Escapist Editorials: A Bug By Any Other Name

Mr. Omega

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Jul 1, 2010
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My issue with Bethesda isn't that they have all these awful bugs in Skyrim. It's that they consistently have all these awful bugs in their games. They are not learning. Hell, comparing Oblivion to Fallout 3 to Skyrim, it's getting worse.

I know it's not a big deal for most as much as it is for me, but when I see reports that the PS3 version can become unplayable just by playing the damn game, and that's just the worst of the lot, not counting the various bugs on all platforms, I do seriously wonder "why don't more people care about this"?
 

Trishbot

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rod_hynes said:
I don't hold games up as perfect. I enjoy them until I don't anymore. Bethesda makes games that I enjoy for YEARS... not hours, or months. but YEARS. For that I can forgive a few minor problems with the coding. I havn't had another game give me that in a long time. Not even DA: Origins, but it was really good too, just not as much replay value as ES games. Point is, Yes, I can forgive glitches or bugs or whatever you want to call them. But just because something doesn't work the way you want, or think it should does it mean that your game is broken. I never once saw a problem with red dead like the videos showed, or new vegas. So is it that wided spread or just a few videos going around that make people laugh.
Reports, so far, are that nearly all PS3 owners that play around 50-60 hours of Skyrim will encounter unplayable lag, like "ZERO frames per second" levels.

360 users are starting to report the same game-breaking lag around 120-140 hours into the game.

Apparently the problem is very wide-spread and, according to someone who worked on New Vegas, may not be possible to fully fix.
 

rod_hynes

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Jun 21, 2009
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Trishbot said:
rod_hynes said:
I don't hold games up as perfect. I enjoy them until I don't anymore. Bethesda makes games that I enjoy for YEARS... not hours, or months. but YEARS. For that I can forgive a few minor problems with the coding. I havn't had another game give me that in a long time. Not even DA: Origins, but it was really good too, just not as much replay value as ES games. Point is, Yes, I can forgive glitches or bugs or whatever you want to call them. But just because something doesn't work the way you want, or think it should does it mean that your game is broken. I never once saw a problem with red dead like the videos showed, or new vegas. So is it that wided spread or just a few videos going around that make people laugh.
Reports, so far, are that nearly all PS3 owners that play around 50-60 hours of Skyrim will encounter unplayable lag, like "ZERO frames per second" levels.

360 users are starting to report the same game-breaking lag around 120-140 hours into the game.

Apparently the problem is very wide-spread and, according to someone who worked on New Vegas, may not be possible to fully fix.
...And according to Bethesda, he doesn't know what he is talking about.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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rod_hynes said:
Trishbot said:
rod_hynes said:
I don't hold games up as perfect. I enjoy them until I don't anymore. Bethesda makes games that I enjoy for YEARS... not hours, or months. but YEARS. For that I can forgive a few minor problems with the coding. I havn't had another game give me that in a long time. Not even DA: Origins, but it was really good too, just not as much replay value as ES games. Point is, Yes, I can forgive glitches or bugs or whatever you want to call them. But just because something doesn't work the way you want, or think it should does it mean that your game is broken. I never once saw a problem with red dead like the videos showed, or new vegas. So is it that wided spread or just a few videos going around that make people laugh.
Reports, so far, are that nearly all PS3 owners that play around 50-60 hours of Skyrim will encounter unplayable lag, like "ZERO frames per second" levels.

360 users are starting to report the same game-breaking lag around 120-140 hours into the game.

Apparently the problem is very wide-spread and, according to someone who worked on New Vegas, may not be possible to fully fix.
...And according to Bethesda, he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Probably. But Bethesda also said they fixed the issue. Which is funny, considering they haven't.
 

OldNewNewOld

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Mar 2, 2011
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My friend asked my once why I hate Skyrim. Why I simply don't ignore it.

I couldn't explain it to him, but the last paragraph explains it for me. I had to restart a new character 4 times until I quit the game because of some random bugs with main quests where I couldn't finish them. 2 times I couldn't kill dragons. Seriously?

But that's not the point. My point is, I really really really like the whole idea behind Skyrim, but I had some bad luck with bugs and it simply disappointed me. Maybe I will start a new game soon, who knows. But for now I'm just not in the mood to give it a try.

