emotion in Western RPGs?

[Seldon2639]

The thing I like about games Like KOTOR as opposed to Final Fantasy, is that you have more freedom to act like you would... It is really Hard to be a Sith Lord if you keep saying things that aren't evil... I act evil as hell, but when I start talking to people, sometimes I earn Lightside points... Whereas in FFXII I never say anything mean or assholish. I can't randomly fight someone because I said they look like someone kept the afterbirth and threw away the baby. That is what KOTOR has done for the RPG. Sure, I liked FFXII, but not half as much as I love KOTOR. I've gotten tired of saving the world, sometimes I just want to destroy every planet with the death star (Thank you, Empire At War) and other days, I just don't give a shit, as long as you don't annoy me, you might not lose a limb or your life. You never have that option in JRPGs.

My reasoning is that the Japanese are big on honor and the idea of a main character of a game glorifying his or her evil is culturally unrealistic or unacceptable, whereas we have two entire cities devoted to assholes, (New York and Los Angeles... I miss Los Angeles.) so it isn't that big of a deal to us.

I agree in part. The difference doesn't really come down to how well you're allowed to act. In KOTOR, you're not allowed to join the Sith, or destroy the Republic (at least until the end). The choices you make, while important, can't impact the story. Besides that, unless you can view the character as an avatar of yourself, or invent through sheer imagination an underlying personality (the former of which I can't do, the latter of which I prefer not to), it's all bland "do whatever you want, really".

@ ReepNeep:

I completely agree, we need to not pigeonhole games into one classification or another. The issue being that there do tend to be stark differences. WRPGs focus on (generally) more open-world make-choices-that-define-the-character non-linear games, while JRPGs focus on storytelling, and character development. I'd prefer to compare the merits of each game to the others, and I do tend to like an eclectic variety of games, but when Yahtzee, or any of the hooting-anti-JRPG-dickholes screech about stereotypes, and Western RPGs being better across the board, I'm irked.

@ RED4HAMMER:

You either need to back up your statement with some kind of evidence which puts those games as far ahead of any existing JRPGs in terms of those qualities, or make it clear that it's your opinion. If you want to have an actual discussion, it's per-maybe-haps not the most effective thing to give a blanket "this is the god's honest truth" statement, and leave no room for discussion. If you want to go game by game and explain why those games all beat the pants off of every JRPG in existence (in some objective, measurable way, aside from "I like non-linearity, and choice, and JRPGs don't do that", or similar complaints that amount to dislikine a genre by personal preference), we can.

 

[REDH4MMER]

I'm really just not going to go through every game there detailing plot, quoting dialog, going over characters and listing NPC's an what not. Really the proof is in the pudding so to say. Just play the games in that list, I'm go on a hunch here say you probably haven't played any of those games there.

I love RPG's, from any corner of the earth. If its good it's good, I don't care for how restrictive or unrestrictive the game is or isn't. I just want good plot, characters, dialog all that jazz. And those games there deliver all that in spades. Of any type of RPG be it western, Eastern whatever.

 

[Chilango2]

I'm really just not going to go through every game there detailing plot, quoting dialog, going over characters and listing NPC's an what not. Really the proof is in the pudding so to say. Just play the games in that list, I'm go on a hunch here say you probably haven't played any of those games there.

I love RPG's, from any corner of the earth. If its good it's good, I don't care for how restrictive or unrestrictive the game is or isn't. I just want good plot, characters, dialog all that jazz. And those games there deliver all that in spades. Of any type of RPG be it western, Eastern whatever.

Absolutely true.

RPG is about the characters and the story, everything else is details.

 

[Seldon2639]

I'm really just not going to go through every game there detailing plot, quoting dialog, going over characters and listing NPC's an what not. Really the proof is in the pudding so to say. Just play the games in that list, I'm go on a hunch here say you probably haven't played any of those games there.

I love RPG's, from any corner of the earth. If its good it's good, I don't care for how restrictive or unrestrictive the game is or isn't. I just want good plot, characters, dialog all that jazz. And those games there deliver all that in spades. Of any type of RPG be it western, Eastern whatever.

