Election results discussion thread (and sadly the inevitable aftermath)

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gorfias

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The fuck does that have to do with anything? 4 years ago I was convinced Warhammer 8th Edition wouldn't be that fun, but I ended up being wrong and loving it. Random thoughts from random people, even election oriented, don't count for shit.
4 Years ago Trump claimed 5+ million Mexicans voted illegally and that's the only reason he lost the popular vote, and his own Administration, using tax payer money, looked into it and found it was total bullshit. 4 Years ago Trump claimed he had the largest inauguration in history, and that it was bright and sunny. People didn't just suddenly develop the ability to lie since the 2020 election.
It is relevant as things have changed in an unprecedented manner that fits a narrative; Hillary did not know how many votes she needed to steal. Today's machine, thanks to those unprecedented changes, did. And the rest is history.
At least if Biden really does get into office (they're still talking about a contested election that could result in a 2nd Trump term) I can start making fun of him... assuming he ever speaks publicly again.
The idea that a state is "aggrieved" because it would've got its way if it weren't for another state opting for a different candidate is a complete non-starter. Maine is not "aggrieved" because Georgia voted for Bush.
But if Georgia did Un Constitutional things to arrive at that vote that otherwise, would have happened, it is Maine that got screwed. Sort of... more below..

Obviously not. The states decide their own rules in advance, and pre-election, the federal government agrees to abide by what they determine. If they disagree with what the states have in place, they can contest it... before the election.
OK. Not heard this before. So, timeliness? More below...

Nobody can just ignore the processes they've agreed to abide by after the election. But that's what Trump, Powell, Ellis and Giuliani are trying to do. The federal administration knew what rules were in place, agreed to abide, until they got a result they didn't want.

No states have been legally found to be violating their constitution.
Clearly PA violated it's own Constitution. But timeliness becomes an issue. Did the Fed have the power to step in, say your process is illegit and failed to do so? This would not surprise me as I believe Republicans have their finger prints on this steal as much as the Left. They want someone who is part of the club... not a relative outsider threatening to investigate them.

For instance, I think they think Biden really did engage in corruption in the Ukraine. And they don't care. Business as usual in certain circles, so it is Trump that is a villain for making a thing of it.
 
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Houseman

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No states have been legally found to be violating their constitution.
And Kyle Rittnehouse has not been legally found to be guilty, neither have the George Floyd cops, nor the Breonna Taylor cops.
 

SilentPony

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It is relevant as things have changed in an unprecedented manner that fits a narrative; Hillary did not know how many votes she needed to steal. Today's machine, thanks to those unprecedented changes, did. And the rest is history.
At least if Biden really does get into office (they're still talking about a contested election that could result in a 2nd Trump term) I can start making fun of him... assuming he ever speaks publicly again.
I mean its revisionist history, changing facts and past actions to fit with a modern conspiracy. Its the equivalent of me saying 4 years ago I read a Twitter post that Trump is secretly married to his daughter Ivanka and the only way he could keep it a secret is to lose the 2020 election. Its tailored to retroactively fit the facts of a Trump loss, but it doesn't mean anything.
Although of all the things Trump can be accused of, an incestuous relationship with his daughter is one of the more level headed ones, if only because he openly say if they weren't related he would date her and they bond over the love of sex.
 

Silvanus

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And Kyle Rittnehouse has not been legally found to be guilty, neither have the George Floyd cops, nor the Breonna Taylor cops.
OK, but gorfias appears to be making a purely legal/ Constitutional argument, not a moral one.
 
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gorfias

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I mean its revisionist history, changing facts and past actions to fit with a modern conspiracy. Its the equivalent of me saying 4 years ago I read a Twitter post that Trump is secretly married to his daughter Ivanka and the only way he could keep it a secret is to lost the 2020 election. Its tailored to retroactively fit the facts of a Trump loss, but it doesn't mean anything.
Although of all the things Trump can be accused of, an incestuous relationship with his daughter is one of the more level headed ones, if only because he openly say if they weren't related he would date her and they bond over the love of sex.
Not revisionist history. History. The piece of which I'm writing came out four years ago. That 4 years ago, they didn't know ahead of time just how many votes they would need to steal to steal an election. Now they do. You can argue they are just too nice and honest and wouldn't do it. But the opportunity was there. And I think they used it.
Mail in ballots, even if not stolen are an entire 2nd issue. Absentee ballots (military, workers temp. out of country) are one unavoidable issue. But mail in ballots? People casting votes before a single debate? That in itself is a problem.
OK, but gorfias appears to be making a purely legal/ Constitutional argument, not a moral one.
A thing doesn't have to be adjudicated for us to have an understanding of the truth of a matter or not.
Huge problem in our society. For instance, just because the USSC makes a legal finding, if you know the law and facts and the judgement does not jibe with them, you can simply suspect an abuse of power or other not kosher thing has happened.
 
