Escape to the Movies: Captain America

QuiB25

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Jul 7, 2010
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
OK, I don't want to sound overly cynical and full of bile, but Bob's gushing review has instantly got the anti-hype hairs on the back of my neck raised like a lion's mane. Maybe it's because I only really enjoy the 'ironic' comics he seems to be lambasting in this review, maybe it's because I've never understood the appeal of Captain America beyond jingoism and propaganda, but there are a few specific points I'd like to address:

The idea that a lack of irony makes the film better. While I agree that not all films need to portray a cynic's view of life, and that there is room for more optimistic, 'naive' output, I'd say that the superhero genre is hardly worthy of such an appraisal. I realise I'm going to anger a lot of hardcore comics fans with my next few statements, but oh well. The biggest reason most superhero movies are rubbish (and most of them, when you look past the special effects, are rubbish) is because the fundamental idea behind superheroes and their antics is a bloody stupid one. This is a point that has been made by critics, commentators, and even comic writers themselves. As Alan Moore himself said, "Watching your parents get gunned down in front of you would probably lead to a lifetime of therapy. It wouldn't lead to someone dressing up as a bat and beating up criminals."

The only reason comics have the standing they do currently is a) because they're a relic from an era decades gone where inconsistent characters and nonsensical plots didn't stop them from geing read by practically every boy in America, and b) they provide good movie-fodder. The actual ideas behind most superhero comics are laughably naive, highly illogical, and often times flat-out bizarre. A guy gets bitten by a radioactive spider, somehow develops mutant powers from this, so decides to spend his life fighting anthropomorphised lizards and scientists with robot arms? Wha...?

Conversely, it is my opinion that cynicism and humour are the best things that ever happened to comic-book superheroes. The minute writers stopped trying to take their overpowered characters seriously is the minute they can instead start taking their stories seriosuly instead. Super-heroes are an inherently dumb concept. Highlighting how dumb that concept is, and using that as a foundation from which to tackle other concepts, is what's allowed super-heroes to be taken seriously in the mainstream, both as characters and as stories. The Ur-examples in comics are of course Watchmen and The Dark Kinight Returns. Both comics were built out of irony and cynicism, and in doing so, were able to tackle storytelling with a maturity and a level of thematic content that simply hadn't existed before. Christopher Nolan has been equally cynical and 'ironic' with his interpretation of Batman: the Dark Knight is essentially a crime film with a couple of genuinely psychotic costumed characters involved. And it is immeasurably better than any Batman film of the Nineties. On the other hand, Kick-Ass is a film with just as many ironic sensibilities. However, instead of trying to play it sombre, it plays everything for laughs. The main character is a hero-wannabe who repeatedly gets his arse handed to him, and his cohorts are psychos who dispatch bad-guys with all the subtlety of a Kill Bill picture. And up until the end, it works.

So when Bob says that Captain America is 100% 'irony free', it makes me worried that instead of investing in a narrative that actually has any weight, emotion or meaning behind it, the producers have simply elected to base their film around the same kind of soap-opera trash storytelling that make comic-books ridiculous for so many. It's a story based around American involvement in World War II, which instantly lends itself to both the onscreen action, but also the kind of strong-storytelling that can have a real emotional impact on audience members. Not only that, but it's a movie about America fighting back with a blonde haired, blue-eyed, stupendously buff super-soldier leading the fight against the Nazis. That right there is the definition of irony, and it provides all sorts of potential to examine the nature of icons, ideals and propaganda, and how they can all be subverted.

I don't mean to go off on one, but Bob said he couldn't really fault the film, which to me means he's putting it up there with films like The Dark Knight: Super-hero films which transcend the genre to become generally great films. If Captain America is simply an excercise in carrying over comic-book logic and storytelling onto the big-screen, then I'm going to call bullshit on his statement. And I don't care how many Marvel/DC fans I've angered by saying so.
Your prejudgement is pretty much dead-on. Ya it was refreshing to have a hero be an all-around good person. CA was fairly interesting and his golden morals felt like a relic from another time, since all we are used to are anti-heroes with serious emotional problems.

However playing the ridiculous premise straight faced, the story of a super-soldier dressed up as a flag fighting Nazis with magic lazer guns circa World War 2, was probably a bad idea. It obliterated any suspense of disbelief my friends and I could have had for all the lazy writing and general WTF moments in the movie. But the directors want me to take this seriously. So here's some serious questions.

Would Hitler really fund Hydra for a year without results, no questions asked? Is it really the best idea for CA to pick some random soldiers he rescued for his "super black ops, save the world" commando team? Could CA really successfully sneak into a fortified enemy base with a fucking bright red white and blue, "shoot me in the face" shield strapped to his back? Does the Red Skull have any defining traits other than "I'm evil and want to take over the world?" And, did you really just have CA's love interest walk in on him making out? (I facepalmed at that part.)

I'm not saying CA would even be a good movie with irony. It's a dumb, but well-meaning and fun action movie. But would it have been less of a mess if it had some tongue in cheek winks to the audience? Hell ya.
 

Metalrocks

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Jan 15, 2009
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saw it today and i rather find the movie...lets say... alright. it wasnt bad but i would not say its great.
at some parts i felt like they skipped few scenes, that gave me the feeling i missed something. also few plots were questionable like how red skull could stay away for over a year without any results for "der führer".
was also pretty SIFI with these weapons which reminded me strongly from RTCW.

so yes, the movie is alright to watch, but i would not say its as great as bob claims.
 

