Entitlement

[him over there]

So a single developer that has a very close relationship with its fans did a complete one 180 on it's promises and then caved on modifying their product when it failed to live up to promised features. Not hype but things that were blatantly publicly promised. That isn't entitlement, that's saying you fucked up we want this fixed. At this rate I don't want games to be considered art, I pretty much want them to be all entertainment. Calling them art won't suddenly make them better, not being art won't make them suddenly shitty and regardless of what they're called people with a vision will still make "Art games" whether they qualify as art or not. No matter what they are they will stay the same, some will be crap, some will be awesome and quite frankly the ability to make crappy ones into something awesome by bitching about them is pretty sweet. Fuck artistic integrity bring on the awesome games.

Now, some people like me care about artistic integrity a lot, but even if you don't, I can't think consider this new ending a good idea. Think about it. Bioware is going to release "ME3: A Better Ending" as DLC, which means you'll be paying $10-$15 for an ending you already "deserved". If you buy this to make your game "better", then Bioware is getting $70-$75 of your dollars for what is essentially a $60 game (because what you will be buying is what you were promised to begin with), and they actually make a much higher profit margin (because developers reap a much higher percentage of DLC earnings).

So what's going to happen? Game developers will officially have a precedent that it is financially better for them to screw up the ending and get gamers to pay for it for DLC because they will make more money from it and people will pay it. If nothing else, you can't possibly tell me that getting one game to be slightly "better" because the last ten minutes will potentially make more sense (it's still impossible that they'll be able to make enough endings that everyone will be happy) is worth setting the precedent that will affect the consumer/developer relationship for years to come.

Except there really isn't a precendent regarding the consumer creator relationship being made. The consumer will continue to hold all of the power, the creator is reliant on us. The endings will be worth whatever we are willing to pay for them. If developers try this pathetically underhanded and transparent tactic hopefully people will be smart enough not to buy it. Also I wasn't encouraging changing the endings, that seems far too little too late and the fact that we can't just get over it is pretty lame. I was just saying that I would rather have devs sacrifice their integrity in order to cater to the audience.

 

[Falcon123]

Bioware is going to release "ME3: A Better Ending" as DLC, which means you'll be paying $10-$15 for an ending you already "deserved". If you buy this to make your game "better", then Bioware is getting $70-$75 of your dollars for what is essentially a $60 game (because what you will be buying is what you were promised to begin with), and they actually make a much higher profit margin (because developers reap a much higher percentage of DLC earnings).

So what's going to happen? Game developers will officially have a precedent that it is financially better for them to screw up the ending and get gamers to pay for it for DLC because they will make more money from it and people will pay it. If nothing else, you can't possibly tell me that getting one game to be slightly "better" because the last ten minutes will potentially make more sense (it's still impossible that they'll be able to make enough endings that everyone will be happy) is worth setting the precedent that will affect the consumer/developer relationship for years to come.

Oh no.

So far I've been holding out on buying ME3 until I see how this plays out.

But if Bioware/EA think that they can come out with some 'its-ok-guys-we've-fixed-it' DLC and put a price tag on it, not only will I not buy ME3 or its DLC, but I'm pretty much done with Bioware/EA products across the board from now until the foreseeable future.

I'm in the exact same boat, and I couldn't agree with you more. If the DLC isn't free, I won't be able to buy Bioware games in good conscience (though I will say this: as much as I want to blame EA for this...we really can't. EA handles the publishing. Developers are in charge of DLC. They have a very hands-off approach with Bioware, so it's unlikely they deserve any of the blame for this particular fiasco)

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Skip to 10:50

TLR EA/Bioware doesn't give a shit about you, they are not your friend, they are trying to suck every dollar they can out of you. Stop telling them it is ok to be lazy and mess up at the last second and/or deliberately chop the ending off to sell to you later. Stop telling them that they are immune to criticism as long as some paid off internet journalists throw out a few keywords like 'art' or 'entitlement'. They do not need you to stick up for them, stop defending them.