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SilentPony

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Not revisionist history. History. The piece of which I'm writing came out four years ago. That 4 years ago, they didn't know ahead of time just how many votes they would need to steal to steal an election. Now they do. You can argue they are just too nice and honest and wouldn't do it. But the opportunity was there. And I think they used it.
Mail in ballots, even if not stolen are an entire 2nd issue. Absentee ballots (military, workers temp. out of country) are one unavoidable issue. But mail in ballots? People casting votes before a single debate? That in itself is a problem.
But there was no election fraud in the 2016 election. The very premise of falls apart at the "They cheated last time" part. That's the revision. Hilary didn't cheat, but in order to make the conspiracy theory of Biden cheating you have to change it to Hilary did cheat. That's historical revisionism.
 

gorfias

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But there was no election fraud in the 2016 election. The very premise of falls apart at the "They cheated last time" part. That's the revision. Hilary didn't cheat, but in order to make the conspiracy theory of Biden cheating you have to change it to Hilary did cheat. That's historical revisionism.
Maybe there was, maybe (unlikely) there was not stealing by HRC. But this really happened 4 years ago: it was noted that the process did not exist to know how many votes you needed to steal ahead of time. That has changed. It really has.
 

Hades

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Many believe that democracy IS being suspended to award Biden an unearned term. Many believe that democracy IS ALREADY being sacrificed just so an incompetent and extremely corrupt individual can have four years in office.
And those people are being deceived. Practically no one who makes those claim has any credibility and those that do have credibility keep shooting those claims down. So far the only real reason to believe there is fraud is because its convenient for Trump.

And who defines unearned? Biden won the electoral vote by leaps and bounds while Trump rarely if ever got an approval rating over 50%. The only reason Trump and the Republicans are even competitive to begin with is because the electoral college keeps them in the game by artificial means. Democracy in American is already slighter weakened for the benefit of the smaller states and now that isn't enough to win the Republicans are throwing a hissyfit. Talk about spoiled children. Its also worth noting that Biden is nowhere near as corrupt as Trump. As a politician Biden undoubtedly isn't crystal clean but he's not like Trump were corruption is a constant pattern throughout his entire career.

So far Biden has the electoral vote, he has the college vote and he's nowhere near as reviled as Trump. By all usable metric he and not Donald Trump is the people's pick for president.
 

Hades

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But there was no election fraud in the 2016 election. The very premise of falls apart at the "They cheated last time" part. That's the revision. Hilary didn't cheat, but in order to make the conspiracy theory of Biden cheating you have to change it to Hilary did cheat. That's historical revisionism.
Its not really historical revisionism. Its nonsense but at least its consistent nonsense. Trump has always been very vocal about Clinton having cheated because he just couldn't bear that she won the popular vote and that this mean he only won through a freak accident in the electoral college. In any competent democracy Clinton would have won and so its important for Trump to stress that he secretly won the popular vote after all.
 

Houseman

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A thing doesn't have to be adjudicated for us to have an understanding of the truth of a matter or not.
Huge problem in our society. For instance, just because the USSC makes a legal finding, if you know the law and facts and the judgement does not jibe with them, you can simply suspect an abuse of power or other not kosher thing has happened.
Exactly, and that's what people will say, and have said, whenever the examples I listed aren't ruled upon in the way that they personally wanted them to be
 
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SilentPony

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Maybe there was, maybe (unlikely) there was not stealing by HRC. But this really happened 4 years ago: it was noted that the process did not exist to know how many votes you needed to steal ahead of time. That has changed. It really has.
Well...no. That's not how it works. Its not "This may or may not have happened, also it totally did happen and they've improved it."
If Hilary didn't cheat, which no one has ever found any evidence she did, and all investigations, even those by Trump's people, found nothing, then there was no system to improve. The process didn't exist 4 years ago, so there was no process to improve. Allegations like election fraud aren't like middle school arguments, you actually have to provide proof. There is no "maybe, maybe not" there is only proven and unproven. No one has ever proven Hilary cheated; in fact they proven there was no cheating. There is no "Well maybe they still did, and now they've perfected the process" follow up.
Its Hilary didn't cheat, full stop, end of sentence. Anything else is by definition factless, baseless, anti-reality, historical revisionist malarkey for the sake of the Biden stole 2020 mythology.
 

