emotion in Western RPGs?
- Thread starter VRaptorX
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On reflection, I realize I shouldn't have said "I agree 100%," that was a little misleading, I meant I just agree with the whole classification-based-on-locale is bad thing, I kind of missed the rest (hey, I was in a hurry to get out the door). ^_^;Seldon2639 said:
Exactly, the holding up of FFVII as representative of the entire Japanese RPG genre. Apparently, not only are there only two types of RPGs (JRPGs and non-J RPGs), but there are also no JRPGs apart from FFVII at all. Wow, now stereotyping is even easier.
Well, you know how it is. When a story I like is full of clichés and stereotypes it's "forgivable," but when something I don't like has its share of clichés, suddenly they're mock-worthy. :-D
Sadly, given how many of the posters here feel they need to agree with (and repeat) everything Yahtzee says, I don't see that being dropped anytime soon. Why do you think every thread on this forum that has anything to do with RPGs inevitably turns into an FF-bashfest in the first place?
Yeah, but I think that's more because they are ground out on the cheap as disposable entertainment. From what I've seen, they simply lack 3-D animation, since they do often have voice acting. But if you are talking about choice and consequences and Japanese games, they are there, they just aren't in the prestige areas of the gaming industry. Of course, I may be mistaken. I'm not the otaku/fujoshi I used to be.VRaptorX said:
The fact that a group of people tout a particularly poignant example of something isn't proof that it is the only example. You should look through the other threads arguing that FFVII isn't that great, and saying that the emotional content of FFVI was better. There are great examples from Fire Emblem, from Disgaea. If I reference having laughed at a particularly funny joke in a movie, would that indicate to you that I only found one thing funny?Copter400 said:
We've already had that particular argument outRazzle Bathbone said:
. All I'm saying is that if I'm forced to invent the entire underlying motivation, I personally lose interest. I'm not saying I need a lot. Tell me I'm a Jedi who needs to regain my powers, or that there's a Darth something-or-other to deal with. I can work from there. If it's "do this, if you would, even though you're escaping from jail and have no real reason to", I lose interest. It stops feeling like a game, and starts feeling like an MMORPG. Which, frankly, if I wanted to play WOW, I'd do it online with other people.If I'm supplying all the imagination, couldn't I just buy some action figures, and get the job done entirely myself?
I think I see where you're going with this...Seldon2639 said:
Stories are about characters. You can't make a good story with a drop-in protagonist. This is an issue for interactive video-game storytelling because many players also want to be able to do something to define the characters they're playing.
I think the best way to do it is to create games with firmly-established character backgrounds but flexible personalities. Games like Knights of the Old Republic or Jade Empire, where you have your circumstances driving what you have to do but you still have some flexibility in your emotional responses -- especially if your own choices begin to matter more than your initial circumstances as the game progresses. (Though those two would be a lot better if Bioware didn't have a weird obsession with Manicheism.)
Torment's my hands-down favorite CRPG in terms of story (gameplay? not so much) because the situation is so tightly intertwined with the character. The whole game's about exploring yourself -- who you were and what you are is the big mystery at the heart of the game, and almost everything you interact with has been touched by your previous selves.
That also gives it a strong emotional punch. You're pretty free with how you want to make your character act while you're playing him, which helps to build empathy for the protagonist, but then you learn about all this stuff that he -- and, by extension, you -- have done in the past, and some of it's pretty devastating. Inspiring regret is damn hard, and Torment does it.
-- Alex
For some reason I sometimes think that if I re-state something in just exactly the right way, people will see my point and agree with me. Not terribly bright, I know.Seldon2639 said:We've already had that particular argument out
Just curious: do you experience this problem in pen-and-paper RPGs too? Does the GM usually provide character backgrounds for the players? I'm used to the opposite; the players create their characters and the GM devises plot hooks to get each of them into the action.Seldon2639 said:
Now if only CRPGs could do the same thing...
