Escapist Podcast: 037: Directed vs Player Driven Narrative

[SgtJon117]

tbh I don't think they even needed 5 good endings or 1 amazing. I think a split of 3 good would have easily sufficed.

1) You prepared the best you could. As much peace and cooporation as possible. Largest fleet ever. Max (or fairly close to) War Assets etc. = You save the day yay!

2) You did a lot but not quite enough. You had enough War Assets to win the war but Shepard has to sacrifice himself in order to ensure victory.

3) You rushed through everything. Pissed off everyone. Those who aren't angry probably died off somewhere. Low War Assets. You utterly fail and Reapers win. Game over, try again next game.

Then at the very end a slide show like DA:O with a simple voice over doing a simple "You picked X. Here's how that panned out... You picked Y. Here's how that panned out... etc"

Maybe that's just me.

EDIT: Basically, a happy ending isn't a requirement just available as an option. You can have it if you put in the effort.

EDIT 2: Upon further listening I have to say aside from the outcome of the ending. They are in fact mechanically broken on a story writing level. If they have pride as writers it should at least be fixed on those grounds to repair the glaring plotholes and wonky writing. For further reading on this: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779/1

 

[Draconalis]

For March, 80 is hot. We were wearing hoodies and stuff a week ago, so we haven't mentally shifted to "warm" mode yet.

And yes, Texas wants to kill you. Coyotes, snakes, scorpions, spiders....*shudder*

80 is like, nice here, but at the same time... 40 is too damn cold, so I suppose temp tolerances are drastically difference.

And spiders are just terrifying... period.


And in other news, because I couldn't listen to the whole podcast last night.

With THAC0, your Armor class goes down because you're hurting their chance to hit you. They need to get a 15 to hit you, and you want fuck that up, so you add your AC to it, thus lower numbers are better.

It's simply addition and subtraction.

I am a 2nd edition guru, and I refuse to ever move on... mostly because I hate the d20 system. But I also hate how OP all the characters got in 3rd edition.

Subject change!

My wife is pregnant, and people tell me I need to stop cussing so much. I don't think it's going to happen.

But what I find hilarious, is that I never heard people talking about kids and gaming (user questions, Articles, people just talking about it) until my wife got pregnant and we decided to keep her... so now, when I hear these questions I'm like, "Yeah, I was wanting to know this too! This is relevant to me now!"

 

[Somebloke]

It may be worth remembering that that while Mass Effect 3 is the ending of Shepard's trilogy; If there is going to be spinoffs that takes place in the Mass Effect universe, after the ME1-ME3 events, there is going to need to be a post-trilogy stage, that is set in a similar way to every player, plus/minus this or that faction.

I have yet to play ME3, waiting for the price to drop, in sort of a quasi-boycott and I am trying desperately to fight spoiling myself before I do get to experience the game, but from what I have not managed to avoid overhearing:

Spoiler

... the game apparently has a bit of a "Brazil" ending, for Shepard, although also with a bit of the old: "hey, wait, what...?!" reversal in the last fraction of a second before cut-to-black.

That sounds like a possible setup for some potentially quite interesting post-main-campaign DLC storylines...


Also, from what I've half-overheard, every variation of the ending involves the mass relay network being destroyed.

This does indeed set a rather interesting stage for future stories. A common trope in these games is the traces-of-mythological-great-civilisations-of-ancient-days and this time we have actually got to live through one of the great cataclysms that divides eras.

If there are indeed spinoffs, it may be interesting to see how the no-longer galactic civilisations deal with their separation and how they attempt to reestablish contact (C'mon - they will; There are blue space nymphos out there
Everybody still have mass effect technology and if they manage to construct new relays, they should be able to deploy a new network as quickly as FTL travelling allows, but will there be attempts to be "more self-deterministic"?

 

[Uszi]

I'm sorry, but you guys are way over-analyzing something that's not that hard to figure out. People like a happy ending. This isn't rocket science. Hollywood figured this out decades ago.

