Ethics (General Discussion)

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Unesh52

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So, we're stating Ethics in my intro to philosophy course tomorrow, and I thought it might be fun to talk a little about the subject before class. My professor wants us to think about it anyway. I wonder what informs the Escapist's moral codes.

I have what I think is best termed a relativistic view of morality. It's on every individual to decide what is right, and this will be determined by their personal goals, aspirations, and intuitions. Every moral system is equally as valid as any other.

I arrive at this conclusion by process of elimination -- what objective standard can be referenced when trying to establish an absolute moral code? It can't be our feelings, because they contradict each other and they change all the time. They certainly aren't absolute. It can't be tradition or law -- that would be the naturalistic fallacy. The way things are says nothing about the way things should be. And (though I'm sure someone will disagree on this) it can't come from God -- either physical or otherwise. If it's physical I'm almost positive it's non-existent and therefore irrelevant, my hesitation coming only from the strictest adherence to empirical uncertainty (I'll take you up on your particular God's ethics if you think you have a demonstrably existent one). If it's non-physical, it can't be empirically verified, and once you start allowing dubious alternative methods of investigation, any and every God concept becomes equally as valid as any other, and therefore each moral code supposed to have been invented by each God becomes equally valid. We still arrive at irresolvable contradictions.

The obvious objection to the relativistic claim is that it implies we are supposed to live and let live while young girls are being circumcised in barbaric cultural rites and people terrorize others because of their skin color or sexual orientation. I think that that misses the whole point. Part of my understanding of ethics is that we're allowed to decide that certain actions of others are wrong, and thus are justified to try and stop them. This starts to sound like an advocation of anarchy at this point, but I don't believe that would be best. If everyone began acting on their own, deciding for themselves what was right and wrong, not only would the world dissolve into chaos, but few, if any, people would actually be able to satisfy their moral code (i.e., the elimination of evil and the attainment of good). Luckily, there's a loop hole. It seems to me that almost everyone shares quite a lot of basic, fundamental ethical assertions -- things like, "it's good for me to be happy" and "it's bad for those I love to be hurt," etc. Naturally people want to have the most good things and the fewest bad things possible. It's possible (indeed, we've done it for ages) to construct a society out of rules that facilitates that basic desire. While you give up the right to do whatever you want, by doing so you enable yourself to satisfy more of the rest of your moral code than you otherwise would. It's simply social contract, John Locke and all that. Thus, our modern apparatuses of justice and law are perfectly consistent with this relativistic view, even if the underlying concepts need to be tweaked a little.

As an addendum, it occurs to me that it's the consistency of beliefs that allows the whole social contract thing to work, and inconsistency that creates perceived injustice. A perfectly moral society, therefore, could only be achieved if every member held the exact same beliefs (and the simpler the beliefs, the easier the associated perfect social structure would be to invent). Thus, unilateral brainwashing and reduction to the lowest common denominator would allow for the best possible society at the lowest cost! Sounds positively Orwellian, don't it? But would you be unhappy?

tldr:

I believe moral relativism is true, because there's no apparent objective source for morals. I think that life as we know it (er, here in the first world anyway) is still pretty much consistent compatible with this view.

EDIT: I think that's a better way to put it.
 

PunkyMcGee

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to put it simply, I hold the belief to hold my ground on an issue even if it's a lost cause to who I'm standing up to, like my boss for example. on that note I'm surprised I haven't been fired.

I believe that taking advantage of others to leave a bad taste in my mouth even in a video game. again this is just a simple assessment of my moral beliefs.
 

Dethenger

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I don't think too hard on it really. For me it's a spur of the moment decision, is this right or wrong, etc. Anyone that uptight and systematic about morality can be a right Kant.

...I'm so sorry for that.

I haven't the time to right an essay on my own ethical philosophy, but in as few words as I can: I believe in subjective morality, choosing morals with reason and practicality, judging each and every situation in itself rather than applying a blanket morality over everything, and not forcing one's morals down another's throat unless it's a serious fucking problem.
 

hittite

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Hmm. Quite an interesting and well thought out viewpoint. I myself am not a student of philosophy, so I lack the tools to adequately argue for or against your views. I take slight offense at your assertion that religion can't be used as a basis for morality, but you defend your point well, and I don't want this to turn into another flame war, so I'll leave it at that.

To answer your last question, though. No. If it was done correctly, I would have no reason to feel unhappy. I may not be particularly happy, but I wouldn't know the difference. The best example I can think of off the top of my head, is The Giver by Lois Lowry. It's a really good book, and I don't want to spoil too much of it. In the book, society is much as you describe it (and oh man is it ever a distopia from my point of view) yet there's no crime, no disease, and no one is unhappy. Well, except for the main character. But he's a special case.
 

hittite

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PunkyMcGee said:
to put it simply, I hold the belief to hold my ground on an issue even if it's a lost cause to who I'm standing up to, like my boss for example. on that note I'm surprised I haven't been fired.

