Elder scrolls- two steps forward, two steps back?

[SajuukKhar]

it destroys the sense of progression in gear.

Reminds me of playing the Neverwinter Nights single player story and only getting upgraded gear and weapons pretty much once per chapter with the rest of the game just being a tedious, uninteresting slaughter fest.

That's not to say that previous TES games were good about gear, but they certainly were better than Skyrim.

Actually, with Skyrim's smithing system, perk system, and enchanting system, you can pretty much make every armor as good as every other armor.

Gear should NOT be some
-Level 1 armor has 10 armor
-Level 2 armor has 20 armor
-Level 3 armor has 30 armor
and while Skyrim does follow a similar pattern in it's gear, it lets you break the pattern with smithing.

Gear should not be a progression system IMO, gear should be something you pick because you like it, which is what Skyrim moved to.

 

[Callate]

Every game has also been in some way, big or small, broken.

Daggerfall was a mess of patches, and even with them all in place it was quite possible (especially with the wall-climbing mechanic) to fall through a wall to your death.

That "cripple this, boost that" mechanic also, as I recall, made for some perverse combinations where you could give yourself extreme vulnerabilities to things you were racially immune to. It's great to have a diverse selection of options, less so when you can craft an "ideal build" that bends the rules around its little finger and gives them a whirl.

Likewise, Morrowind's magic crafting system. Permanent invisibility a few short item craftings away. And an economy so broken that a couple of secret characters who were essentially jokes were injected to buy items that no one else, anywhere, could possibly afford.

I like the Elder Scrolls games, and I can appreciate the frustration with attractive features seemingly being tossed by the wayside, but I understand that, for example, it's much easier to create an effectively scripted plot when the PC can't fly. I just wish, so much having been pruned back both to make the game more accessible to the masses and make the rules more predictable for world-crafting, that they would take the time to make a game that you didn't have to describe to your friends as, "Oh, it's a fantastic game, but..."

But if you go through this plot thread after this one, expect to have to use console commands to progress.
But if you put points into this skill path, consider them wasted.
But this particular, obvious plot thread was never actually completed by the designers.
But this NPC may go wandering off and leave you unable to complete your mission.
But this seemingly Earth-shattering event doesn't really amount to diddly-squat.
But you'll spend hours doing quests for people you wouldn't cross the street to put out if they were on fire in real life.
But you'll end up doing inane things to level up skills you never use during actual quests.

 

[beastro]

Gear should not be a progression system IMO, gear should be something you pick because you like it, which is what Skyrim moved to.

Sorry, but chain mail is inferior to plate armour and no amount of modification will change that fact.

Different types of armour should be better or worse than others, it shouldn't even just have armour as a modifier but have more varied stats with different benefits and trade offs. Darkfall had a good system where more powerful kinds of metal armour provided better physical protection, but increased your weakness to lightning based spells for example.

Really. Back in my days playing EQ MMOs were mocked for being digital barbie doll games where you dress you character out, but what you prefer in games is the very essence of that fact. You're interested in only the aesthetics of the armour, not how powerful and hard to obtain the gear actually is.

You IMO is very much yours and I've never heard anyone else prefer a system that trivializes gear progression in a game of any kind.

You should feel the sense of elation when you find a rare, powerful piece of armour or weapon that adds massively to your players ability, make them feel like they have real value, not just have you eye it to see if it looks cool to wear or not. You cannot have that is there's barely any gear to get because the game starts to feel more like a linear, Zelda type game where pieces of gear of archtypes that add unique abilities and are not one piece of the gestalt that adds to built up your characters power.

Few things in games feel better than filling out your characters gear slots in a game and seeing the stats add up and allow you to carry out the combat strategy you've formed for your character from the beginning and it's why dungeon crawlers are so beloved.

 

[Jfswift]

Hmm my experiences do far.

Morrowind. Cool visuals.. Now where was I supposed to go?
Oblivion. Really cool visuals. Horrible stat leveling system and enemy scaling was ridiculous. This game punished you if wrecked your build.
Skyrim. Combat feels more actiony and on par with Fallout with visceral details like beheading. Leveling system was very flexible and seamless, just letting you play and have fun. What I didn't care for was the game sort of herding you along. I also miss the atmosphere of Oblivion's mages guild. That place was neat (the facility near white gold tower).