BAM: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16 There's your in-depth analysis.

I found the comic hilarious, especially the last panel. I can't help but read it in Wrex's voice.

That said, it isn't an in depth analysis. Penny Arcade lampoons game industry news for laughs, and this was the funniest jab they could make on the issue--not the most accurate.

People aren't bitching because they wanted MORE choices. They are bitching because no matter what they do in the game, they get a downer ending.

"People," "they," etc are the operative words here. There certainly are people who are complaining about getting a "downer" ending. And there a lot of other people who have a lot of other complaints. For instance, my main reason for disliking the ending isn't that it was sad or that I didn't have enough choices, it was that all of my choices ultimately destroy the Universe of Mass Effect as it had existed up until the end of ME3. None of the options preserve or improve the status quo as it existed prior to the war with the Reapers---the status quo which I had just spent three games trying to defend, and most of Mass Effect 3 I spent improving (ending the war with the Quarians/Geth, saving the Krogan, etc).

My impression is that you either aren't reading what other people have said, or you're ignoring what other people have said, or you're assuming they're lying to you when they list other reasons.

I don't think you can generalize one set of complaints to the tens of thousands who have complained about the ending online, especially when there's no way for any of us to collect a representative sample of those complaints.

I get that you didn't want to spoil anything for Steve, but going on and on about "player agency" in the middle of the podcast is simply dishonest. It creates the impression that you believe that people are complaining because the story converged. They're not. They're complaining because the story converged in a direction they didn't want it to go, and they had no ability to avert it.

So.... are they complaining about the story converging, or aren't they? First you say its inaccurate to claim, "that people are complaining because the story converged." Then, you say, "They're complaining because the story converged..."

Anyway, using your words, how is complaining about the ending to a series (where player agency and control are the hallmark feature) ending in a way where the story converges in a way beyond player control NOT a complaint about player agency and control?

Also how is it dishonest to create "the impression that you believe that people are complaining because the story converged?" Stating that you believe something because of "X" is not dishonest. Stating that something is objectively so because of "Y," where "Y" is untrue or a misrepresentation, is dishonest.

An example of actual dishonesty is saying that all players are complaining simply because of the downer ending.

 

[Eric the Orange]

I'll be interested in seeing the BG enhanced edition as i missed the old school RPG Renaissance in the late mid 90s as My computer could not handle the games. I've been using GoG to play some of them but one that would be more agreeable with my modern computer would be nice.

 

[WarpZone]

Spoiler

Or the fact that the endings MAKE NO SENSE. They contain literal impossibilities within the Mass Effect lore itself(From a non-lore but common sense perspective I'd just like to point out that the synthesis ending would take orders of magnitude more energy than either the control or destroy endings), as well as teleporting characters, Joker doing something he would NEVER do, and entirely too much of a dreamlike state(Shepard getting Anderson's stomach wound, to name just one), that the only way any sense can be made from the ending is that assuming that it either once was, or is still meant to be part of something much bigger. Then there's the reversed numbering on the railings for the synthesis ending, a mistake that Bioware never made anywhere else in the game. Which means one of two things, either it was meant to be something more, or the ending was whipped up at the very last minute and shoved out the door.

But of course, according to you NONE of these things has to do with fan outrage and it's only because we wanted a happy ending.

My bad. I didn't mean to suggest that there weren't tons of smaller problems. I was just pointing out how lame it is to do a podcast about Mass Effect, directly acknowledge the fan reaction, and then not address anything the fans are complaining about, not even the obvious broad-stokes problems other venues have already openly discussed.

It comes across like they're attacking a straw man of the fan complaints, as if to say "Sorry, sponsors! We don't know why the metacritic score is so low!" Even though they made it clear they were trying not to spoil anything for Steve, it comes across this way because they avoid saying anything of substance. The voice of Gaming, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[WarpZone]

Sorry about the double-post, there was some kinda bullshit involving cross-site captchas that didn't want to load properly.