As you said, if you like something and that something does something really bad, the disappointment is 2 times bigger.

(PC version here)
 

isometry

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Mar 17, 2010
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Susan Arendt said:
We forgive some buggy games while shunning others. Why?
If game A is a unambitious uninspired genre clone with a 10 hour campaign, and game B pushes the all-time boundaries of game development, I'm willing to tolerate more bugs / flaws in game B.

Also it's not like anyone is recording statistics related to bugs, it's all anecdotal and there is a lot of information bias. Like how unimportant and rare Skyrim bugs get more media attention than competition-breaking bugs in Battlefield and Modern Warfare.
 

isometry

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BiH-Kira said:
My friend asked my once why I hate Skyrim. Why I simply don't ignore it.

I couldn't explain it to him, but the last paragraph explains it for me. I had to restart a new character 4 times until I quit the game because of some random bugs with main quests where I couldn't finish them. 2 times I couldn't kill dragons. Seriously?

But that's not the point. My point is, I really really really like the whole idea behind Skyrim, but I had some bad luck with bugs and it simply disappointed me. Maybe I will start a new game soon, who knows. But for now I'm just not in the mood to give it a try.

As you said, if you like something and that something does something really bad, the disappointment is 2 times bigger.

(PC version here)
Hate and love are made of the same thing: passion.

Since you're on the PC version you can just use console commands to advance any quest that gets stuck. It won't even effect your steam achievements.

For an example, here is the page on the Bleak Falls Barrow quest, read the bottom section on Quest Stages.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Bleak_Falls_Barrow_(quest)
 

Machocruz

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Aug 6, 2010
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Susan Arendt said:
Machocruz said:
Susan Arendt said:
This isn't about reviews. This is about personal experiences. Do you give bugs a pass because some site gave a game a certain score? I'm guessing not.
It is about reviews. It's the catalyst for this topic. It's a response to the chatter all over the net about Skyrim (and "AAA" games in general) getting a pass for things "lesser" games are docked several points for. Are we supposed to believe recent controversy did not inspirethe creation of this editorial? What exquisite timing then!
It's not a response to anything but my own personal gaming experiences. I've been thinking about this since I played Dead Island. Why was I ok laughing off that game's bugs, but not others? It's not like the game is *that* remarkable, so why wasn't I more angry about e fact that it was broken? The release of Skyrim made me revisit the subject and think about it some more. I was wondering if others felt the same, and were more generous toward some bugs than others. So that's why I wrote it.
Fair enough.

My personal experience is that I judge things by the standards set by things similar to the thing in question.

While I can overlook bugs in a game/genre that have been traditionally janky (CRPGs, Arma series, PC games in general), I am not pleased with the recent trend of console games being shipped with bugs. First of all, most of these games don't have the (useful) complexity to warrant these bugs, but console games are just not supposed to be buggy. That's not the standard that console gaming set for itself. Bugs were there, but few and far between, and never game breaking, never preventing you from completing a goal or finishing the game. And NEVER in a Nintendo game, of all things.

Bugs have never stopped me from playing a game, but no game gets a pass with me giving it an A or 10, like so many reviewers seem to have no shame about doing. If western developers are going to dominate the console scene, they need to get with the standards for craftsmanship and leave the ambitious messes behind on PC. If that means only having 6 sq. miles of world instead of 13, so be it.
 

Machocruz

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isometry said:
Susan Arendt said:
We forgive some buggy games while shunning others. Why?
If game A is a unambitious uninspired genre clone with a 10 hour campaign, and game B pushes the all-time boundaries of game development, I'm willing to tolerate more bugs / flaws in game B.

Also it's not like anyone is recording statistics related to bugs, it's all anecdotal and there is a lot of information bias. Like how unimportant and rare Skyrim bugs get more media attention than competition-breaking bugs in Battlefield and Modern Warfare.
I really hope you're not suggesting Skyrim is pushing all-time boundaries of anything. Unless you just started gaming this year or something.
 

Trishbot

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isometry said:
Susan Arendt said:
We forgive some buggy games while shunning others. Why?
If game A is a unambitious uninspired genre clone with a 10 hour campaign, and game B pushes the all-time boundaries of game development, I'm willing to tolerate more bugs / flaws in game B.