 

[Falcon123]

So a single developer that has a very close relationship with its fans did a complete one 180 on it's promises and then caved on modifying their product when it failed to live up to promised features. Not hype but things that were blatantly publicly promised. That isn't entitlement, that's saying you fucked up we want this fixed. At this rate I don't want games to be considered art, I pretty much want them to be all entertainment. Calling them art won't suddenly make them better, not being art won't make them suddenly shitty and regardless of what they're called people with a vision will still make "Art games" whether they qualify as art or not. No matter what they are they will stay the same, some will be crap, some will be awesome and quite frankly the ability to make crappy ones into something awesome by bitching about them is pretty sweet. Fuck artistic integrity bring on the awesome games.

Now, some people like me care about artistic integrity a lot, but even if you don't, I can't think consider this new ending a good idea. Think about it. Bioware is going to release "ME3: A Better Ending" as DLC, which means you'll be paying $10-$15 for an ending you already "deserved". If you buy this to make your game "better", then Bioware is getting $70-$75 of your dollars for what is essentially a $60 game (because what you will be buying is what you were promised to begin with), and they actually make a much higher profit margin (because developers reap a much higher percentage of DLC earnings).

So what's going to happen? Game developers will officially have a precedent that it is financially better for them to screw up the ending and get gamers to pay for it for DLC because they will make more money from it and people will pay it. If nothing else, you can't possibly tell me that getting one game to be slightly "better" because the last ten minutes will potentially make more sense (it's still impossible that they'll be able to make enough endings that everyone will be happy) is worth setting the precedent that will affect the consumer/developer relationship for years to come.

Except there really isn't a precendent regarding the consumer creator relationship being made. The consumer will continue to hold all of the power, the creator is reliant on us. The endings will be worth whatever we are willing to pay for them. If developers try this pathetically underhanded and transparent tactic hopefully people will be smart enough not to buy it. Also I wasn't encouraging changing the endings, that seems far too little too late and the fact that we can't just get over it is pretty lame. I was just saying that I would rather have devs sacrifice their integrity in order to cater to the audience.

I guess whether one believes devs should sacrifice integrity to make their audience happy is directly related to whether you see games as art and to what degree that matters to you. I'd much rather keep the devs artistic vision intact, even if it didn't work (and in this case in most certainly didn't) because next time, it might, and allowing creators to create the games they wish gives them the ability to make more artistically and mentally stimulating games that are also fun. I don't know. To me, that's just more important than giving one game a potentially better ending (and let's face it, nothing they do will make everyone happy; it's just not possible to create perfect endings for everybody given the vast range of player experiences).

I will disagree with you on one point, however; this will set a precedent. Bioware is the third most influential game developer in the world right now, and the industry takes notice of everything they do. If they get away with selling a "better ending" DLC (and they likely will, given how many people have demanded it), other developers will take notice, and they'll offer to "fix" any problems players have with their games for a fee, essentially hiking up the standard price of games and giving developers a larger percentage of the profit. I could see it becoming the next project ten dollar, except worse. That's what scares me most about this whole thing; so many Mass Effect fans are unwilling to look at the long-term ramifications of this action

 

[Falcon123]

anc[is]
Skip to 10:50

TLR EA/Bioware doesn't give a shit about you, they are not your friend, they are trying to suck every dollar they can out of you. Stop telling them it is ok to be lazy and mess up at the last second and/or deliberately chop the ending off to sell to you later. Stop telling them that they are immune to criticism as long as some paid off internet journalists throw out a few keywords like 'art' or 'entitlement'. They do not need you to stick up for them, stop defending them.

Who's defending Bioware in this manner? No one is saying the ending was good or that they don't deserve the backlash they're getting. The argument is over whether DLC fixing the ending should exist and its ramifications on the industry as a whole long term. I'm going to have to ask for some more explanation on your point, because calling fans entitled for demanding a new ending is not the same as defending Bioware's poor handling of the situation...

 

[boag]

Do I really have to repost the picture of an Apple and Picture of a Fork analogy again?

oh well here we go.

Artist advertises a pictures of an apple

Buyer commissions picture of an apple

Ends up with picture of a fork

Buyer complains that he wants a picture of an apple

Artist says reviewers loved the picture of the fork, which he gave them for free

More Buyers complain that they want picture of an apple, not the picture of a fork.

Artist says he might make a transparency add on, that might have an apple that people can put on their picture of the fork.

Some Buyers are ok with that, because they can get the picture of the apple, other buyers say that the complainers are ruining the picture of the fork.

