Education = Intelligence? Hardly.

[surg3n]

I don't believe IQ tests accurately measure anything other than the ability to do IQ tests. I mean, I can see how the pattern recognition stuff might reveal good problem solving intellect, but the number stuff is all superficial. What goes next in this sequence? 1, 4 ,7, 9, 14, 25... type questions rely on the participants skill at answering these pointless questions. I would say that on paper I'm above average, I do well on IQ tests, and a lot of people would classify me as smart.

But my writing isn't very good, it takes me ages to learn math techniques, in fact it takes me ages to learn anything through standard means. For instance I only have a standard grade maths education, yet I taught myself to program before I even knew what algebra was. I think that part of it might be that I don't see the point in learning what everyone else knows, I'd rather teach myself something unique than learn a valuable skill that 100,000 people already have.

Really, I would say that the more learned someone is, the less able they are to learn something completely new - if it doesn't fit into their ruleset, then they deny it as much as I can deny un-proven physics theories, for instance. Higher education is largely about teaching more effective problem solving techniques, but if you already know how to solve a problem, then it stops being a problem... and people stop being problem solvers, and start being robots. No offense to people with or in, higher education - but my point is that it seems these days that a degree is something you work towards, put in enough time and it's yours. It doesn't necesserily denote intellect, and in my opinion it falls short of highlighting good problem solvers, just good problem solving techniques.

Consider a real genius, like Hawkings, or Einstein - now in that sort of ball park, name 1 genius who is comparable, even remotely. I'm not talking about some 8 year old with a degree and a mind conditioned to solve one particular type of problem. I'm more intruiged by the trailblazers myself - people who solved problems before the problem solving techniques were established. There aren't any new geniuses, just a lot of paper-clever people using standard systems, that anyone could learn given enough time.

Personally, I think education as a whole has to change, it has to start revealing people with more to offer the world, a degree is not enough when every other person has one. We need to find inventive and truly smart people, not just people who can stick in college/uni for 4 years. What can we possibly learn about the future, by regurgitating the past.

 

[Booze Zombie]

To me, intelligentce refers to ability to contemplate, reflect and simply think. Oddly, I've met few devoid of this ability...

 

[Griffolion]

"Intelligence" is quite a mercurial concept, and IQ tests do anything BUT measure it. There are seven major intelligences that we all have in different measures based on our genetics and upbringing. But I generally think it's pointless trying to get a general "intelligence" measure anyway as it really says nothing because it's so broad.

 

[Elementary - Dear Watson]

I made a point to point out in the other thread that education and intelligence were seperate! Just look at some of the guys and girls coming out of oxbridge... Some of them really do have no ommon sense what so ever... They over think simple things, and lack the capability to complete anything that doesn't require reading a book and reproducing it on paper!

 

[Rallus]

I have no need to prove myself. I haven't taken an IQ test so I might be "Unintelligent", but that's who I am and I'm fine with that. I don't understand how people find the need to try to prove themselves more intelligent than others and some who will spout their grades/IQ score at every argument to further prove their facts of questionable status. You are who you are, nothing will change that, so why compare yourself to others when they are nowhere near as important in your life as you are?

 

[The Abhorrent]

In my experience, people who are very "intelligent" or can tell you the absolute mass of a cobalt atom suspended in the interior of a black hole about to reach criticality while systematically being fired on by a high velocity field of......magic, often have no common sense or clue as to the real world.

I can certainly confirm the fact that many who are deeply entrenched in their field of study can be surprisingly ignorant about everyday issues, and to be quite honest I'm a fairly terrible offender when it comes to that. But at least I'm not too proud to deny that I make any mistakes, which seems to give me a bit of an edge when it comes to learning. As many have stated already, what makes a person "smart" isn't so much having knowledge as it is the ability to acquire and apply it.

