Election results discussion thread (and sadly the inevitable aftermath)

Status
Not open for further replies.

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Jul 16, 2013
3,031
357
88
You write that in jest, but i am convinced that AIs will eventually make market forces obsolete because they will become better at allocating ressources and judging needs/desires. And after that capitalism will end.
Yeah, I think that as well. Ultimately technology progresses to a point that the 'age of ideologies' must come to an end. Just as the industrial revolution did with the absolute power of the European monarchies. Technology have always driven social change and now there is the aggravating factor of climate change as well which makes it even more of a necessity. Quantum computers, nanotechnology, breakthroughs in A.I. etc is going to lead to huge changes.
 

Chimpzy

Simian Abomination
Legacy
Escapist +
Apr 3, 2020
12,837
9,271
118
I SAID NEVER LEARN
I haven't. I only know of him by way of reputation. And that stupid term he coined that makes him sound like a monumental douche. I'm guessing because he is.

Unless you mean the realtor, which yeah, the real estate biz sucks balls.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,132
3,870
118
Probably referring to Nick Land, an English philosopher known his espousal of accelerationism. As well as anti-democratic/humanist/egalitarian ideas. Oh, and "hyper racism".

The other option's a realtor in Karachi, Pakistan.
I hate to say it, when you're talking about real people, but fictional character Arkham Land and his Landite disciplines also kinda fit.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,209
6,480
118
You write that in jest, but i am convinced that AIs will eventually make market forces obsolete because they will become better at allocating ressources and judging needs/desires. And after that capitalism will end.
Not entirely in jest.

If you think what a corporation is, it's essentially a centrally-planned economy. Wal-Mart has 2 million employees globally, it's a small country in terms of scale. So maybe the problem the Communists had was not so much the concept, but the inability to manage the system... and maybe well into the computer era, that can be resolved.

The more important point is that this sort of transition would cause an absolutely colossal change in society and economy. A lot of people are bought into the capitalist system ideologically, and especially major shareholders (thus rich and powerful) benefit from it. In the case of the former, ideological beliefs easily last a lifetime, and they will be incredibly hard to shift. The latter are sitting on a colossal societal advantage, and I seriously doubt they are going to let go of that without a huge fight - not least because we would also need to consider wider distribution. It seems very difficult to leave the existing rich with vast ownership - to freeze a massively unequal society and introduce a system where allocation of further resources may lock those advantages in.

In short, this would be a change of decades or generations. If we started tomorrow, I wouldn't bet I'd be alive when it finished.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Satinavian

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,157
969
118
Country
USA
Anyone talking about AI making work unnecessary is ignorant of:

a) The small fraction of work that could even reasonably be replaced.
b) The quantity of work people currently do.
c) The quantity of work people don't currently do because they lack the time and resources.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,209
6,480
118
Anyone talking about AI making work unnecessary is ignorant of:

a) The small fraction of work that could even reasonably be replaced.
b) The quantity of work people currently do.
c) The quantity of work people don't currently do because they lack the time and resources.
No, it's quite a big fraction of work that can be replaced. Over much of the world, agriculture isn't that far advanced from the 19th century. A lot of factories use brute force labour rather than automation because wages are low enough that it's cheaper than automation. Bank tellers and many other admin jobs have gone in the face of an IT revolution, and even in jobs like mine (education), IT has enabled decreased staff:student ratios, and will continue to do so.

The trick is simply that we've created other work for people to do. Stroopwafel makes an interesting point when he says lots of jobs are unimportant. They are. More people than ever are paid to do societally non-vital tasks. We don't need professional sports players, professional YouTube contributors, and so on. We can afford them to work because we have lots of spare money and they're nice to have around, but if they all disappeared tomorrow, everyone would still be fed, housed and clothed.
 

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
1,935
803
118
Anyone talking about AI making work unnecessary is ignorant of:

a) The small fraction of work that could even reasonably be replaced.
b) The quantity of work people currently do.
c) The quantity of work people don't currently do because they lack the time and resources.
AI won't make work unnecessary.

But it will do that to certain jobs. Like, for example bankers. Or traders. Or people making investment decisions. Most of the most important and best paid jobs in capitalism are about shifting numbers around. Where AI will have the advantage. And people will start asking "why do we need ownership and profits if it is the software which does the decisions anyway ?"
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,157
969
118
Country
USA
AI won't make work unnecessary.

But it will do that to certain jobs. Like, for example bankers. Or traders. Or people making investment decisions. Most of the most important and best paid jobs in capitalism are about shifting numbers around. Where AI will have the advantage. And people will start asking "why do we need ownership and profits if it is the software which does the decisions anyway ?"
Because AI can't be held accountable.
 

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Jul 16, 2013
3,031
357
88
Not entirely in jest.

If you think what a corporation is, it's essentially a centrally-planned economy. Wal-Mart has 2 million employees globally, it's a small country in terms of scale. So maybe the problem the Communists had was not so much the concept, but the inability to manage the system... and maybe well into the computer era, that can be resolved.