No real reason to stop the EVIL DEMONIC HORDES of OBLIVION from DESTROYING the EMPIRE? I mean, supposedly your character lives there too.Seldon2639 said:
(laughs) Augh, you said the M-word!Seldon2639 said:
I hate the very idea of dealing with griefers so much, I won't even go near one of those things.
Besides, you can't save the world in WoW. The story's not about you.
a) Action figures are freakin' expensive, man.Seldon2639 said:
b) The game provides visuals, sound, conflict, and NPCs to interact with. All you have to do is create the protagonist. As you say, we've been here before, and this is pretty much what it comes down to. You see this particular characteristic of wRPGs as a weakness, while I see it as a strength.
For me, if I'm the one who creates the character, I identify much more strongly with him/her, which makes the game more intense and enjoyable for me.
For you, if you're the one who creates the character, you end up with a game full of "so what"?
Have I got it right?
For me, the "J"RPGs I've played/seen (not that many, I'll admit) don't really do it for me.
Let's put it this way: there's sympathy and there's empathy. Empathy is stronger because it involves identification.
Games in the style of Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, or Secret of Mana rely on scripted, linear sequences (such as cutscenes) for a lot of pivotal story development. Now, you can do a lot with this approach, but it still really hurts my sense of identification. I'm not driving when the really good stuff is happening, so it's harder for me to share the characters' feelings because I don't feel connected and involved.
-- Alex
Let's put it this way: there's sympathy and there's empathy. Empathy is stronger because it involves identification.
Games in the style of Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, or Secret of Mana rely on scripted, linear sequences (such as cutscenes) for a lot of pivotal story development. Now, you can do a lot with this approach, but it still really hurts my sense of identification. I'm not driving when the really good stuff is happening, so it's harder for me to share the characters' feelings because I don't feel connected and involved.
-- Alex
You know, the traditional pen-and-paper "plot hook" technique is a pretty weak one, especially when used with plug-and-play protagonists (e.g. in a pre-written module or a campaign that the GM has prepared well ahead of having the player-characters available). The standard "plot hook" -- a rumor, a job from a stranger, a meeting with a throwaway character (even if he's actually your brother, that doesn't mean much if he was just now introduced into the story), a random event you witness -- is based on having a story over here and a character somewhere way, way over there and dragging the character to the story.Razzle Bathbone said:
Personally, I find techniques that grow the story around the character to be much more satisfying.
Of course, a video game can't quite do that, since the story has to be prepackaged, so instead you've gotta pre-build part of the character and work the story around that. For example, you're pretty free to define your character in the Baldur's Gate PC games, but you're also a Child of Bhaal, and that's really what's driving the games' storylines forward.
Both BG1 and BG2 start off with a big life-changing event that spurs your character to action. You could call that a plot hook if you want, but it's important to recognize that it's one hell of a huge hook buried so deep into your character that it's largely indistinguishable from your "backstory."
Kinda reminds me of what some pen-and-paper games call a "kicker," actually -- that's a big life-changing event that spurs the character into action at the beginning of the story (the big difference is that it's supposed to be player-authored, which of course Baldur's Gate can't really support).
Games like Bloodlines, Neverwinter Nights, Deus Ex, and Jade Empire start off in very much the same way.
-- Alex
I don't see how anyone who claims to like actual roleplaying can be satisfied with the patronizing faux-nonlinearity that so-called "Western" RPGs present you with. The limits of computer gaming at the moment prevents you from having any kind of actual freedom. It doesn't matter whether you have one preset story event to choose from or a dozen, you're still following a rigid script, and it doesn't matter what complex motivations you create for your character to DO those actions if it doesn't have any effect on the actual game. If WHY you make a choice doesn't affect anything to do with making that choice, it's not "nonlinear," it's "choosing between multiple linear paths."