The real phrase is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", and is actually pretty applicable. The proof that a game is good is in playing it, rather than commenting on it. And I completely agree with you, those are some very good games. It's when you dismiss JRPGs on their faces because they are JRPGs. I'm with you on judging each game on their merit, but it also depends a lot on personal taste, is all I'm saying. So, yes, those are great games, but do they beat every JRPG hands down? I don't really think so

 

[shadow skill]

Since when is Deus Ex an rpg?

Freedom within the game worth does not negate plot or character development. A lesson the cinematic linear jrpg's could take a lesson from since often theres no connection to the characters for the simple reason it's not 'you' interacting with them nor do you even participate, you just control the little fellows from battle to battle and do the running.

I would have to agree that The Witcher is one of the better examples of Western RPGs; frankly I think it is wrong to even consider some of the Elder Scrolls games RPGs, but I have to ask since when did you need to be in a book in order to empathize with characters? The idea that there is a loss of connection to characters because you are not them (which you can't really be anyway.) flies in the face of what has been going on in every other form of art that deals with telling a story. What is important is whether a character has a voice or not. That is what creates the connection when player input is not allowed (This is the thing FPS' don't understand.), if the player character never says anything and you are given no insight into his or her thoughts there can never be any connection.

 

[Alex_P]

Since when is Deus Ex an rpg?

Skills system. Experience points. Grid-based inventory screen. Dialogue options. That's about as "RPG" as Diablo (which has character classes -- something that DE lacks -- but doesn't really have any dialogue trees).

Although, honestly, as much as I love Deus Ex, my opinion is that a lot of the "RPG" elements are just weighing it down.

-- Alex

 

[Piston Effesca]

Why is this thread still going? The answer simply comes down to taste.

Back in the 90s I played JRPGs nonstop, and loathed WRPGs because I felt they were ugly with boring plot-lines ripped off of DnD (at the time I was really into ADD 2nd ed. though.) Then I found a wonderful thing called "gameplay" and now in my 20s I hate most JRPGs for having next to none (the ones who do have fun and engaging gameplay, Paper Mario for example, are the exception. But they're a rare bird indeed.)

It seems the problem has come down to fanboyish "I like Cloud because XYZ, thus JRPGs are awesome!" or "Hey, I like to be able to stab people and watch them run in horror, thus playing the role of a serial killer. Because of this, WRPGs are awesome!" or "I like stabbing people in the head and running around like an anime pretty boy while I'm doing it. Both are good." Throw in the obligatory Aeris made me cry story, etc etc, argument done.

The real question is "what is an RPG?" since everyone seems to silently agree it means "story, characters, hit points and character growth", all things found in just about every other video game.

 

[Seldon2639]

Why is this thread still going? The answer simply comes down to taste.

Back in the 90s I played JRPGs nonstop, and loathed WRPGs because I felt they were ugly with boring plot-lines ripped off of DnD (at the time I was really into ADD 2nd ed. though.) Then I found a wonderful thing called "gameplay" and now in my 20s I hate most JRPGs for having next to none (the ones who do have fun and engaging gameplay, Paper Mario for example, are the exception. But they're a rare bird indeed.)

It seems the problem has come down to fanboyish "I like Cloud because XYZ, thus JRPGs are awesome!" or "Hey, I like to be able to stab people and watch them run in horror, thus playing the role of a serial killer. Because of this, WRPGs are awesome!" or "I like stabbing people in the head and running around like an anime pretty boy while I'm doing it. Both are good." Throw in the obligatory Aeris made me cry story, etc etc, argument done.

The real question is "what is an RPG?" since everyone seems to silently agree it means "story, characters, hit points and character growth", all things found in just about every other video game.

I'm right there with you, and I also don't think it's unreasonable to like different games for different reasons. I loved KOTOR I & II, and Mass Effect. I disliked Oblivion, but that's not me saying that all WRPGs suck. There are going to be fantastic games on both sides, each catering to what individual people's wants, needs, and desires. I tend to like JRPGs more because there are more of them out there that allow the main character to be a separate entity from me, but still be fully fleshed out. But, the WRPGs that do that (Mass Effect, especially) have won my heart as well.

It comes down to a lot of personal bias. We're all trying to prove that our preferences and beliefs are (or should be) the most important criteria for judging. I, personally, would like to deal with each game individually, and ask whether a game is good on its merits alone. If Kingdom Hearts is fun to play, and has a good story, it shouldn't matter where it's from, or that it has Disney in it, is kind of what I'm saying.