notwithstanding, and will continue to haunt the US in different guises.

 

[nukethetuna]

I enjoyed this just because it helped me to understand a perspective that I can't possibly relate to, whether or not I agree with what was written.

 

[Hunter.Wolf]

About that .. while i do consider Taliban to be a totalitarian tyrannical regime and Al Qaeda to be a group of freedom fighters turned terrorists (freedom fighters when they fought USSR invasion with the help of the CIA but turned terrorists for a lot of different reasons, will come to that later) i don't think killing Osama Bin Laden in this blunt way solves anything .. it will only make things worse as Al Qaeda will now be more vigilant and out for blood/revenge ... killing him only fuels the bloody cycle of revenge.

Actually while Osama was on the run for 10 years the other Al Qaeda leaders probably were the ones in direct control of all operations considering how difficult it was to contact him ... so technically killing him won't stop Al Qeda from targeting Pakistani targets (becasue he was killed in Pakistan) and American citizens interests around the world .. that's not something good and definitely not worth celebrating at all.

And while Osama was once a friend of the USA and worked hand in hand with CIA to kick the USSR invaders from Afghanistan he surely turned into a terrorist later on .. as for why (which i'm sure many won't bother but it is really important to know so as not to keep repeating the same mistakes the created him) .. part of the reasons are due to Osama himself and the other part is related to USA foreign policy .. as for Osama's part .. just a look at Taliban Regime will tell the whole story ... being a Muslim myself i considered them to be extremely fundamentalist and extremist Muslims who use the holy texts of Islam in the worst way possible to oppress and control their people .. this fundamentalist mindset is usually very stubborn and once set on something it rarely changes .. maybe that helped USA defeat USSR early on .. but it later back fired when Osama decided to view USA as the devil and wage war against it .. that's his part of the problem.

USA part is much more complicated, major reason is USA foreign policy (which mostly consists of bullying weaker countries and going around guns blazing regardless of what the international community or country itself think .. killing Osama was one example of that as it was done completely without informing Pakistani government at all)... i can't pinpoint the exact breaking point in which Osama started considering USA a sworn enemy instead of a powerful ally ... something must have happened between Osama and the CIA to prompt so much hate for USA (aside from his religious fundamentalist mindset) .. he also claimed he supported the Palestinian cause but he never did anything to support it .. if anything his actions ruined the image of Muslims and Palestinians more than any of their enemies hoped to do.

Yeah Osama in the past dozen of years was a terrorist and killed not only American and European citizens but countless Muslims in terrorist operations all around Muslim countries (done directly by Al Qaeda or other copycat terrorist groups that copy their mindset) .. problem is killing him will only make things worse not better .. especially with the weak security in Arabian countries going through revolutions Al Qaeda could work with ease ... the next man in command of Al Qaeda "El Zawahari" is already spewing revenge threats.

The Next Osama Ben Laden will be making his debut soon .. watch out for this guy.

I think capturing Osama alive and handing him over to an international court/jury to judge him and eventually execute him for plotting and ordering mass murder would have been a much better choice IMO.