@Razzle Bathbone:
I don't have the problem with pen-and-paper games, because I'm not just devising a personality (which has realistically no effect on the game), and then rationalizing why my character is doing what he does, I'm making a whole new person. I see WRPGs as a pale imitation of pen-and-paper. If everything in a WRPG were up to me, and all of my choices (from gender, to race, to a nuanced approach to whether my character is good or bad) made a difference, I would love it. The issue for me is that the core plot always has to be based around unchangeable elements. So, while you can join the assassin's guild, or whatever, you can't really change the direction of the storytelling. You can be anything from purely malevolent, to Mother Teresa, and you'll still end up having to do the same bloody things.
But, then again, I like a lot of the psychological games mainly: Orpheus, Wraith, Werewolf. In those, the personality I create almost universally drives the game. Instead of merely reacting to events (as you have to in even a WRPG) I'm shaping events, and creating them.
@ Alex_P
I understand your point, but I have to disagree with it. As long as some of the characters (NPCs, allies, enemies) have to be stock characters, I'd rather the entire thing be scripted. For me, I'd prefer things at the extremes, either fully player/GM controlled, or fully out of my control. Either let my actions propel the game entirely, or make it linear. I understand that it's difficult to empathize with some of the characters, but I think that makes them good characters, they're different, they're separate.
By the way, if the only plot hook for a pen-and-paper RPG being "you're approached in a bar", you've been playing with a pretty crappy GM, I've gotta tell you.
I don't have the problem with pen-and-paper games, because I'm not just devising a personality (which has realistically no effect on the game), and then rationalizing why my character is doing what he does, I'm making a whole new person. I see WRPGs as a pale imitation of pen-and-paper. If everything in a WRPG were up to me, and all of my choices (from gender, to race, to a nuanced approach to whether my character is good or bad) made a difference, I would love it. The issue for me is that the core plot always has to be based around unchangeable elements. So, while you can join the assassin's guild, or whatever, you can't really change the direction of the storytelling. You can be anything from purely malevolent, to Mother Teresa, and you'll still end up having to do the same bloody things.
But, then again, I like a lot of the psychological games mainly: Orpheus, Wraith, Werewolf. In those, the personality I create almost universally drives the game. Instead of merely reacting to events (as you have to in even a WRPG) I'm shaping events, and creating them.
@ Alex_P
I understand your point, but I have to disagree with it. As long as some of the characters (NPCs, allies, enemies) have to be stock characters, I'd rather the entire thing be scripted. For me, I'd prefer things at the extremes, either fully player/GM controlled, or fully out of my control. Either let my actions propel the game entirely, or make it linear. I understand that it's difficult to empathize with some of the characters, but I think that makes them good characters, they're different, they're separate.
By the way, if the only plot hook for a pen-and-paper RPG being "you're approached in a bar", you've been playing with a pretty crappy GM, I've gotta tell you.
Here here, This also goes to the idea of the mute protagonist in other games. I've heard people on this board imply that there is a relationship between Gordon Freeman and Alyx Vance this is bull the player can in no way influence the responses of the characters and therefore create anything resembling a relationship with anyone in the Half Life games. You have no insight into what Gordon is actually thinking, or how his personality was formed. He is not really anything at all. Going back to WRPGS all of the alleged freedom granted to the player in some of these games comes at the expense of a really good plot, not to mention character development what you are left with is an MMO without the online which is just pointless. If I wanted to create the backstory etc I could just go write a story instead of trying to shoehorn my own thoughts into a game that is entirely unable to accept them since games are incapable of properly simulating reality. Its a complete waste of time and money and frankly intellectually insulting to have a game that forgoes character development and a plot in many cases under the guise of "putting players into the game."Sylocat said:
I'm well aware that it's not the only approach. It's still what looks to be the most common one.Seldon2639 said:
Yes, there's such a thing as a "plot hook" that offers more than one credible option, is thematically meaningful, and is truly focused on exploring the character rather than just finding an excuse to visit the next dungeon. That thing is so different from the other kind of "plot hook" that it's hardly fair to call them the same thing (if you really want another term, there's "bang").
And the crappy kind of "plot hook" is still all over the place in pen-and-paper gaming, because the standard mode of play is still all about the GM preparing a bunch of content before play and then trying to "hook" the players into exploring it. (Let's not forget about published adventures, which are still played by a substantial minority of the market -- those things aren't any less linear than a Bioware RPG.)