Case in point, I lived with a materials engineering master (he was doing his doctorate at the time), he knew all about materials, resistances, corrosions, weights, techno-blah, but when it came to washing the plastic shower curtain, he put it in the machine......on a 60 degree C wash and an hours drying cycle, then wondered what had gone wrong.

And this example is downright hilarious, especially once the guy's field of study is taken into account.... well, if my guess about the plastic melting is correct. The melting point is a basic property of the material, nothing too complicated. Come to think of it, I don't recall if plastics (aside from synthetic fibers) ever being machine washed; I'm not entirely sure for the reason that is, but again the guess is it melts in the heat (or something else no pretty). Making the mistake in the first place is one thing (sometimes one has to learn the hard way), but he should've been able to figure out what that mistake was by simple observation... or maybe he was just in shock at what had happened, and his brain had yet to "restart".

Either way, I would suspect this particular individual was one who had minimal field experience (if any at all) before going onto his post-graduate degrees. I'm studying civil engineering myself, and one of the most basic lessons I've gained in the little bit of field experience I got through various summer jobs is that practicality needs to be taken into account; simple problems have simple solutions, and quite often the precision you need in the real world is far less than what you can get in the theory.

Which brings me to a critical point -- overcomplicating something does NOT make you smart. If anything, it implies the opposite. In many advanced fields, a high degree of complexity may be required; but any more complexity than is necessary is counter-productive. Just as a basic example, my structural design professor gave the class a list "tips" for how to design connections between steel members in a building; one of the first was to never have more than two different types of bolts on a project. Using a lot of different bolts may make the project more efficient, but everything can break down (perhaps even literally) when the guy who actually places the bolts (often an average joe) is staring at 50 different bolts and has no idea about which one he should be using. Mistakes are going to happen (both technical and non-technical), so you have to take measures to minimize the chances of that happening; and almost always, complicating the matter is not the solution.

It's actually kinda funny how many of the principles of engineering design can actually be summarized as "idiot-proofing", in regards to both for the engineer and the general populace.

 

[basksl]

The tests that require education are just cheap quick tests for the public, real IQ tests test your capabilities. Wich are more about how well you can learn and examine things.

 

[surg3n]

Consider a real genius, like Hawkings, or Einstein - now in that sort of ball park, name 1 genius who is comparable, even remotely.

Leonardo Da Vinci.

Yup, don't get much more trailblazing than Da Vinci... I should really have said 'in modern times' though.

 

[michael87cn]

I'm getting rather sick of the "Do you think you are more intelligent than the average?"-topics that pop up every now and then. How do you people measure intelligence? Is it IQ tests? I doubt it, especially since IQ-tests seem to point more at "you're good at IQ-tests" than "You're intelligent!".
No, what people assume is "intelligence", and what they mean when they say so, is most often education.
That's right. We have very few ways of effectively measuring how smart someone is, especially when you've only encountered them a few times, so education, or how "smart" they sound, is what we say when we mean "He's intelligent".
Or, that's how I see it.

What do you think? Do you really think you're more "intelligent" than the average, or are you just better educated? And if you are more "intelligent" than average, what proof do you have of it? Do you even know how to empirically test such a thing?

Edit:

There are a few different words that are pretty much used as synonyms for each other because of the connotations they draw.

There are different kinds of intelligence, there is no one definition of it and everyone has some measure of intellect that they find an affinity with. Whether it be for building a car engine to crunching mad maths to unravel the secrets of the universe.

You are right that the most common understanding of intelligence could probably be more aptly referred to as being learned.

Often a natural aptitude for acquiring knowledge and being learned go hand in hand. That's when you get insightful and sharp individuals like Christopher Hitchens. I would call him both intelligent and learned.

Then you get people like Hawking and Einstein. And although neither did poorly in school, their intelligence doesn't necessarily come from an aptitude for picking up facts in books or even have insightful opinions about the inner workings of politics etc. It comes directly from how their mind works. How they solve puzzles.

