Election results discussion thread (and sadly the inevitable aftermath)

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crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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No, I'm not. I haven't told you to dismiss the actions. You responded to my post saying they should be arrested, for God's sake. But you should stop treating this as an important political movement. Why are you so insistent on making this matter to the overall political landscape? Are you hoping this is an excuse for the people who do have power to make changes? Are you hoping to sink a Republican Party that has condemned the actions? Or are you just attacking me for whatever personal gratification it gives you, and the reasoning doesn't need to make sense?

Regardless, you're supporting this. You're taking people who attacked the US Congress and telling the world that these people are important and have power.
Because ignoring that it happened and had enough popular support to actually happen is dangerous. The political right of this country came out to give him the second highest vote count of any American president ever. This was not a one-off event and now that it's over we should just forget it happened, this was an attempted fascist coup from the political right, and trying to downplay that at all is completely unacceptable.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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I mean:

The White House has issued a statement on the prospect of an unprecedented second round of impeachment proceedings against Donald Trump.

“As President Trump said yesterday, this is a time for healing and unity as one nation. A politically motivated impeachment against a president with 12 days remaining in his term will only serve to further divide our great country,”
The sheer nerve of these people. Spend months hyping a fake conspiracy of their opponents' electoral fraud culminating in their boss directing a mob into Congress, and then claim it's a time for healing and unity?
 
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Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

Get the point
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So did BLM, so have a lot of other people and/or groups.
okay, I'm tired of you bring up that group
Black Lives Matters and Antifa and what they do or did has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. What you are doing is no different from some spinless tanker excusing every crime the Chinese government does by going wHaT aBoUt ThE uSa? this is about TRUMP'S FOLLOWERS! invading the capitol, not Black Lives Matters and Antifa. Those Groups could be about having the right to kick pugs like footballs and they would still be empty whataboutism because the disconnected to this event.
 
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Houseman

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A 'Coup' is "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government ". Check, it was an attempt to take control of the Capital building and prevent the ratification of the electoral college.
I don't think this can be considered a "seizure of power", not even an attempted one. For one, you have no evidence to suggest that this was the motivation of the mob. Neither did they have any sort of organization or even the weapons necessary to overpower the security forces that were there, nor did they even try. The only shots fired inside the capitol were those by the Capitol Police.

So you can't say that they attempted to seize power, because you have no evidence for that claim.

Fascism is "a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy " Check. Forcible suppression of opposition. They tried to force Democrats and Republicans to violate the Constitution and prevent the ratification of the electoral college.
Again, you have no evidence as to what they "tried" to do. In fact, evidence points in the opposite direction. Taking silly pictures at desks and wearing viking costumes, and inviting someone's grandma, are not the actions of people who want to "seize power" or force anyone to do anything.

Black Lives Matters and Antifa and what they do or did has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.
I'm bringing them up to demonstrate the double standards between what happened here, and what they have been doing.
If X, Y, and Z = terrorist, then other groups who do X, Y, and Z must also be terrorists. This is unavoidable. You cannot have one without the other. Do you disagree?
It's not whataboutism. It's forcing you to recognize that you can't just toss accusations around without consequence.
 

Silvanus

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Neither did they have any sort of organization or even the weapons necessary to overpower the security forces that were there, nor did they even try.
The man who killed a police officer with a fire extinguisher seemed to be trying. The ones who injured 60 police officers, and hospitalised 12, with metal pipes and chemical agents, seemed to be trying.

If you're still arguing for "fun", I'd highly recommend you start to take this a bit more seriously. Least of all because it'll make people more willing to engage with you in future.
 
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Houseman

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The man who killed a police officer with a fire extinguisher seemed to be trying. The ones who injured 60 police officers, and hospitalised 12, with metal pipes and chemical agents, seemed to be trying.
Improvised weapons are the hallmark of an angry, unorganized mob, with no clear goals, further evidence that this was not a coup.
That they were willing and able to commit violence means nothing as to their goals and motivations, which is what you need to establish. Every angry mob commits violence.
 

ObsidianJones

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So, I spoke to two of my conservative friends today. One is one of my oldest friends and he just told me I'm pretty much his only friend left because everyone turned their back on him because he voted and likes Trump. I told him the straight facts. He doesn't have to believe like me to have me support him. At the end of the day, we met when we were kids in Tae Kwon Do, I was there for his marriage and the birth of his two children, he was there for me when my dad had his stroke, my mom had hers, and when she died of Covid.

These lines in the sand are not worth it. Being right isn't worth our humanity. I might hate Trump, but that doesn't mean I hate Republicans.