 

[bravetoaster]

also, i've met some reserved artists, and their art seems to be a way to vent their emotions in a controlled manner, or a means of observing the world...

More or less came here to say this. I'm very reserved (except with my wife or a few very close friends), so, to Steve and anyone else who doesn't understand introverts/reserved people: just because we're not prone to visible emotional displays or outbursts doesn't mean there's any less of an emotional response to things or we're less sensitive to or less driven by emotion.

Granted, I'd never self-identify as an "artist" (that'll never be my profession, nor am I arrogant enough to believe anything I've written/drawn/sculpted merits public display as art), but I enjoy various creative hobbies when I can find the time and energy for them.

 

[Azuaron]

This is what I've heard about Baldur's Gate Enhanced:

There will be Baldur's Gate (with Tales of the Sword Coast) and Baldur's Gate 2 (with Throne of Bhaal).

They are updating the graphics at least to Throne of Bhaal level for all of the Enhanced.

Some new content will be added.

Keeping 2nd edition rules.

 

[WarpZone]

For instance, my main reason for disliking the ending isn't that it was sad or that I didn't have enough choices, it was that all of my choices ultimately destroy the Universe of Mass Effect as it had existed up until the end of ME3. None of the options preserve or improve the status quo as it existed prior to the war with the Reapers---the status quo which I had just spent three games trying to defend, and most of Mass Effect 3 I spent improving (ending the war with the Quarians/Geth, saving the Krogan, etc).

Uh... sorry, maybe we're talking at cross-purposes here, but I consider what you just described an additional choice that leads to a happy ending. What did you think I meant?

I don't think you can generalize one set of complaints to the tens of thousands who have complained about the ending online, especially when there's no way for any of us to collect a representative sample of those complaints.

No, you're right. It's just that they're going out of their way to avoid mentioning even the big, obvious ones. My post was mostly expressing frustration that the gaming comic's throwaway joke had more to say than a half-hour podcast by the self-professed "voice of gaming."

So.... are they complaining about the story converging, or aren't they? First you say its inaccurate to claim, "that people are complaining because the story converged." Then, you say, "They're complaining because the story converged..."

I meant that it's what specifically happened after the convergence that pissed people off. Not a general "lack of content," but the fact that the content included was directly antagonistic to their ongoing gameplay experience.

Anyway, using your words, how is complaining about the ending to a series (where player agency and control are the hallmark feature) ending in a way where the story converges in a way beyond player control NOT a complaint about player agency and control?

It is. But they didn't go into deep discussion about it in the podcast, as we have done in these post. They just tossed around the words "agency" and "control" without actually relating it to anything that happens in the game, even the parts of the game that happen the same way to everybody.

Also how is it dishonest to create "the impression that you believe that people are complaining because the story converged?" Stating that you believe something because of "X" is not dishonest. Stating that something is objectively so because of "Y," where "Y" is untrue or a misrepresentation, is dishonest.

I view it as a straw man argument. I'm sure they didn't intend it that way, it just comes across as one, because in avoiding spoilers, they avoided weighing in on the controversy at all. You'd think the Editor-In-Chief would have seen this coming.

An example of actual dishonesty is saying that all players are complaining simply because of the downer ending.

I'll admit that was careless use of language on my part. I probably should have said something along the lines of "One complaint that comes up pretty consistently while paging through the reams of negative reviews over at metacritic is that the endings sucked. Not simply because they were sad, but because they were sad for reasons that lore, the ME universe's internal logic, and the past choices of the player suggest should have been avoidable." My bad.

 

[Susan Arendt]

Spoiler

Or the fact that the endings MAKE NO SENSE. They contain literal impossibilities within the Mass Effect lore itself(From a non-lore but common sense perspective I'd just like to point out that the synthesis ending would take orders of magnitude more energy than either the control or destroy endings), as well as teleporting characters, Joker doing something he would NEVER do, and entirely too much of a dreamlike state(Shepard getting Anderson's stomach wound, to name just one), that the only way any sense can be made from the ending is that assuming that it either once was, or is still meant to be part of something much bigger. Then there's the reversed numbering on the railings for the synthesis ending, a mistake that Bioware never made anywhere else in the game. Which means one of two things, either it was meant to be something more, or the ending was whipped up at the very last minute and shoved out the door.