Some Internet reviewers say the complainers have ruined the artistic integrity of the artist for making him draw an apple add on to the fork picture.

 

[Callate]

entitlement en-ti-till-ment noun;

"Your perspective on the subject is something I assume by default has no value; ergo, shut up."

 

[Tono Makt]

Here's my 2 cents:

What bothers me about all the rage concerning Mass Effect 3's ending, is that people seem to ignore everything leading up to the ending because the ending is bad.

The Mass Effect series is like going on a series of dates with a pretty girl. The first date, things go well. She's cute, she's into some of the things you're into (but not all), she's smart and she doesn't want to go see a chick flick. It's a pretty fun night, and she says she'd like to see you again, and gives you a chaste kiss on the cheek.

The second date, you go to dinner. Fantastically, you find that the food she wants the most turns out to be the most inexpensive on the menu, so you can spring for wine. The conversation is great better than the first night. And while you find she's got some opinions that don't mesh with your own (and you've argued passionately against those sorts of opinions from people you don't like), the entire package tones that down. Then you go off to a concert and have a blast - more because she's having fun dancing than because you like the music. It's just a fun time, and the little annoying things aren't nearly as annoying as they normally would be. At the end of the night, she gives you a full on kiss... and doesn't move away when you accidentally brush up against her breasts.

Then the third date comes and it's full on awesome time. She's dressed in a slinky black dress, you're in a shirt and tie (a tie! a TIE!!) and you've made reservations for a 4 star restaurant. You've been saving up for this for a while, and you've got the entire evening planned out. The conversation is fantastic; you actually voice your disagreement with some of her opinions, and she answers you with intelligent reasons why she holds them. While this doesn't make you agree with her, at least you see where she's coming from and can respect it. The waiter is perfect, and partway through dinner he brings a beautiful red rose for her, hinting that it was actually your idea and it thrills her. The meal is beautifully done, and comes with a dessert that you didn't expect because you didn't read through the full menu as carefully as you should. (you make a mental note in the future to do so, but secretly you are ecstatic because it makes you look even better in her eyes) At the end of the meal, the bill comes and it's actually less than you expected, so you can give the waiter a larger tip than you normally would, showing how generous you are.

Instead of going out to a show, she asks you to take her back to your place, and you do. Back at your place (which isn't as neat and clean as you had hoped, since you didn't expect to bring her home tonight) the two of you start making out. And my god but she is hitting everything perfectly. Every fantasy you had about this moment is coming true as if she truly is what you think she is. While she's not perfect, she's putting herself out there to make you feel as good as she can. (sure, a few missteps. long nails, bit of pulling of body hair, awkward bumping of heads, too much teeth, little things that are easily forgotten a moment later) The least you can do is return the favour, and so you slowly pull down her panties and...


SSSSSSPPPRRRRROOOOOIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!

Penis.

 

[Zeraki]

You are no longer entitled to be surprised when Bioware games turn out to be crap. They haven't made anything good since Dragon Age: Origins.

I always felt kind of 'meh' about Dragon Age. I enjoyed it, but I basically just played it to kill some time before Mass Effect 2 came out, which I was very happy with. I was actually pretty happy with Mass Effect 3 as well, until I got to the horribly phoned in and nihilistic ending... and Tali's face reveal(which they shouldn't have done it at all) and the 'Galaxy At War' crap basically breaking the game down to numbers instead of decisions. Mass Effect 2 did the "epic final battle" much better than Mass Effect 3 did... Human-Terminator-Reaper-Baby aside.

 

[xorinite]

No. Mass Effect 3's story may be unsatisfactory (I haven't finished it, yet, but that's not the point), but that doesn't mean it should be changed.

Your argument loses all credibility when your admit you haven't even experienced the part people are upset with.

Rattling on about it being an artistic medium is irrelevant. Its an unfinished product, of course they should finish it in patch, they should have finished it before release.

Also like everyone else who espouses this argument you assume the developers were happy with and intended to release that ending, I don't do them this disservice. Inviting the developers to try again is something we should do, if anything it should be seen as a compliment that we think they are capable, and would want to do much better.

It should be left to be what it is, and to change it because you don't like it, is effectively censorship. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censor)

No it isn't.
If I write a report on something and its bad, and someone asks me to try again, its not censorship. Its a request, no matter how loudly and aggressively its voiced its still just a request. It can be ignored.