But like I said, intelligence isn't restricted to a few things. You can be a good puzzle solver, astute with numbers. You might take one look at a clump of metal and understand how it can make 4 wheels and a body do 200mph. It might be that you can pick up a brush and some slap some colour on a canvas leaving behind a masterpiece. Intelligence isn't solely judged by the words you know or the piece of paper you got for memorising facts. Even if people mostly assume it is.

Obviously not everybody is equally intelligent. Even within their own speciality. The world simply isn't that fair. But I do believer everybody has intelligence in some form or another.

I'v quoted this man in an Edit because he had a nice synopsis of my point, which spares me the energy of writing it myself.


Thanks for the input, Abandon.

On that note, I'm quite tired of Jobs that don't require diplomas, requiring diplomas. For example, you have to pay good money and attend years of college to become a kindergarten teacher, even though a 10 year old could teach a class of 5 year olds the alphabet. It's a ridiculous system that is being used as a means to PROFIT from the rich and unfortunately keep the poor working in "their" jobs.

When a person is born without willing or able parents, they have to struggle from the bottom wrung of this world, and steps are in place that KEEP said people on the bottom wrung.

If you aren't born into a household that OWNS a paid off home, you are stuck paying extremely high mortgage/rent bills every month that keep you living paycheck to paycheck for eternity. You can go out and get even further into debt, securing the fact that you'll always be hassled and owe people money, in effect gambling your life away for a CHANCE at becoming successful by getting loans for 'college education'. . . BUT its a gamble. Who wants to gamble with their life? No one does... but many have to, and even far more people choose not to, and simply have to accept that they are impoverished and poor.

Even the most uneducated human being on the planet could do MANY of the jobs requiring money-sucking-diplomas, if they were just shown how to perform the job.

What a horrible world we live in, where money is the only important thing to anybody but the ones who don't have it.

What a horrible world no longer sustaining life to those who cannot produce green paper and copper coins. The cold, dead streets suck the life from the homeless as the prosperous people walk by, their chins in the air and their heads in the clouds.

 

[latiasracer]

I agree with this.

One of my friends *ahem* is in all top classes, Pulling strait A's pretty much everytime.

Im....Average. Mostly c's, but sometimes B's if its' a good day.
And my oh my, he's as thick as shit. Ive no idea how he manages to do so well, but he really isn't that bright.


Trying to explain how a lightbulb works was agony.

 

[Realitycrash]

Even the most uneducated human being on the planet could do MANY of the jobs requiring money-sucking-diplomas, if they were just shown how to perform the job.

What a horrible world we live in, where money is the only important thing to anybody but the ones who don't have it.

What a horrible world no longer sustaining life to those who cannot produce green paper and copper coins. The cold, dead streets suck the life from the homeless as the prosperous people walk by, their chins in the air and their heads in the clouds.

Another sad truth, indeed. I'v gotten SO MANY JOBS due to contacts, jobs which usually require formal training or some sort of degree, but that any average-joe off-the-street can perform, but never gotten the chance to do, due to not having a "diploma". A classic example is in construction, where there is a lot of heavy lifting to be done (and general logistics), but unless you know someone who can get you in, you can only apply for such a job if you have an a diploma as a carpenter, or similar.
Even worse is a librarian. Takes 5 years of studies to get a "degree" as a librarian where I lvie. FIVE YEARS. And what do they do? Basically little else than understand a certain filing system and have a general knowledge of literature. I can learn that by myself in six months.
Fuck.
Right.
Off.

 

[The Night Shade]

It's impossible to know someone's intelligence from a test or school.

 

[dyre]

Who cares? This mysterious "intelligence" is nice in that everyone can claim to have it, no matter how worthless and ignorant they are, but you know what? I'll take knowledge (generally gained through education, whether from public institutions, self-instruction, or anything else) over "intelligence" any day. If I'm having a conversation with someone about something, and he knows his shit, then I don't care how "intelligent" he is. I care that he's knowledgeable and/or competent.