-- Alex
Gah! I can't stand this! Quit it with saying wrpg's are all Oblivion clones. I'm so bloody sick of the entire genre, if you can call it that, being defined by two games: Oblivion and Diablo 2. That'd be like me basing my oppinion of jrpg's on Dragon Quest Swords.
There are a couple of people in this tpic who've decided all wrpg's are non-linear braindead hack & slash adventures. It's simply not true. Certainly there's a fair number of em, but that's just akin to the jrpg markets constant regurgitations. But then there are also the wrpg gems out there which unfortunately it seems barely anyone has played. Then I've heard the "But most of those games are old!" argument from people who refuse to believe Oblivion doesn't represent the entire genre, to which I point out jrpg fans have the same flaw; having held games like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 and 7 and saying those are the perennial jrpg showdogs for every other to be compared to. What about Blue Dragon or Enchanted Arm? Those are popular jrpg's, they've sold alot, why can't I compare every jrpg by those games standards if you're going to be doing the same for western rpg's by only using recent examples?
Planescape: Torment beyond a doubt had the most amazing plot and character development I've ever seen in a game, rpg or not. A completely original story in a unique and strange setting that incorporates both freedom of choice as well as plot development? It can't be, but it is. Not only that but that same originality and excellence also seeps into the characters with npc's both unique and touching poping onto the screen regularly such as the chaste succubus Fall-From-Grace or the body snatching tiefling thief Annah-of-Shadows. Then there's the games main character who despite YOU choosing how to play him and what choices he makes, still manages to come across as an interesting character within the story that's even more touching because ultimately you can't help but feel responsible for him, attached, since you've been guiding him all along.
Viconia in Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn (No relation to the console games) was also a particularly well done character who completely defied the usual rpg romance storylines. The romance was entierly optional and indeed the most difficult in the game since Viconia would best be described as a moody tempermental evil ***** most of the time. The fact that players are given the freedom to not only choose whether to romance her or not but also whether they succeed or how they're going to go about it only adds to that characters depth and makes that one possible elusive happy ending so much more rewarding for those that've gotten it.
A few more recent examples of well written wrpg's with excellent plot and characters would be Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, where I found myself particularly fond of a half-deva cleric which joins you early in your adventures, not a romance simply a very well written character who I ended up sympathizing with. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines and most recently The Witcher which despite some botched english dialogue was still a fun romp, plus there's a patch in development to completely overhaul the english translation so that wont even be a problem anymore soon.
Haven't played Mass Effect yet so I can't really comment on it.
Freedom within the game worth does not negate plot or character development. A lesson the cinematic linear jrpg's could take a lesson from since often theres no connection to the characters for the simple reason it's not 'you' interacting with them nor do you even participate, you just control the little fellows from battle to battle and do the running.
Just wanted to throw that out there. I'm just really getting tired of seeing this debate over internet forums and the constant repetition of people stating wrpg's are all ye-old english style hack & slash with no story or characters worth mentioning, it simply isn't true.
There are a couple of people in this tpic who've decided all wrpg's are non-linear braindead hack & slash adventures. It's simply not true. Certainly there's a fair number of em, but that's just akin to the jrpg markets constant regurgitations. But then there are also the wrpg gems out there which unfortunately it seems barely anyone has played. Then I've heard the "But most of those games are old!" argument from people who refuse to believe Oblivion doesn't represent the entire genre, to which I point out jrpg fans have the same flaw; having held games like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 and 7 and saying those are the perennial jrpg showdogs for every other to be compared to. What about Blue Dragon or Enchanted Arm? Those are popular jrpg's, they've sold alot, why can't I compare every jrpg by those games standards if you're going to be doing the same for western rpg's by only using recent examples?