 

[Wolfhowl the shadow lurker]

If something is easyer to use that means its dumbed down? somehow thats what most people think, morrwind was hardcore yeah but that does not mean it was great or the best of the them i love the elder scrolls and i do think they have been geting better however a lot of people seem to be eager to shit on them and say that if it is easy to use and get into thats awful! How dare people want to not fuck around for hours trying to kill one thing or know were the hell they should be going for this quest

 

[SajuukKhar]

Really. Back in my days playing EQ MMOs were mocked for being digital barbie doll games where you dress you character out, but what you prefer in games is the very essence of that fact. You're interested in only the aesthetics of the armour, not how powerful and hard to obtain the gear actually is.

You IMO is very much yours and I've never heard anyone else prefer a system that trivializes gear progression in a game of any kind.

I do care about an armor's stats, which is why I would never use Elven armor if I couldn't smith it to 567 armor, the armor cap. However, since I can, via the game's armor smithing system, I find it nice that my armor is both as strong as it can be, and the armor design I like most.

I have to ask how does it trivialize gear progression? gear profession exists, and using the same smithing techniques you used on your elven armor, on glass armor, would get the glass armor to max, but still above elven armor in total damage protection.

And if you think my view is weird, you have clearly never been to the Elder scrolls forums, people love finding ways to get armors to the max damage resistance cap so they an wear whatever design that they want.

People often wear low quality armor, on purpose, because they like the deisgn more, and I couldn't image the outrage of Bethesda made all forms of lower armor useless in order to keep some archaic and rigid linear gear progression system.

 

[beastro]

I have to ask how does it trivialize gear progression? gear profession exists, and using the same smithing techniques you used on your elven armor, on glass armor, would get the glass armor to max, but still above elven armor in total damage protection.

As I said, gear progression have never been a strong suit of TES games and the stats on items has always been very minimal compared to other games. It's along with everything else that minimal in TES games is why I mod them heavily to fill in that missing piece of the game as is a big thing in most major overhauls of the previous games (and the latter FO games).

And if you think my view is weird, you have clearly never been to the Elder scrolls forums, people love finding ways to get armors to the max damage resistance cap so they an wear whatever design that they want.

If people want certain armour to be good then they can actively edit it to match the progression of their gear as they progress like I do with custom armour in TES and FO games.

Novel ways to circumvent the progression are fine, but it shouldn't be the major factor in a game.

To put it in EQ terms, you could try to use Velious armour and its unique textures for as long as you possibly could, but they should eventually give way to you adopting Luclin gear and accepting its look.

If people don't like that, then the best MMO equivalent is in LOTRO where you have your gear that gives you stats and then can overlay aesthetic gear that affects your looks without interrupting the progression of the stat gear. The nearest one can get with that in a game like Skyrim is what I mentioned before, editing the armour to match the best of what you've found in the game so far.

If something is easyer to use that means its dumbed down?

Inconvenient does not always mean bad as well. As I said before, I'm starting to think that the big problem with TES games is that things change too much between installments, or at least, not the right things, but that comes down to perspective.

 

[MHR]

You lose stuff and you get stuff.

I put up with some nitpicky garbage because everything else is so good. I couldn't give a shit about quests being repetitive and predictable when it's the dungeons they send you to that are so impressive.

I don't care there are less spells. It was always always a pain dealing with 100 spells in oblivion, many of which were useless, and trying to get a more convenient spell required you to craft it yourself after a lengthy and tedious "application" process to the university.

The UI is streamlined and dumbed-down, but on the upside they're STREAMLINED and look good. Oblivion's menus were fugly and wore out their welcome quickly.

I dont care they trimmed the fat on old mechanics, because many old mechanics were stupid. Acrobatics was useless. Athletics as a core skill was also stupid. I thank the Nine they got rid of that fiddly garbage and focused more on polishing real actual interesting skills.

I dont care that Skyrim's perk leveling system is weird because it's a MAJOR improvement over Oblivion's retarded leveling system where leveling usually worked AGAINST you and you could gimp yourself if you did it wrong. Seriously, screw that.

I don't care that smithing and enchanting easily breaks the game, because I refuse to do smithing and enchanting to break my own game.

So go ahead and pick more knits. I haven't played Morrowind, but Skyrim is an overall superior game to Oblivion with both being games I enjoy very much. I find the idea silly that Bethesda games are getting worse when they're actually getting better.