Genixma

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Sep 22, 2009
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Hugo Weaving it's like you came to us from the future and knew every movie that would be a success money wise even if it was horrible. And then went into them.

The Matrix, Fellow Ship of the Rings, The Two Towers, Return of the King, Reloaded, Revolutions, V for Vendetta, Transformers, The Wolfman, Revenge of the Fallen, Dark of the Moon, Captain America.

Sure Transformers wasn't all that great a film neither were the last Matrix. But...you get the picture.
 

YodaUnleashed

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Jun 11, 2010
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Well I went away and watched this movie based upon your the heaps of praise you lavished on this film and I can honestly say I liked it. It wasn't awesome, as you said, but it was good; it was a solid film. Above average lets say but below greatness, somewhere in the middle, good enough. I have to quote someone else in this forum who made some very pertinent criticism, one's I felt too.

Ariseishirou said:
Just came back from seeing it. It was alright. Not TDK or Iron Man good, but a far cry from Fantastic Four or Wolverine awful. I'd give this one a solid 3.5/5.

I would've given it a 4/5 if they hadn't completely abandoned the '40s aesthetic under the pretext that Stark and Hydra technology is just that much more advanced. Okay, sure, by what does this more advanced technology precisely resemble that of today's headsets/sniper rifles/etc.? Wouldn't Stark have built it with the design aesthetic of his own time? It seems a tawdry excuse for lack of creativity, frankly.

Also, the action is extremely uninspired. Much of it - like the motorcycle chase sequence - is jacked directly from other films, it isn't exciting because Captain America is never really in danger, ever, and most of it is written right out by a montage in the middle of the film.

The characters are severely underdeveloped. I get that Captain America is the quintessential Good Guy from Brooklyn who wants to join the army, sure, but who is Penny? Why is she there? What does she do for the research team? We know she's a good shot, but why? Where did she learn it? What motivates her (aside from her crush on the hero)?

And what was the point of his merry band of ethnic stereotypes? They don't actually accomplish anything outside of the one montage, and even then it's almost always things the hero could have done himself. They could have been replaced by anyone with a gun.

Thor did all of these things right - maintaining the aesthetic, developing all of the main cast, having the minor characters contribute meaningfully - why didn't this film?
I also thought the villain was, despite being rightfully polarised, still far too two-dimensional and underdeveloped, even compared to the Cap and I didn't like the gratuitous montages of kick-ass moments with blazing explosions being set against Captain America as he rides his motorcycle through the air. Nonetheless, and despite it's awkward ending, I did enjoy the film for what it was: an exciting and fun, partially character driven romp through a science-fiction and superhero based WWII setting. I cared just enough for the characters and by extension the story to make me care about the action and spectacle. It's no Dark Knight but then I never went in expecting Dark Knight quality, despite MovieBob's recommendation.

None of my friends liked it however, in fact they outright hated it, though being less versed in film knowledge and what makes a movie tick, they probably disliked it for it's apparent overt Americanism us being British. In fact this probably touches or even is directly related to your point about irony, they probably didn't like it because it was all straight-faced and un-ironic in it's execution and they were, as one poster in this forum has pointed out, unable to suspend their disbelief for the apparent lazy writing and WTF moments that were present.

I was able to not take the film overly seriously, but just enough to make me care about what was going on. They however were trying to take it all seriously and find fault at every turn and so didn't enjoy it. I often find ones enjoyment of a movie depends upon ones frame of mind, not only when watching the movie but when considering the subject material. After all, one has to be in a different frame of mind for watching Schindler's List or The Godfather then they do if they want to watch Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. The former are more serious and considered in their approach, the latter more fun and spell-binding. That doesn't mean one should simply turn off ones mind for awful, mindless trashy films like Transformers or Green Lantern, but one can dial down the seriousness levels and enjoy a good romping super-hero movie, like Captain America, that is if one doesn't take oneself too seriously as is often the case with many people, especially movie connoisseurs. That's the thing with Captain America, he was a straight-faced superhero character and yet I didn't take him overly seriously in super-hero form. If he'd been ironic his cynicism would overruled any levity I felt for his character and the story, it would have made a film I wasn't taking seriously in a good way, a more serious film. In all I find it difficult to articulate clearly my feelings on this matter.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s in his post makes a very interesting, salient and well-rounded argument for why irony is so important in making super-hero based films work well, but at the same time, is there not room in the world for both ironic and un-ironic so long as there good?
 

AdrianRK

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Jul 21, 2009
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I just saw captain america the other day with a friend and I have to say I was seriously disappointed. I really expected to see a good movie and it didn't even come close.

Captain America is terrible... it's just an incoherent mess of special effects. The story is so basic it's just a ripe-of from any old B movie with superheroes and there is absolutely no character development. Almost every character is just a cardboard cutout including Steve Rogers... The love story is a cliche and the second part of the movie is full of random things that don't build up in the least bit to the final showdown.

There weren't any fleshed out characters to get you invested in the story, and everything is so rushed through that you don't care about anything on screen.

The beginning was OK (in a simplistic way) but I would never EVER call this movie good.

This movie was probably made for kids, so that was probably the main reason for why I didn't like it, I'm not the targeted audience..
.
Kids are easily impressed and aren't very smart so it's to be expected from a kids movie to be dumbed down, but I can't imagine why any adult would like this
 

duchaked

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Dec 25, 2008
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this movie was so amazing. took me over a month to finally watch it lol but then I went back to watch it again last Friday

it has a lot just beneath its surface, just have to look and feel a bit :D