I also think that calling this censorship trivialises the suffering of people who are oppressed with genuine censorship, where they cannot even publish a leaflet without being hunted down and thrown in jail, or where owning a typewriter carries the death penalty.

You are really suggesting this is the same as asking a developer to try again?

Alternatively, think if you wrote a story that people felt had a lackluster ending. You mulled over it for weeks and felt that is the appropriate ending for your story.

Evidence that the developers are all perfectly happy and satisfied with the ending like you suggest?
Oh and please don't tell me "well they released it, of course they are happy with it" because Origin wasn't happy with Ultima 8, it was full of bugs, they had to cut tonnes of stuff, and beyond that it didn't even come close to the artistic vision they wanted to convey.
They released anyway, it happens all the time in the gaming industry. Everyone reading this can likely cite their favourite example of this.

We even have developers themselves saying they weren't happy with it, so suggesting they mulled it over and felt that it was appropriate is demonstrably wrong.

You can't petition filmmakers to change endings. You can't petition author's or TV writers, either.

Yes you can. However no equivalence of DLC exists for films, so it's a lot harder for them to do, but they will often change things in remastered or special editions of those films.

One example; Neil Degrasse Tyson was very upset by the sky in titanic, so he complained to James Cameron, and in the Anniversary version they changed the sky.

Here it is, always amuses me, and its relevant to this subject.

 

[Something Amyss]

If I am promised a product that does X, I'm entitled to a product that does X, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund. If I am promised a product that does not do Y, I am entitled to a product that does not do Y, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund.

If only we could get people to ditch the "don't like how it turned out" strawman and run with this. It would save a lot of time and effort.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Who's defending Bioware in this manner? No one is saying the ending was good or that they don't deserve the backlash they're getting. The argument is over whether DLC fixing the ending should exist and its ramifications on the industry as a whole long term. I'm going to have to ask for some more explanation on your point, because calling fans entitled for demanding a new ending is not the same as defending Bioware's poor handling of the situation...

Only about 80-90% of the opposition. The thread title is one of the two words you can just parrot in order to shoot down anyone who wants it changed.

 

[Savagezion]

SSSSSSPPPRRRRROOOOOIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!

Penis.

LOL, dude halfway through reading the 3rd date I was already planning on quoting you and having it end with "she has a penis". I didn't think you were gonna take it there originally. I agree completely but for some reason I thought you were going to go with something more mild like she is married or something. I agree though, having her have a penis is equivalent.

The end has actually made Mass Effect series go from my top 3 favorite games to somewhere under around top 20-25. The ending alone does that. It invalidates everything.

 

[Sylveria]

When we buy a game (new), we are entitled to a good game. But if it isn't good, or just doesn't tickle our particular fancy, then we just learn our lesson. We get more critical about future purchases and we move forward, because that particular game didn't meet our expectations. If we don't like it, we should simply move on. To mindlessly ***** is unhealthy. Criticize, of course, but do it constructively.

Another article about entitlement... despite most people using it wrong or misapplying it. It's a publisher guilt term. They use it to make YOU, the consumer, the bad guy for complaining about their shoddy product. Sadly, many apologists have jumped on this train, in essence, saying they will happily sacrifice their consumer rights to white-knight for someone who couldn't care less about you. After all, you're a white-knight, they don't have to please you, you're pleased by everything they do.

Games are a consumer product. You, usually, spend money and get something in return. If a product fails to meet consumer expectations due to false advertisement or poor quality, the consumer's have the rights under-law. In most every other case, if you buy a consumer product that fails to meet expectations you can return it. The FTC complaint is the direct result of ME3's fraudulent advertising. Disgustingly, people dismiss this as bitching because it's a game instead of anything else. I've even seen supposed game journalists go as far to say "Hey, buyer beware," when that is basically the rallying cry of the snake-oil salesman. Fortunately, in a basically unprecedented event, certain retailers have decided to allow returns on the game, likely because of the pressure given said FTC complaint.

Frankly, I'm glad ME fans have gone this far. Maybe next time the developers and publishers will think twice before they slap together parts of the product then plan DLC later to "fix" it.