Planescape: Torment beyond a doubt had the most amazing plot and character development I've ever seen in a game, rpg or not. A completely original story in a unique and strange setting that incorporates both freedom of choice as well as plot development? It can't be, but it is. Not only that but that same originality and excellence also seeps into the characters with npc's both unique and touching poping onto the screen regularly such as the chaste succubus Fall-From-Grace or the body snatching tiefling thief Annah-of-Shadows. Then there's the games main character who despite YOU choosing how to play him and what choices he makes, still manages to come across as an interesting character within the story that's even more touching because ultimately you can't help but feel responsible for him, attached, since you've been guiding him all along.
Viconia in Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn (No relation to the console games) was also a particularly well done character who completely defied the usual rpg romance storylines. The romance was entierly optional and indeed the most difficult in the game since Viconia would best be described as a moody tempermental evil ***** most of the time. The fact that players are given the freedom to not only choose whether to romance her or not but also whether they succeed or how they're going to go about it only adds to that characters depth and makes that one possible elusive happy ending so much more rewarding for those that've gotten it.
A few more recent examples of well written wrpg's with excellent plot and characters would be Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, where I found myself particularly fond of a half-deva cleric which joins you early in your adventures, not a romance simply a very well written character who I ended up sympathizing with. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines and most recently The Witcher which despite some botched english dialogue was still a fun romp, plus there's a patch in development to completely overhaul the english translation so that wont even be a problem anymore soon.
Haven't played Mass Effect yet so I can't really comment on it.
Freedom within the game worth does not negate plot or character development. A lesson the cinematic linear jrpg's could take a lesson from since often theres no connection to the characters for the simple reason it's not 'you' interacting with them nor do you even participate, you just control the little fellows from battle to battle and do the running.
Just wanted to throw that out there. I'm just really getting tired of seeing this debate over internet forums and the constant repetition of people stating wrpg's are all ye-old english style hack & slash with no story or characters worth mentioning, it simply isn't true.
I think what it comes down to is that its impossible to construct a videogame that can truly replicate a GM and by extention, P&P roleplaying as a whole (shouldn't say never, but it hasn't been done yet and I do appreciate when they try). I like videogames, and I like P&P roleplaying. The games that get closest to that authentic RP experience are generally the ones I enjoy the most (Fallout is my favorite for that very reason).Sylocat said:
WRPGS are a diverse bunch ranging from oddly pretentious dungeon hacks like Oblivion, Diablo and any MMO you could name to absolute masterworks of story telling like Torment that still allow the player genuine input, to real attempts at replicating the experience of P&P like the afore mentioned Fallout.
My experience with JRPGs is that they are much more limited in their variety (although this may well be selection bias based on what the Japanese companies decide to send across the pond as mshcherbatskaya said). I at least messed around with dozens of them from the SNES to PS2 era and the vast majority could be accurately described as 'Part Movie, Part Strategy Game' in varying proportions. The only one I can think of that had any more than genuinely asked for player input on where the story should go was the last one I played, Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne.
Enh, I think Bioware's focus on polar-opposite choices and little morality meters really brings their games down (they're still at the top of the genre, though). It kind of turns a whole slew of little choices into one big choice -- do I want to act like the asshole or the saint? And usually you just decide that near the beginning and then stick with it through the whole game.Darth Mobius said:
It's kind of a thematic sledgehammer. I wish they'd soften it up a little. Torment and Bloodlines do a much better job of leaving individual decisions as individual decisions rather than turning every side-quest into part of some cosmic morality play (all the more remarkable since Torment actually does have an alignment system in it).
-- Alex
The real deal list of actual RPG's. JRPG"s will never hold a candle to these games in terms of Plot, Characters, Dialog(This is a big one), NPC's, Humour and badassness.
Fallout 1 And 2
Planescape: Torment
Baldur's Gate 1 and 2
Arcanum
Deus Ex
Vampire: The masquerade - Bloodlines
System shock 2
Fallout 1 And 2
Planescape: Torment
Baldur's Gate 1 and 2
Arcanum
Deus Ex
Vampire: The masquerade - Bloodlines
System shock 2