 

[Syzygy23]

This was a fabulous post and you are a fabulous person.

Might be pushing it with the one spell = fifteen spells bit but otherwise can't agree more.

One of the biggest fallacies I see with gaming in general is people trying to say "well there were 10 weapons types in X games, but only 5 in this one, so its dumbed down/simplified", when in reality, those 5 weapons in the newer game, do more mechanically then the 10 weapons from past games did.

I have to disagree with you here.

How many iterations of "Swing melee weapon" and "Shoot arrow/bolt" can there possibly BE?

You either swing the sword or you don't. You can block with it if you want, but the game gives you shields that are superior.

 

[NeutralDrow]

This was a fabulous post and you are a fabulous person.

Might be pushing it with the one spell = fifteen spells bit but otherwise can't agree more.

One of the biggest fallacies I see with gaming in general is people trying to say "well there were 10 weapons types in X games, but only 5 in this one, so its dumbed down/simplified", when in reality, those 5 weapons in the newer game, do more mechanically then the 10 weapons from past games did.

I have to disagree with you here.

How many iterations of "Swing melee weapon" and "Shoot arrow/bolt" can there possibly BE?

Well, there's "swing melee weapon at seven different speeds" (dagger, sword, axe, mace, greatsword, greataxe, hammer), affecting DPS versus alpha damage, plus a question of whether a weapon can do extra damage more often (through plain damage or DoT) or do more damage than normal to armored opponents, not to mention perks that can add "does insane extra damage from sneak attack" or "added critical effects" (though I think that applies to all weapons but daggers).

Just because the ultimate action is the same ("press button to swing weapon") doesn't mean the effect is always the same That's like reducing the entire Destruction line of spells to "throw magic damage thing" (after all, what's the difference between an Apprentice flame and a Master flame but the size of the fire?).

I don't know if bows and crossbows have separate mechanics yet, though.

You either swing the sword or you don't. You can block with it if you want, but the game gives you shields that are superior.

Actually, my favorite character currently favors a single knife for a fighting style. Partly for the 30x sneak damage, but also because half the Block perks apply to any type of blocking implement, including the Matrix dodge and powerbashing perks. Even if I screw up stealth, I can still win fights by knocking people off balance and taking advantage of the dagger's incredible attack speed.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I have to disagree with you here.

How many iterations of "Swing melee weapon" and "Shoot arrow/bolt" can there possibly BE?

You either swing the sword or you don't. You can block with it if you want, but the game gives you shields that are superior.

I was talking about how in Morrowind every single melee weapon was "press attack button, do damage". Axes, Maces, and Swords were all mechanically the exact same because none of them did anything special, they were all essentially the same melee weapon, just with a different damage number, and a different skin.

In Skyrim however, they gave axes the ability to cause bleed, maces the ability to ignore armor, and swords do bonus critical damage. There's a real mechanical difference to the weapon types in Skyrim, because weapon types actually DO something unique.

It is still the same "press attack button, do damage" as Morrowind, but this time its now "press attack button, do damage, and do bleed damage", or "press attack button, do damage, and do armor ignoring damage", or "press attack button, do damage, and do more critical damage"

Skyrim's weapons are more diverse, because picking between them actually gives you some effect the other weapons don't, whereas Morrowind's melee weapons were all essentially the same.

If people want certain armour to be good then they can actively edit it to match the progression of their gear as they progress like I do with custom armour in TES and FO games.

Novel ways to circumvent the progression are fine, but it shouldn't be the major factor in a game.

To put it in EQ terms, you could try to use Velious armour and its unique textures for as long as you possibly could, but they should eventually give way to you adopting Luclin gear and accepting its look.

That's a silly idea because it removes the entire concept of player choice, and forces everyone down the same linear armor progression.

Every high level character would be the same, with the same armor, and would lack any form of individuality. Choice, and uniqueness > armor tier systems.

If people don't like that, then the best MMO equivalent is in LOTRO where you have your gear that gives you stats and then can overlay aesthetic gear that affects your looks without interrupting the progression of the stat gear. The nearest one can get with that in a game like Skyrim is what I mentioned before, editing the armour to match the best of what you've found in the game so far.

Or how about people just smith their armor to higher levels? Thus giving them the same stats as higher tier armor, but the looks of lower tier armor.