SilentPony

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Its not really historical revisionism. Its nonsense but at least its consistent nonsense. Trump has always been very vocal about Clinton having cheated because he just couldn't bear that she won the popular vote and that this mean he only won through a freak accident in the electoral college. In any competent democracy Clinton would have won and so its important for Trump to stress that he secretly won the popular vote after all.
But it is revisionism because the very investigations by Trump's people into the election found there was no fraud. So in order for Hilary to have cheated, those people found evidence and proved she did cheat. And that's a revision of history. That's not what happened, but we have to pretend it did so the Biden mythology can continue.
 

Silvanus

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A thing doesn't have to be adjudicated for us to have an understanding of the truth of a matter or not.
Huge problem in our society. For instance, just because the USSC makes a legal finding, if you know the law and facts and the judgement does not jibe with them, you can simply suspect an abuse of power or other not kosher thing has happened.
I understand that. But the principle that a state does not have standing to interfere with the electoral process of another state is well established and not under serious dispute. The law is fully in line with what the SCOTUS decided, as legal experts-- including right wing ones-- had been saying for weeks.
 
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Agema

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Maybe there was, maybe (unlikely) there was not stealing by HRC.
Of course there wasn't.

Dictators can fiddle elections because they have the power to control the electoral process from start to finish, and law enforcement, media and whatever else they need. The Democrats very plainly do not have that sort of control. Amassing enough fraudulent votes to swing an election is really difficult. In a country such as the USA, it's a minimum of hundreds of thousands of votes across numerous states. That requires huge logistical effort, a huge number of people, who are supposed to carry this off whilst operating under mass scrutiny. An operation of that magnitude would be cracked open and exposed as easily as an egg under a 4-pound hammer.

But this really happened 4 years ago: it was noted that the process did not exist to know how many votes you needed to steal ahead of time. That has changed. It really has.
No, it hasn't. No-one can know how many votes they need.

They would have to assume the polls are reliable - they're normally relaible to a couple of percent, although this year they were unusually inaccurate. They would also need to know turnout, which is vital for any such calculations, and also hard to predict, because that will also completely screw calculations. For instance, the polls showed Trump and Biden level-pegging in Ohio and Georgia. But Biden won Georgia by a whisker and lost Ohio by about 8 points. That tells you something about just how hard it is to predict how many false votes would be needed to win.

But if Georgia did Un Constitutional things to arrive at that vote that otherwise, would have happened, it is Maine that got screwed. Sort of... more below.
This also is basically junk.

If the Texas suit does not have "standing" - which, let's face it, the people presenting it must have suspected - then there was an easy remedy. Hand the legal arguments to literally any Pennsylvania / Michigan / etc. citizen willing to put it forward instead: it's not like a lot of those legal arguments really change. The president has asked for a mass of funding to do precisely things like that.

Although, of course, it has been pointed out that the resources deployed by the Trump campaign and Republicans for legal challenges were remarkably threadbare: the planning and infrastructure simply had not been laid down to launch the sort of legal assault that the supposed severity warranted. So either they were completely incompetent, or it's all just theatre and they weren't really willing to put their money where their mouths were. And it's the latter, isn't it?
 
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Houseman

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That requires huge logistical effort, a huge number of people, who are supposed to carry this off whilst operating under mass scrutiny. An operation of that magnitude would be cracked open and exposed as easily as an egg under a 4-pound hammer.

Did anybody go to jail over this in 2018? Was there any investigation done?

Our elections are not secure. Nobody enforces the laws. Nobody investigates. Nobody takes it seriously. So no, it wouldn't take a herculean effort to sabotage them.
 
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And Kyle Rittnehouse has not been legally found to be guilty, neither have the George Floyd cops, nor the Breonna Taylor cops.
Are these example of the events of the situation being disagreed with in court or the interpretation of those events?
 

Houseman

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Are these example of the events of the situation being disagreed with in court or the interpretation of those events?
These are examples of events where the public might want justice and determine, in the court of public opinion, that someone is guilty, but then the courts determine that the person is innocent, or at least, not as guilty as the public has determined. The public will then cry fowl, claim that the system is broken, that justice wasn't served, etc.
 

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Trunkage

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These are examples of events where the public might want justice and determine, in the court of public opinion, that someone is guilty, but then the courts determine that the person is innocent, or at least, not as guilty as the public has determined. The public will then cry fowl, claim that the system is broken, that justice wasn't served, etc.
No one is claiming that George Floyd didn't die by the hand of Chauvin. Those events are facts
 

Houseman

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Wait... you think these votes have similar handwriting? Because that's what this article claims
They are obviously all written by the same person.

No one is claiming that George Floyd didn't die by the hand of Chauvin. Those events are facts
We'll see. Maybe he died of an overdose from all the illegal drugs he was taking.
 
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