 

[Falcon123]

anc[is]

Who's defending Bioware in this manner? No one is saying the ending was good or that they don't deserve the backlash they're getting. The argument is over whether DLC fixing the ending should exist and its ramifications on the industry as a whole long term. I'm going to have to ask for some more explanation on your point, because calling fans entitled for demanding a new ending is not the same as defending Bioware's poor handling of the situation...

Only about 80-90% of the opposition. The thread title is one of the two words you can just parrot in order to shoot down anyone who wants it changed.

But how is that a defense of Bioware? I'm not denying that Bioware presented a bad ending (and it truly was bad; I don't think anyone is denying that), but I do believe that changing the ending is the wrong move, especially given the long term ramifications such a move would have, and players don't have the right to demand a new ending just because they personally don't like it any more than I have the right to tell you how to do your job. You don't like it? Don't give them your money. But they don't owe you anything.

 

[Atmos Duality]

There is also a difference between marketing and honesty; when they market a game, they hype it up and deliver hyperbole. They can defend this by saying "these were our goals" or "this is our opinion." It's not a fact. It's also not a fact that the game sucked.

That is true, but it needs further clarity.

If something can be measured, even in boolean logic (such as the presence/absence of a feature) then it's grounded in objective reasoning. If I promise 30 different guns in my game, it had better have 30 different guns in it, no matter how small/great the differences between them.

Here, Bioware promised that the one of the key features was that the decisions of the player throughout the series would impact the final ending. That is measurable by boolean logic no matter how involved/removed those decisions are.

That's the sort of thing you want to look for if you're arguing for/against "False Advertising".

This is different from complaints about the qualitative elements of the ending ("It's sad/sucks/etc") since those are purely subjective and thus, not legitimate grounds for demanding a refund/changes/etc.

I don't own ME3, so any further judgment on my part is useless as it would be uninformed.

 

[Falcon123]

When we buy a game (new), we are entitled to a good game. But if it isn't good, or just doesn't tickle our particular fancy, then we just learn our lesson. We get more critical about future purchases and we move forward, because that particular game didn't meet our expectations. If we don't like it, we should simply move on. To mindlessly ***** is unhealthy. Criticize, of course, but do it constructively.

Another article about entitlement... despite most people using it wrong or misapplying it. It's a publisher guilt term. They use it to make YOU, the consumer, the bad guy for complaining about their shoddy product. Sadly, many apologists have jumped on this train, in essence, saying they will happily sacrifice their consumer rights to white-knight for someone who couldn't care less about you. After all, you're a white-knight, they don't have to please you, you're pleased by everything they do.

Games are a consumer product. You, usually, spend money and get something in return. If a product fails to meet consumer expectations due to false advertisement or poor quality, the consumer's have the rights under-law. In most every other case, if you buy a consumer product that fails to meet expectations you can return it. The FTC complaint is the direct result of ME3's fraudulent advertising. Disgustingly, people dismiss this as bitching because it's a game instead of anything else. I've even seen supposed game journalists go as far to say "Hey, buyer beware," when that is basically the rallying cry of the snake-oil salesman. Fortunately, in a basically unprecedented event, certain retailers have decided to allow returns on the game, likely because of the pressure given said FTC complaint.

Frankly, I'm glad ME fans have gone this far. Maybe next time the developers and publishers will think twice before they slap together parts of the product then plan DLC later to "fix" it.

I'm afraid you're confusing interviews made months before the game's release with guarantees made about the product. 99% of the game is exactly what you would expect Mass Effect to be. You got the third Mass Effect game with your purchase: exactly what you were promised. Everything else was hype, speculation, or comments made by individuals before the product was completed that in no way are a guarantee of the final product. If they said the game cured cancer, that would be false advertising. This is just a fan base who is angry that the ending didn't live up to expectations (despite the fact that they was no way they could possibly have made an ending that satisfied everyone) and making irrational demands that will have long term implications that none of them want to deal with. They're short sighted at best.

And actually, waiting to see how a game turns out before buying it is not a "snake-oil salesman" tactic. That's just responsible buying strategies. I don't buy anything without reading reviews or learning more about the product. If I buy something and don't like it, regardless of what kind of product it is, I either return it or refuse to buy more of them in the future. If you're mad, stop buying Bioware products. That's fair. But what's not fair is demanding that people change their own artistic vision according to what you want. Don't like the vision? Don't buy the game. That simple.