Also it's not like anyone is recording statistics related to bugs, it's all anecdotal and there is a lot of information bias. Like how unimportant and rare Skyrim bugs get more media attention than competition-breaking bugs in Battlefield and Modern Warfare.
Not necessarily. On Bethesda's forums and their databases, they ARE recording the statistics of as many bugs as they can. The documented list of bugs and glitches in Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas are literally hundreds of pages long.

Websites ranging from IGN to 1up to Eurogamer have CONFIRMED the existence of many of these game-breaking bugs in Skyrim. It's not anecdotal or all information bias; there is a difference between an exploit in Battlefied or Modern Warfare and a wide-spread, game-ending glitch that supposedly every PS3 owner, and potentially 360 owner, will run into.

I also don't think Elder Scrolls pushed any boundaries. I mean, what has it done to push boundaries? Granted, I think the game (when it works) is fantastic, but it's no more groundbreaking than Oblivion was, or for that matter Morrowind. It's a prettier, more versatile version of prior games...

I really think it has a lot to do with brand-loyalty. I can deny that Skyward Sword has a game-ending glitch discovered too, though it's very hard to encounter, but that doesn't mean I should let that pass. Skyrim is broken; it needs fixing.

So let's http://fixskyrim.com/.
 

Scars Unseen

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May 7, 2009
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My disappointment with Alpha Protocol(and the disappointment does not outweigh my enjoyment of the game) is not that it is buggy, but rather that no patch is coming, ever. I know that it's popular for Obsidian fans to blame the publisher for the developer's failings, but Sega really makes it easy for us when they won't let Obsidian fix the game.
 

isometry

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Machocruz said:
I really hope you're not suggesting Skyrim is pushing all-time boundaries of anything. Unless you just started gaming this year or something.
I really hope you don't mean you can't see how Skyrim is an ambitious boundary-breaking game. Unless you just started gaming this year or something.

Trishbot said:
NWebsites ranging from IGN to 1up to Eurogamer have CONFIRMED the existence of many of these game-breaking bugs in Skyrim. It's not anecdotal or all information bias; there is a difference between an exploit in Battlefied or Modern Warfare and a wide-spread, game-ending glitch that supposedly every PS3 owner, and potentially 360 owner, will run into.

I really think it has a lot to do with brand-loyalty. I can deny that Skyward Sword has a game-ending glitch discovered too, though it's very hard to encounter, but that doesn't mean I should let that pass. Skyrim is broken; it needs fixing.
This is what I mean about information bias. "game ending glitch that supposedly every PS3 owner and potentially 360 owner, will run into." See how that's exaggerated as much as possible to fit the popular story that Skyrim is buggy? There is no statistical evidence by that statement, and I've seen plenty of posts from console players not having problems, but that gets swiftly ignored in favor of telling the popular story.

Sites like IGN and 1up know that "bugs in skyrim" is a popular story that people like, so they give it more attention that game-breaking bugs in BF3/MW3/Skyward Sword. "Bethesda makes buggy games" is an overused meme. It gets repeated constantly with exaggerations, and the posters defend their wild statements with an "everybody knows."

But who knows, I'm 100 hours into Skyrim and haven't faced any major bugs. I'm on PC so pretty much any problem I've heard about can be easily fixed using console commands, and even then I'm not running into problems. Then again, I'm a PC gamer who has plenty of experience fixing any issue I have with a game myself. What I worry is that the next Elder Scrolls game will have to cut features and simplify everything so that Joe Average doesn't get hurt when he tries to play it.
 

dessertmonkeyjk

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Nov 5, 2010
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When I encounter a few bugs you know what I do? Do you? I HAVE AN UNCONTROLABLE RA-- Actually, I make the best of it and play around with it. Maybe I'll get my hero to start moonwalking.

If it's a sequence breaker or rather excessive kind of bug then there's an issue. I don't mind so much when some dude starts dancing on the table while trying to hit something.
 