Can we start a dialog about what it will take to remember that we are humans and not parties?
 

Silvanus

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Improvised weapons are the hallmark of an angry, unorganized mob, with no clear goals, further evidence that this was not a coup
The pipe bombs at the RNC and DNC were hardly just plucked up on the spot, were they? There were also arrests for unlicensed firearms.

But this is besides the point. I don't believe the majority of people had travelled all the way from out-of-state to the Capitol intending, from the start, to overpower security forces. I believe some did-- hence the unlicensed carries and pipe bombs. Regardless, when the mob was there and got whipped up, that is what they tried to do. It's an obvious falsehood to say they "didn't even try" to overpower the security forces, when they injured scores of them and murdered one.
 

tstorm823

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Many of us spent years saying Trump was unfit for office, and this illustrates why perhaps more than anything.
Ok, and some of us have spent years explaining how overblown your fears were, and this illustrates why perhaps more than anything.

America isn't not a banana republic because nobody would ever do something like attack Congress. America isn't a banana republic because such an attack has no power. You've tried to convince me Trump is like a mafia don or a tinpot dictator, and haven't conceded yet that the American system of government doesn't give him that power even if he wanted it.
 

SilentPony

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Dropping the argument means conceding.
No just means I have no trust you can debate in good faith, nor do I believe you have the education required to understand what a 'coup' or 'fascism' are. Nor do I believe you have the education to understand US law or politics. By your own admittance you are an uneducated man who does not even understand the arguments he makes, why should anyone trust you can understand the arguments of others?
 

tstorm823

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This was not a one-off event and now that it's over we should just forget it happened, this was an attempted fascist coup from the political right, and trying to downplay that at all is completely unacceptable.
If you think this is "the political right" you completely misunderstand the dynamics here. The Trump crowd isn't right-wing. It isn't ideological. The crossover between Obama voters and Trump voters is large, the people who support Trump strongly and didn't vote before him is even larger. These people have no more loyalty to me than they have loyalty to you.
 

Houseman

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The pipe bombs at the RNC and DNC were hardly just plucked up on the spot, were they? There were also arrests for unlicensed firearms.
This is still not evidence of intent of the mob. For example, how would any of the bombs help seize the government? Do you have any evidence that this was coordinated by multiple people, or the act of an individual? Do you have any evidence of a ringleader? Was someone handing out firearms, or were these brought by individuals?
Also, why were these firearms never used or even brandished? Isn't it kind of difficult to overthrow a government without firing a single shot?

Do you know who sent the bombs? Was it Antifa? BLM? Trump Supporters? We know one BLM guy was arrested, as I linked earlier.

But this is besides the point. I don't believe the majority of people had travelled all the way from out-of-state to the Capitol intending, from the start, to overpower security forces. I believe some did-- hence the unlicensed carries and pipe bombs. Regardless, when the mob was there and got whipped up, that is what they tried to do.
"overpower security forces", to what end? We have no evidence for any answer other than "to get inside".
"To what end" is the question you're supposed to be answering, I'll remind you.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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If you think this is "the political right" you completely misunderstand the dynamics here. The Trump crowd isn't right-wing. It isn't ideological. The crossover between Obama voters and Trump voters is large, the people who support Trump strongly and didn't vote before him is even larger. These people have no more loyalty to me than they have loyalty to you.
As a small point of reference, Obama is right-wing too. Less authoritarian (at least personally), but plenty right-wing. But these are the people who wanted to install Trump as a dictator, it's the right-wing.
 
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Elijin

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The attempts to just sweep this away and act as if it was no big deal are kind of alarming.

It doesn't matter how effective it was, it doesn't matter if the whole thing was a disorganised shitshow. It happened. People stormed your capitol building. The rest of the world is wincing as the "champions of freedom and democracy" push a new low every other day.

Downplaying it because you don't want to acknowledge what it means for your political parties and country is just sticking your head in the sand. This was a bad day for you America, please reflect on that and start contemplating how as individuals you can try change the current trends.
 

Houseman

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The attempts to just sweep this away and act as if it was no big deal are kind of alarming.
The attempts to make this out as some terrorist siege are kind of alarming.

Can we meet somewhere in the middle? Yes, it was bad, and inexcusable and unjustifiable. No it wasn't a fascist coup.
 

tstorm823

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Downplaying it because you don't want to acknowledge what it means for your political parties and country is just sticking your head in the sand. This was a bad day for you America, please reflect on that and start contemplating how as individuals you can try change the current trends.
Are you suggesting that we start fundamentally changing our system that was utterly unaffected by this event? Do you think the measurement of a government is the ability to avoid hardship rather than survive it?
 
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