 

[Easton Dark]

Skyrim taking out weapon/armor repair and adding kill cams (archery and hand-to-hand being worth the full price of the game) automatically makes it better than Oblivion.

And since Morrowind's actual game play sucked weewees, Oblivion beats that.

Never played Daggerfall, but I've watched videos. Looks terrible.

It's progression and it's good progression!

 

[Phuctifyno]

Guys! This might be a revolutionary one, guys: I like all of the ones.

Different ones for different moods.

I decide which one I'm in the mood for, then I play that one, and not one of the ones I'm not in the mood for.

Sometimes I like the perky ones, and sometimes I like the spread-sheety ones.

If the new ones are made more accessible to attract more fans, that's cool. New peeps can work their way backwards if they're interested in more arcane, difficult, or complex ones.

Y'see (as is also true with music ones and movie ones), when a new one gets made, it doesn't evaporate all the old ones.

(though truthfully, it would be nice to see the old ones with the graphics of the new ones... maybe there are mods for that... idunno)

But all seriousness aside, Oblivion is the best one. Cuz Sir Patrick Stewart.

 

[Syzygy23]

This was a fabulous post and you are a fabulous person.

Might be pushing it with the one spell = fifteen spells bit but otherwise can't agree more.

One of the biggest fallacies I see with gaming in general is people trying to say "well there were 10 weapons types in X games, but only 5 in this one, so its dumbed down/simplified", when in reality, those 5 weapons in the newer game, do more mechanically then the 10 weapons from past games did.

I have to disagree with you here.

How many iterations of "Swing melee weapon" and "Shoot arrow/bolt" can there possibly BE?

Well, there's "swing melee weapon at seven different speeds" (dagger, sword, axe, mace, greatsword, greataxe, hammer), affecting DPS versus alpha damage, plus a question of whether a weapon can do extra damage more often (through plain damage or DoT) or do more damage than normal to armored opponents, not to mention perks that can add "does insane extra damage from sneak attack" or "added critical effects" (though I think that applies to all weapons but daggers).

Just because the ultimate action is the same ("press button to swing weapon") doesn't mean the effect is always the same That's like reducing the entire Destruction line of spells to "throw magic damage thing" (after all, what's the difference between an Apprentice flame and a Master flame but the size of the fire?).

I don't know if bows and crossbows have separate mechanics yet, though.

You either swing the sword or you don't. You can block with it if you want, but the game gives you shields that are superior.

Actually, my favorite character currently favors a single knife for a fighting style. Partly for the 30x sneak damage, but also because half the Block perks apply to any type of blocking implement, including the Matrix dodge and powerbashing perks. Even if I screw up stealth, I can still win fights by knocking people off balance and taking advantage of the dagger's incredible attack speed.

Ehhhh, alright, I'll give you that one. Does the Matrix dodge apply to blocking with ANY implement or just shields? I always thought it was a shield-specific effect seeing as it was under the Shield-perk tree.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Ehhhh, alright, I'll give you that one. Does the Matrix dodge apply to blocking with ANY implement or just shields? I always thought it was a shield-specific effect seeing as it was under the Shield-perk tree.

Unless the perk specifically mentions a shield, it applies to all forms of block. The matrix time slowing perk does not mention shield, just blocking, so it applies to all form of blocking.

Also, there is no "shield perk tree", the block perk tree affects all forms of blocking, not just shields.

 

[endtherapture]

The weapons all feel the same in Skyrim. Whatever I'm using, a mace, dagger, two handed sword etc. they all feel the same with the exception of if I'm using a shield or not, because they all just swing swing swing at slightly different speeds.

Skyrim needs to take a look at Dark Souls, where you have swords that swing, swords that thrust, halberds, spears, greatswords, rapiers, sythes, maces etc. which all have advantages and disadvantages.

Also you should use up stamina when you attack, so that there's no penalty for choosing a mage over a warrior.

And weapons are affected by your stats in Dark Souls. It's heavily action based, but there's weapon damage scaling from your stats - for example Katanas will scale with Dexterity and Greatswords will scale with strength- This is a great way to keep both action fans happy and also the people who prefer RPGs more, since stats still matter.

 

[bug_of_war]

Snip

Please. Save it. We've heard you spew all that nonsense before. Action games have been around forever. You lose all your creditability when you start with that shit again.