But of course, according to you NONE of these things has to do with fan outrage and it's only because we wanted a happy ending.

My bad. I didn't mean to suggest that there weren't tons of smaller problems. I was just pointing out how lame it is to do a podcast about Mass Effect, directly acknowledge the fan reaction, and then not address anything the fans are complaining about, not even the obvious broad-stokes problems other venues have already openly discussed.

It comes across like they're attacking a straw man of the fan complaints, as if to say "Sorry, sponsors! We don't know why the metacritic score is so low!" Even though they made it clear they were trying not to spoil anything for Steve, it comes across this way because they avoid saying anything of substance. The voice of Gaming, ladies and gentlemen.

I have no idea why you're being so hostile towards us, especially when we devoted an entire podcast to the endings, including a variety of fan complaints.

 

[Slycne]

Am I wrong or is there really no other way to download the podcast other than iTunes? I don't use iTunes, but I also rarelly listen to podcasts on my computer, I listen to them from my phone while on the bus, work and school and during walks.

Unless I have missed some great download link, here is a humble request: Please make it downloadable straight to your computer as an MP3. I would use the crap out of that feature.

Yes, lower left hand side of the player there is a little podcast button. That will take you to an RSS page with download links, for whatever reason it doesn't work in Chrome but every other browser should be fine.

I wonder why reviewers and non-reviews seem to disagree so much. Over at Bioware's forums, a poll with 55,000 votes shows they majority (91%) want a different ending. There's a thread with 236,000 views comprised of people asking for new endings. On Amazon ME3 has, on xbox, 2 stars (527 reviews), on PC it has 2 stars (185 reviews). Side note, ME2 had 4-4.5 stars. Metacritic shows the same thing, if you read the reviews (even the good ones) people are complaining about the end. Everyone I've talked to at school says "the game was great but that ending was so bad, I've returned my game." That to me shows there's an issue. They shouldn't "patch" it but releasing DLC that supports the indoctrination theory would be pretty cool.

In general, I think reviewers are more willing to look at the product as a whole. That's not to say that someone's opinion that the ending ruined their whole experience is invalid. For example, I flat out stated in our podcast that I though the ending was broken, but I still think Mass Effect 3 is overall an great game. I genuinely believe that a lot of those 55,000 views or 236,000 page views are coming from a similar place of affection for the game and series. If people simply hated from start to finish we wouldn't see this much outcry.

 

[ARCTIC_EAGLE]

Spoiler

Or the fact that the endings MAKE NO SENSE. They contain literal impossibilities within the Mass Effect lore itself(From a non-lore but common sense perspective I'd just like to point out that the synthesis ending would take orders of magnitude more energy than either the control or destroy endings), as well as teleporting characters, Joker doing something he would NEVER do, and entirely too much of a dreamlike state(Shepard getting Anderson's stomach wound, to name just one), that the only way any sense can be made from the ending is that assuming that it either once was, or is still meant to be part of something much bigger. Then there's the reversed numbering on the railings for the synthesis ending, a mistake that Bioware never made anywhere else in the game. Which means one of two things, either it was meant to be something more, or the ending was whipped up at the very last minute and shoved out the door.

But of course, according to you NONE of these things has to do with fan outrage and it's only because we wanted a happy ending.

My bad. I didn't mean to suggest that there weren't tons of smaller problems. I was just pointing out how lame it is to do a podcast about Mass Effect, directly acknowledge the fan reaction, and then not address anything the fans are complaining about, not even the obvious broad-stokes problems other venues have already openly discussed.