And remember, buying the DLC that "fixes" everything only gives more money to the developer that you seem to oppose so deeply. And if people don't buy it, then why do you care that they make it? And if it is made, people will buy it, and Bioware will learn the opposite lesson; as long as they fix it later, people will keep giving them money. That precedent will affect gaming far longer than people will remember why they hated this ending

 

[Fr]anc[is]

But how is that a defense of Bioware? I'm not denying that Bioware presented a bad ending (and it truly was bad; I don't think anyone is denying that), but I do believe that changing the ending is the wrong move, especially given the long term ramifications such a move would have, and players don't have the right to demand a new ending just because they personally don't like it any more than I have the right to tell you how to do your job. You don't like it? Don't give them your money. But they don't owe you anything.

Shooting down people attacking Bioware is defending Bioware. It's an escort mission. I think people have the right to demand whatever they want. Supply and demand is economics 101, its how the world works. However, EA doesn't have to do anything with those demands, and I think this is the point a lot of ME3 arguments miss. If they want to leave the ending alone, they can, nobody has a gun to their head. But they have to live with the consequences: pissed off former consumers, bad PR, and lost sales. Your statement makes no mention of EA/Bioware's actions, so it reads as if you are saying "shut up and be thankful or whatever they graciously decide to give you" and THAT is insulting.

 

[The Heik]

Can we stop with analogies that make no sense?

EDIT: Ok, I'm looking at my Deus ex: Human Revolution box, and it says "a perfect mix of action and role play."

It is not perfect. Do I deserve my money back? No, because it's opinion.

And marketing. I think you guys are partially mad because your idealistic vision of Bioware was shattered when ME3 didn't live up to some expectations.

I really hate that people keep think that the majority of the fans are mad that that the ending didn't live up to expectations. To be honest, most of us have stated that we are mad because we were lied to, that we were outright told that specific facets of the ending would happen in a certain way, only for those statements to prove entirely false, in fact doing a complete 180 in certain cases. That is false advertising, hence the complaint to the FTC.

I knew that the end to ME3 wouldn't be one of those idyllic scenes where the good guys get one of those fairy tale endings. Throughout the entire game (and the series come to mention it) people have died by the thousands, millions and billions. Worlds have been shattered, friends have been lost, and galactic civilization has been brought to the brink of annihilation. No one is coming out of that smelling like daisies. What I expected was that the ending would stay true to the primary themes that Bioware had established, that they would give some sort of weight to the decisions I'd made and the time I'd put into the whole thing, much like they did with ME1 & 2. The ending could have been a sad one, but so long as it had made sense, then I wouldn't have really minded at all. That is not what I got though (see the hundreds of threads people have made on this for all the details because I'm really tired of explaining the details again and again)

Also, speaking as a future member of the gaming industry, that artistic expression stuff Bioware's using to "validate" their product is complete bullshit. Artistic expression means that you have the right to make any product you wish. However, you do have to present it as such. You can't promise someone one thing, then give the customer something different after they have given you their money. Gaming for all it's artistic potential is still a business, and as such the companies have to at least try live up to their promises, else they will lose capital and more importantly reputation, which is the lifeblood of any artist. If people know that a company does not live up to it's promises, then they will not want to by the company's products. No money, no games, and as such no artistic expression.

Aside: And just to mention, if you don't know what the ending is yet, then you don't get to judge other people's reactions to it because you lack the actual contextual information necessary to get a clear picture on the whole situation. What you're doing is akin to trying to tell a brain surgeon how to do his job because you read once read a medical journal.

 

[coolbeans21]

And remember, buying the DLC that "fixes" everything only gives more money to the developer that you seem to oppose so deeply. And if people don't buy it, then why do you care that they make it? And if it is made, people will buy it, and Bioware will learn the opposite lesson; as long as they fix it later, people will keep giving them money. That precedent will affect gaming far longer than people will remember why they hated this ending

Have they established they would be charging for ending DLC? If its geniune content alla "Broken Steel" then fair enough, But I assumed they will slap an epilogue on the end and patch it in for freesie.

Also didn't the fallen steel dlc for fallout 3 set this precedent you speak of already?