The more important point is that this sort of transition would cause an absolutely colossal change in society and economy. A lot of people are bought into the capitalist system ideologically, and especially major shareholders (thus rich and powerful) benefit from it. In the case of the former, ideological beliefs easily last a lifetime, and they will be incredibly hard to shift. The latter are sitting on a colossal societal advantage, and I seriously doubt they are going to let go of that without a huge fight - not least because we would also need to consider wider distribution. It seems very difficult to leave the existing rich with vast ownership - to freeze a massively unequal society and introduce a system where allocation of further resources may lock those advantages in.

In short, this would be a change of decades or generations. If we started tomorrow, I wouldn't bet I'd be alive when it finished.
Yeah, but this scenario isn't too dissimilar to the Restoration after the French Revolution. Those in power will always try to restore the status quo but if this is rendered obsolete by technology then similarly changes in society will no longer obey the ancien regime. Their wider support network will crumble and they simply have no legs to stand on. I don't think anyone from the late middle ages to the Renaissance ever imagined the monarchies to be rendered irrelevant but yet it happened, thus began the age of ideologies with the industrial revolution as the most important catalyst. Similarly I think progress in automation and breakthroughs in AI will have a similar effect, if not more so. Like always in history changes begin slowly but then at a certain momentum those changes accelerate.
 

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Jul 16, 2013
3,031
357
88
Anyone talking about AI making work unnecessary is ignorant of:

a) The small fraction of work that could even reasonably be replaced.
b) The quantity of work people currently do.
c) The quantity of work people don't currently do because they lack the time and resources.
I wouldn't say small. The tasks automation can do moves up every decade or so. Robotics also have become essential for some of the most complicated/high risk surgeries. No one really doubts AI will ultimately move past what human intelligence can do by an astronomical margin. People can still work, but it will be pointless. But to be honest, that really wouldn't be that different for a large percentage of the workforce today. You can just make up fluff occupations.
 

Lykosia

Senior Member
May 26, 2020
65
33
23
Country
Finland
Anyone talking about AI making work unnecessary is ignorant of:

a) The small fraction of work that could even reasonably be replaced.
In the next couple of decades we're talking about 50 % of current jobs will be replaced by AI. Factories, healthcare, law, trade, banking, insurance, journalists etc. Tons of areas where there's room for AIs to take over.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,157
969
118
Country
USA
In the next couple of decades we're talking about 50 % of current jobs will be replaced by AI. Factories, healthcare, law, trade, banking, insurance, journalists etc. Tons of areas where there's room for AIs to take over.
A) No. Healthcare is not going to be replaced by robots. Healthcare is being expanded by technology, not replaced. Factories have had automation for decades, unless you want automation inception where AI auto installs AI, that's not getting more automated. Law, trade, and banking are things that have careers specifically to have legal accountability for something. AI isn't going to replace accountability. Insurance, sure. Journalists... lol, sure, we can fire those people I don't mind.
B) The things you're thinking of are way outnumbered by the things you aren't.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,209
6,480
118
Trump right now
Trump forever. He's one of the most litigous people on the planet. There isn't a contract he's signed he won't have considered can be "renegotiated" afterwards through a court case. Don't want to repay your loans, or pay your workers? Force them to get their money back through the courts!
 

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Jul 16, 2013
3,031
357
88
Trump forever. He's one of the most litigous people on the planet. There isn't a contract he's signed he won't have considered can be "renegotiated" afterwards through a court case. Don't want to repay your loans, or pay your workers? Force them to get their money back through the courts!
Biggest miracle is that people continued to want to do business with him. Though without loans from Deutsche Bank eh..''douche bank''(the only bank that would still loan him money) he would have gone bankrupt. To his credit Trump can be suprisingly candid, he didn't understand how a bank can be so stupid. xD Ultimately foreign investors, Russians etc were just buying into the brand. If this isn't showmanship I don't know what is.
 

Tireseas

Plaguegirl
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
262
117
48
Seattle
Country
United States
Gender
Trans Woman
AI won't make work unnecessary.

But it will do that to certain jobs. Like, for example bankers. Or traders. Or people making investment decisions. Most of the most important and best paid jobs in capitalism are about shifting numbers around. Where AI will have the advantage. And people will start asking "why do we need ownership and profits if it is the software which does the decisions anyway ?"
I'm just going to point out that algorithmic trading has been a thing for over 2 decades and about 80% are done by these algorithms now.
Because AI can't be held accountable.
But AI can be owned, and who can own can be liable. That's part of the discussions of self-driving vehicles: who is liable if the car crashes? The driver (general liability)? The vehicle manufacturer (products liability)? The Programmer (also products liability)? The municipality (if the road conditions led to the crash)?

Claiming there is no accountability simply "because AI" kind of ignores potentially responsible parties.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,157
969
118
Country
USA
Claiming there is no accountability simply "because AI" kind of ignores potentially responsible parties.
I don't mean to suggest there's no accountability. What I mean to suggest is that people will be paid to be accountable. There are absolutely careers being the human in charge of automated systems to answer that question of accountability.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.