It comes across like they're attacking a straw man of the fan complaints, as if to say "Sorry, sponsors! We don't know why the metacritic score is so low!" Even though they made it clear they were trying not to spoil anything for Steve, it comes across this way because they avoid saying anything of substance. The voice of Gaming, ladies and gentlemen.

I have no idea why you're being so hostile towards us, especially when we devoted an entire podcast to the endings, including a variety of fan complaints.

5 to 3 its because the Podcast wasn't bashing Bioware for their ending. People are really angry about the ending, to the extent some are filling FTC complaints against EA/Bioware, so when people hear/see things that aren't 100% supporting them they assume its an attack on their beliefs. Or he's just trolling.

 

[WarpZone]

I have no idea why you're being so hostile towards us, especially when we devoted an entire podcast to the endings, including a variety of fan complaints.

Whoops, I hadn't seen that one yet. I may have gone off a bit half-cocked. Sorry, Susan.

I only listen to the podcasts occasionally, and I guess I was interpreting Podcast 037 as your only word in response to the fan controversy.

Just so I know, are you talking about the two-parter?

 

[Slycne]

You had to know that going into the podcast. Why not just ask Steve to step out of the room? Then you could have actually discussed the game and the issue people have with the ending, instead of this non-content in the middle of the podcast where everyone goes "derp, I dunno, I gueth people juth want more choitheth!"

Because we had already done a full podcast on just the ending - Bonus Mass Effect 3 With Spoilers Part 2 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-podcast/5483-Bonus-Mass-Effect-3-With-Spoilers-Part-2]. So we just would have been repeating what we had already said, but the topic of the ending made for a nice segue into a similar and related one.

 

[Freechoice]

In general, I think reviewers are more willing to look at the product as a whole. That's not to say that someone's opinion that the ending ruined their whole experience is invalid. For example, I flat out stated in our podcast that I though the ending was broken, but I still think Mass Effect 3 is overall an great game. I genuinely believe that a lot of those 55,000 views or 236,000 page views are coming from a similar place of affection for the game and series. If people simply hated from start to finish we wouldn't see this much outcry.

But the largest part of the problem with the reviews is that they didn't take into consideration how awful the endings were in the scope of the series. This is bullshit because the vast majority also praise the dozens of minute little occurrences that happened during the rest of the game as a result of choices made in the previous Mass Effect games. The impartiality and credibility of said reviewers are in question when they praise one, but don't criticize the rest. Doesn't it tell you something is amiss when you see perfect scores glossing over problems that a sizable chunk of the fanbase absolutely detest?

 

[ARCTIC_EAGLE]

In general, I think reviewers are more willing to look at the product as a whole. That's not to say that someone's opinion that the ending ruined their whole experience is invalid. For example, I flat out stated in our podcast that I though the ending was broken, but I still think Mass Effect 3 is overall an great game. I genuinely believe that a lot of those 55,000 views or 236,000 page views are coming from a similar place of affection for the game and series. If people simply hated from start to finish we wouldn't see this much outcry.

But the largest part of the problem with the reviews is that they didn't take into consideration how awful the endings were in the scope of the series. This is bullshit because the vast majority also praise the dozens of minute little occurrences that happened during the rest of the game as a result of choices made in the previous Mass Effect games. The impartiality and credibility of said reviewers are in question when they praise one, but don't criticize the rest. Doesn't it tell you something is amiss when you see perfect scores glossing over problems that a sizable chunk of the fanbase absolutely detest?

Well just because people don't like it doesn't mean its not good. Like Origin, it works great for me but I don't like it that much. I get the impression that reviews typically look at the positive and highlight it more than the negative. I tend to like reviews that only talk about the negative. When I write reviews (for amazon, forums, etc.) I talk about the negative as much as I can, I'd rather people not get a decent game than get a bad game. Also if your expectations are lowered by a low score you won't be as disappointed.

 

[Freechoice]

In general, I think reviewers are more willing to look at the product as a whole. That's not to say that someone's opinion that the ending ruined their whole experience is invalid. For example, I flat out stated in our podcast that I though the ending was broken, but I still think Mass Effect 3 is overall an great game. I genuinely believe that a lot of those 55,000 views or 236,000 page views are coming from a similar place of affection for the game and series. If people simply hated from start to finish we wouldn't see this much outcry.