At least he is making points and backing shit up. You're just sitting there going, "It is different to an older game in the series, therfore not good". Dude, I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but you need to show a reason other than time period difference. Back then, Daggerfall was huge, but it's age really shows. Skyrim however feels like a proper sequel whilst trying to look and feel like a new game.

 

[SajuukKhar]

The weapons all feel the same in Skyrim. Whatever I'm using, a mace, dagger, two handed sword etc. they all feel the same with the exception of if I'm using a shield or not, because they all just swing swing swing at slightly different speeds.

Skyrim needs to take a look at Dark Souls, where you have swords that swing, swords that thrust, halberds, spears, greatswords, rapiers, sythes, maces etc. which all have advantages and disadvantages.

Also you should use up stamina when you attack, so that there's no penalty for choosing a mage over a warrior.

And weapons are affected by your stats in Dark Souls. It's heavily action based, but there's weapon damage scaling from your stats - for example Katanas will scale with Dexterity and Greatswords will scale with strength- This is a great way to keep both action fans happy and also the people who prefer RPGs more, since stats still matter.

Well that is mostly because you either
1. Don't have the perks that unlock that weapons special bonus power
2. The weapons bonus power is unfortunately limited to the weapons base damage only, so the effect it adds are minor and hard to notice.

I don't think making attack cost stamina would be a good idea. Oblivion did that, and it turned the game's combat boring, because it made the game even more potion chuggy. Do you really want more potion spam in Skyrim?

Also how would that stat based system work in Skyrim, it has no attributes. I actually would really like to hear it.

 

[mohit9206]

i am a newcomer to elder scrolls series with skyrim being my first elder scrolls game so i cant say whether this game is an.improvement or not over previous games in the series.
but i can say i wasnt impressed by skyrim. i played about 25 hours and couldnt play anymore.
reasons being am a sucker for a well told deep story that skyrim lacks.
next the combat is dull with hack n slash as i played as a warrior nord.
next the big selling point of the game ie the dragons are immensely boring and one dimensional .
most of the npc's are also dull and one dimensional.
most of the quests are dull boring fetch quests, kill that or get that stuff.
the levelling system is boring and overly complex.
the items collecting is boring.
the graphics are great.
but graphics cannot save skyrim

 

[endtherapture]

The weapons all feel the same in Skyrim. Whatever I'm using, a mace, dagger, two handed sword etc. they all feel the same with the exception of if I'm using a shield or not, because they all just swing swing swing at slightly different speeds.

Skyrim needs to take a look at Dark Souls, where you have swords that swing, swords that thrust, halberds, spears, greatswords, rapiers, sythes, maces etc. which all have advantages and disadvantages.

Also you should use up stamina when you attack, so that there's no penalty for choosing a mage over a warrior.

And weapons are affected by your stats in Dark Souls. It's heavily action based, but there's weapon damage scaling from your stats - for example Katanas will scale with Dexterity and Greatswords will scale with strength- This is a great way to keep both action fans happy and also the people who prefer RPGs more, since stats still matter.

Well that is mostly because you either
1. Don't have the perks that unlock that weapons special bonus power
2. The weapons bonus power is unfortunately limited to the weapons base damage only, so the effect it adds are minor and hard to notice.

I don't think making attack cost stamina would be a good idea. Oblivion did that, and it turned the game's combat boring, because it made the game even more potion chuggy. Do you really want more potion spam in Skyrim?

Also how would that stat based system work in Skyrim, it has no attributes. I actually would really like to hear it.

That makes no sense though - spears thrust, swords slash, axes chop, maces crush...that's just a physical property of the weapon - it makes no sense that it should be related to a perk. Instead you should have enemies that are weak to different types of damage - a lightly armoured character will be vulnerable to slashing damage, however a heavily armoured character will be vulnerable to crushing damage from maces and flails.



It depends how fast the speed of regen is - if it's as fast as it is in Dark Souls I don't see a problem there because it is fast enough to not need to swig potions every 10 seconds, but slow enough that button mashing will get you killed quickly.

Introduce stats that grow with your level/skills. Or just have skills score tied to weapon stats - for example having points in a certain skill will increase your damage with strength based weapons. Restoration magic could increase damage from holy/divine weapons etc. allowing cleric builds etc.

I just think Skyrim is a pretty crap "RPG" when it has barely any reliance on stats.