Machocruz

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isometry said:
Machocruz said:
I really hope you're not suggesting Skyrim is pushing all-time boundaries of anything. Unless you just started gaming this year or something.
I really hope you don't mean you can't see how Skyrim is an ambitious boundary-breaking game. Unless you just started gaming this year or something.
It doesn't break any boundaries at all. There is nothing in the game I haven't seen in Oblivion, Morrowind, Ultima 7, Gothic, Divine Divinity, etc.

Maybe this is why people give some buggy games a pass. They see shit that isn't there, and don't see shit that is there.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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Mr. Omega said:
My issue with Bethesda isn't that they have all these awful bugs in Skyrim. It's that they consistently have all these awful bugs in their games. They are not learning. Hell, comparing Oblivion to Fallout 3 to Skyrim, it's getting worse.

I know it's not a big deal for most as much as it is for me, but when I see reports that the PS3 version can become unplayable just by playing the damn game, and that's just the worst of the lot, not counting the various bugs on all platforms, I do seriously wonder "why don't more people care about this"?
Because it really is a losing battle when their PR guy constantly downplays the issue or calls another dev who worked on the engine a liar. They aren't fixing the PS3 version of Skyrim. Bethesda had a lot of loyalty from me and the broken PS3 port of Skyrim destroyed it.
OP: We give our favorite developers more rope than ones we don't know/are iffy on. Bethesda happened to take that rope and hang me with it this time. Luckily, I hate them less now because that copy of Skyrm netted me two awesome games at GameStop.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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rod_hynes said:
Trishbot said:
rod_hynes said:
I don't hold games up as perfect. I enjoy them until I don't anymore. Bethesda makes games that I enjoy for YEARS... not hours, or months. but YEARS. For that I can forgive a few minor problems with the coding. I havn't had another game give me that in a long time. Not even DA: Origins, but it was really good too, just not as much replay value as ES games. Point is, Yes, I can forgive glitches or bugs or whatever you want to call them. But just because something doesn't work the way you want, or think it should does it mean that your game is broken. I never once saw a problem with red dead like the videos showed, or new vegas. So is it that wided spread or just a few videos going around that make people laugh.
Reports, so far, are that nearly all PS3 owners that play around 50-60 hours of Skyrim will encounter unplayable lag, like "ZERO frames per second" levels.

360 users are starting to report the same game-breaking lag around 120-140 hours into the game.

Apparently the problem is very wide-spread and, according to someone who worked on New Vegas, may not be possible to fully fix.
...And according to Bethesda, he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Hines also said that they had fixed that particular issue a while ago. Which they never did.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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Susan Arendt said:
A Bug By Any Other Name

We forgive some buggy games while shunning others. Why?

Read Full Article
If the focus is on a central narrative, gamebreaking bugs can ruin that. They disrupt the pacing, they force restarts/retreads, they take you out of the setting... a story driven game lives or dies on its ability to pull you into the story and keep you there. Basically, story driven games must, to a degree, be continuous. And bugs disrupt that continuity.

But Skyrim doesn't focus on story. Lore? Sure -- but that's in the books, conversations, and other discrete snippets littered throughout the world (not a continuous narrative flow). The focus is on your character, and the ability to build and play him/her in each situation or encounter as you please. In a sense, it's the "modularity" of your personal story that allows bugs not to disrupt quite as much. And Dead Island, the focus is on the moment-to-moment experience of combat. Once again, discrete events filled with enjoyment.

Maybe it's the difference between a beaded ('modular') necklace and a braided ('contiguous') necklace. If a single bead breaks, you can look at the others until that bead is replaced. If a section of the braided necklace breaks, the whole necklace is useless until it's fixed -- and it's much harder to fix.

The contiguous nature of some games works against them, because it allows even small disruptions to have far-reaching influence over the experience. When it pays off, it pays off big (your BioShock and your Mass Effect type stuff), but when it doesn't, it's near-catastropic.

Games like Skyrim present content that represents a sprawling world with a continuous, interwoven historical narrative... but it presents the content in pieces, relying on the player to connect the dots. And that player-made "connective tissue" is harder to disrupt, even by fairly major bugs.

Add: I'm very with you on the feeling something idea, though. It's something I exploit with my students all the time: If you can't enjoy the music or the learning today, then get mad at it, so at least you're really "in it." The greatest sin is to feel nothing about what you're doing.