But the largest part of the problem with the reviews is that they didn't take into consideration how awful the endings were in the scope of the series. This is bullshit because the vast majority also praise the dozens of minute little occurrences that happened during the rest of the game as a result of choices made in the previous Mass Effect games. The impartiality and credibility of said reviewers are in question when they praise one, but don't criticize the rest. Doesn't it tell you something is amiss when you see perfect scores glossing over problems that a sizable chunk of the fanbase absolutely detest?

Well just because people don't like it doesn't mean its not good. Like Origin, it works great for me but I don't like it that much. I get the impression that reviews typically look at the positive and highlight it more than the negative. I tend to like reviews that only talk about the negative. When I write reviews (for amazon, forums, etc.) I talk about the negative as much as I can, I'd rather people not get a decent game than get a bad game. Also if your expectations are lowered by a low score you won't be as disappointed.

But it's this kind of journalistic stupidity that got Obsidian fucked over for a bonus. Roughly 25% of the scores for ME3 are perfect despite the giant, pulsating tumor that is the end. I saw one that called Shepard "captain." Must have been written by a quarian. Can't trust them backstabbing space gypsies. Look at what they did to the geth in ME3.

 

[ARCTIC_EAGLE]

In general, I think reviewers are more willing to look at the product as a whole. That's not to say that someone's opinion that the ending ruined their whole experience is invalid. For example, I flat out stated in our podcast that I though the ending was broken, but I still think Mass Effect 3 is overall an great game. I genuinely believe that a lot of those 55,000 views or 236,000 page views are coming from a similar place of affection for the game and series. If people simply hated from start to finish we wouldn't see this much outcry.

But the largest part of the problem with the reviews is that they didn't take into consideration how awful the endings were in the scope of the series. This is bullshit because the vast majority also praise the dozens of minute little occurrences that happened during the rest of the game as a result of choices made in the previous Mass Effect games. The impartiality and credibility of said reviewers are in question when they praise one, but don't criticize the rest. Doesn't it tell you something is amiss when you see perfect scores glossing over problems that a sizable chunk of the fanbase absolutely detest?

Well just because people don't like it doesn't mean its not good. Like Origin, it works great for me but I don't like it that much. I get the impression that reviews typically look at the positive and highlight it more than the negative. I tend to like reviews that only talk about the negative. When I write reviews (for amazon, forums, etc.) I talk about the negative as much as I can, I'd rather people not get a decent game than get a bad game. Also if your expectations are lowered by a low score you won't be as disappointed.

But it's this kind of journalistic stupidity that got Obsidian fucked over for a bonus. Roughly 25% of the scores for ME3 are perfect despite the giant, pulsating tumor that is the end. I saw one that called Shepard "captain." Must have been written by a quarian. Can't trust them backstabbing space gypsies. Look at what they did to the geth in ME3.

You've lost me. But the quality of the ending is an opinion not a cut and dry. So there should be mention of it in reviews "while the story is amazing and engaging the final 10 minutes let it down." They shouldn't take off points for it though.

 

[WarpZone]

You had to know that going into the podcast. Why not just ask Steve to step out of the room? Then you could have actually discussed the game and the issue people have with the ending, instead of this non-content in the middle of the podcast where everyone goes "derp, I dunno, I gueth people juth want more choitheth!"

Because we had already done a full podcast on just the ending - Bonus Mass Effect 3 With Spoilers Part 2 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-podcast/5483-Bonus-Mass-Effect-3-With-Spoilers-Part-2]. So we just would have been repeating what we had already said, but the topic of the ending made for a nice segue into a similar and related one.

Yeah, Susan already called me on it. I'm listening to it now. I'm at 32:57 at the moment and it's an excellent listen so far.

Sorry for going off half-cocked.