So maybe "intelligence" is actually some weird, immeasurable concept, but the "intelligence" that matters is knowledge and the ability to apply it, and a lot of that is gained through good education.

 

[Ieyke]

If the thinking was driving-

Intelligence is the car's power
Knowledge is the driver's skill at using the car's power
Wisdom is the driver's ability to use his skills safely and efficiently.


A person with no education and very little knowledge can be vastly more intelligent than someone who has spent decades in study.
Knowledge and education are two very different things.

Basically, intelligence is something you're born with. You can be an idiot, a genius, or most likely something dead center between them. For the most part, you can't really do anything to change this.

Knowledge is something you can accumulate and improve upon through study and experience. Everyone starts out ignorant as a child, but simply by living a person will gain knowledge, and by studying they might become highly knowledgable about a huge array of things.

Intelligence determines what you're capable of doing with your knowledge, not what knowledge you have. A two year old might be a genius, while a professor might be a bit of an idiot. It might be that this child will never learn a huge variety of information, but what he does learn he will truly master. The professor on the other hand can have a skull just jam packed full of info he only thinks he knows how to apply. Things he can recite but doesnt truly comprehend on a instinctive level.


You could have a genius with a load of knowledge and not a drop of wisdom...that's when you get a person who can and will do anything that strikes his fancy without stopping to consider the consequences., which in turn leads to disaster.
You could have a person of fairly low intelligence who's not very well educated, but has all the wisdom in the world, and maybe they'll go through life solving fundamental problems with common sense solutions. A great example is when fairly intelligent and knowledgable guys start flipping out about relationship problems and agonizing over what they should do....and the this guy with just his head full of wisdom says "talk to your girlfriend about it". Intelligence and knowledge won't help you if you don't have the sense to see simple solutions.


Thats why there's different types of "smart". Some rely on intelligence, some on knowledge, and some on wisdom.
People with all three in abundance seem to be few and far between.

 

[gazumped]

After all, we talk about some animals being 'more intelligent' than others. Do we think that dolphins go around in schools? Do we think rats hang out in science labs? Wait... you know what I mean!

Don't dolphins swim in pods?

Sorry my pedantry killed your joke.

Bad, must stop doing that.

I'm the one that should apologise, it was a terrible joke anyway. Not least because of a reference to an un-fact that I picked up from Christmas cracker jokes ("Why are dolphins so clever? Because they swim in...")

I think it's also a sign of intelligence if one is witty... *lowers head in shame*

 

[SckizoBoy]

Consider a real genius, like Hawkings, or Einstein - now in that sort of ball park, name 1 genius who is comparable, even remotely. I'm not talking about some 8 year old with a degree and a mind conditioned to solve one particular type of problem.

I find it a little amusing that you write that... the man's a theoretical physicist... a damned brilliant one, mind (and for all the scorn I pour upon him for merely being a mathematician with an excuse to call himself an applied scientist, he does have one hell of a brain between his ears). He doesn't know jack-shit about chemistry in all likelihood.

Also, it depends on your definition of 'genius'. I don't know about you, but to me, a 'genius' is an individual who has intellectual expertise and applicability to world-class standard in several distinctly different fields of study e.g.

Leonardo Da Vinci.

Or rather, any polymath... though proper polymaths these days are few and far between due to the necessity to specialise.

My favoured polymath (perhaps he is better labelled as a dilletante) is Prince Rupert of the Palatinate... known primarily for being a cavalier officer of the Royalists, but he made significant advances in metallurgy, inorganic chemistry and naval architecture... and is an oft unacknowledged founder of the RS.

Noting your request for 'geniuses of the modern age', I direct you towards Jagadish Chandra Bose... probably the last 'proper' polymath (IMO).

I agree with this so hard. My old man is an US Army Warrent Officer, Computer Programmer, Web Designer, Mechanic, Carpenter, Bee Keeper, Wheat/Hay Farmer, and has a Bach in Mathematics, Masters in Astro Physics.

Fuck I'm 26 and I'm still working on my Bach >.<

Wow... quite a laundry list of jobs your old man's had! Though for a sec I saw 'Bach' and wondered 'how does one have a (JS) Bach in Maths?!'

Anyway, love to meet him! Army NCO and beekeeper: pure awesome!

 

[Dogstile]

I wouldn't say that it would equal intelligence. Anyone who's been in a course for computing in general will know this quite well. While some people are absolutely amazing coders (and I am quite lucky to even know them) many of them cannot network for the life of them and they end up asking people like me for tutoring (which i do in exchange for said coding help).

Asking me if they were more intelligent or if i was more intelligent is nonsense, because when it comes to coding, he'll be intelligent, whereas i'll be an absolutely clueless bastard. However, if you asked the same question based on networking (by this i mean routers and such) than I would be more intelligent by far.

Intelligence for me is less of how much you know, but how well you can converse with others socially to bring up your combined knowledge, so how open minded you are. I'd say its a mark of an intelligent wo/man to be able to think about ideas with actual interest. I'd say its a mark of education to be able to apply those ideas.

 

[Sandytimeman]

Wow... quite a laundry list of jobs your old man's had! Though for a sec I saw 'Bach' and wondered 'how does one have a (JS) Bach in Maths?!'

Anyway, love to meet him! Army NCO and beekeeper: pure awesome!

Yeah, hes a really impressive guy. He just wants to do something and he does it. Though on the Warrant officer side of things my dad tells this story where he is sitting down at the mess table. And this 2nd lieutenant leans over and goes "Am I supposed to salute you?"

It's funny because technically my dad is a lower rank then him. But my dad has all silver hair, and so people seem to think he is like some big shot or just don't know exactly how a warrant officer fits into the ranking system lol.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Yeah, hes a really impressive guy. He just wants to do something and he does it. Though on the Warrant officer side of things my dad tells this story where he is sitting down at the mess table. And this 2nd lieutenant leans over and goes "Am I supposed to salute you?"

It's funny because technically my dad is a lower rank then him. But my dad has all silver hair, and so people seem to think he is like some big shot or just don't know exactly how a warrant officer fits into the ranking system lol.

LOL Well, he's sure as hell got years and experience over a 2nd Lt. Your dad could've joshed about and gone 'yeah, salute me, pipsqueak!' Not sure about now, but most junior officers had sergeants (or senior) with them to make sure they didn't fuck up, since they'd be fresh out of military academy (and yet to have a proper shave).

But what gets me is... he's a beekeeper on top of all that! Not an easy skill to learn, that...

 

[Sandytimeman]

Yeah, hes a really impressive guy. He just wants to do something and he does it. Though on the Warrant officer side of things my dad tells this story where he is sitting down at the mess table. And this 2nd lieutenant leans over and goes "Am I supposed to salute you?"

It's funny because technically my dad is a lower rank then him. But my dad has all silver hair, and so people seem to think he is like some big shot or just don't know exactly how a warrant officer fits into the ranking system lol.

LOL Well, he's sure as hell got years and experience over a 2nd Lt. Your dad could've joshed about and gone 'yeah, salute me, pipsqueak!' Not sure about now, but most junior officers had sergeants (or senior) with them to make sure they didn't fuck up, since they'd be fresh out of military academy (and yet to have a proper shave).

But what gets me is... he's a beekeeper on top of all that! Not an easy skill to learn, that...

Yeah it was kind of a family activity back in the day we had 55 hives going. Our great uncle started with 4 hives to make his own honey. And he showed my dad, who started with a hive in our backyard when we still lived in town before we moved out to the farm. After our first few harvests he kept expanding. It was really nice having access to large amount of pure honey and beeswax actually. I kinda miss that.