I believe that taking advantage of others to leave a bad taste in my mouth even in a video game. again this is just a simple assessment of my moral beliefs.
Ah, you're like me then. In any game with a moral choice system, I'll always choose the good choices. TvTropes refers to it as Chronic Hero Syndrome [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicHeroSyndrome]. I call it my White Knight Complex.
 

PunkyMcGee

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hittite said:
PunkyMcGee said:
to put it simply, I hold the belief to hold my ground on an issue even if it's a lost cause to who I'm standing up to, like my boss for example. on that note I'm surprised I haven't been fired.

I believe that taking advantage of others to leave a bad taste in my mouth even in a video game. again this is just a simple assessment of my moral beliefs.
Ah, you're like me then. In any game with a moral choice system, I'll always choose the good choices. TvTropes refers to it as Chronic Hero Syndrome [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicHeroSyndrome]. I call it my White Knight Complex.
yup, always run with the Chaotic Good option and have a hard time on evil even in a second play through.
 

fine1

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Ethics takes what is law and turns it into a practical methodology by interpreting those laws to fit the circumstances. Basically, ethics
are a way to keep people away from the appearance of evil, if I may use a biblical
phrase.
 

spartan231490

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I believe in Utilitarian morality. The best action is the one that accomplishes the most good. I generally define good along similar lines as John Stuart Mill, if you actually care that much. Not exactly the same, but pretty close.
 

Unesh52

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hittite said:
To answer your last question, though. No. If it was done correctly, I would have no reason to feel unhappy. I may not be particularly happy, but I wouldn't know the difference. The best example I can think of off the top of my head, is The Giver by Lois Lowry. It's a really good book, and I don't want to spoil too much of it. In the book, society is much as you describe it (and oh man is it ever a distopia from my point of view) yet there's no crime, no disease, and no one is unhappy. Well, except for the main character. But he's a special case.
I was supposed to read that book in High School, but I never did. I feel like I should make an effort to read significant works like that, but... man do I hate reading. I'm so slow at it, and easily distracted... anyway.

The idea of the "perfectly moral society" is that everyone can have exactly what they want. I don't understand how you could be anything less than perfectly content -- by definition. Am I missing something? What else could you want?

hittite said:
I take slight offense at your assertion that religion can't be used as a basis for morality, but you defend your point well, and I don't want this to turn into another flame war, so I'll leave it at that.
Now, that's not quite what I'm saying, though it's very close, and hard to differentiate I know. Religion is a very wide subject that can encompass a variety of beliefs and philosophies (some religions don't even have gods). I merely reject the notion that moral absolutism can be derived from the supposed mandates of an immaterial God. (I also mentioned material Gods, but hardly anyone believes in those anyway, and for good reason.) Any assertion of such a being's existence and the legitimacy of its divine doctrine can be contradicted with equal validity by any alternative assertion. Your only recourse is literally "uh-huh!" and "uh-uh!" Also bear in mind that this is only referring to moral absolutism. It's still technically valid in my view to define personal codes by the word of your personal deity, it's just that it's invalid to assert that this is the code everyone else should follow too. In other words, you can't rightfully claim anything your God says about morality is true, but you can still believe it.
 

Jerious1154

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I like your position a lot because it manages to take moral relativism and actually adjust it to create a workable system. A lot of people are pure moral relativists without ever really thinking it through. I remember taking a philosophy class in high school and my teacher told this story about how one year when his students were learning about ethics, he took a poll to see how many were moral relativists, and almost all said that they were. Then the next day he gave them a quiz on the reading, graded them, failed half the class at random. When they complained about it he said, "You're moral relativists. My system of morals says that being fair isn't important. On what basis can you tell me I'm wrong?"
 

octafish

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Ethics, they make model aeroplanes don't they?

Cookies if you get the reference.

Myself I follow the "Golden Rule".
 

Unesh52

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spartan231490 said:
I believe in Utilitarian morality. The best action is the one that accomplishes the most good. I generally define good along similar lines as John Stuart Mill, if you actually care that much. Not exactly the same, but pretty close.
I think that you can define any ethical system in utilitarian terms. Every moral system has to have a way to resolve apparent conflicts (like the African baby problem, or whatever it was, that someone posted the other day); no matter what principle or action wins in the end it can just be said to be more good than the others.

One thing that I forgot to mention in the OP is that personal moral codes are (demonstrably) fickle. You can convince people to hold different ethical beliefs. So in the case of moral conflicts, though neither side is "right," you can still resolve them if one side can convince the other that they're wrong.

denseWorm said:
If you do the right thing every time, you probably won't come into conflict with anyone's ethics.
...Is that supposed to be ironic?
 

Unesh52

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Jerious1154 said:
That guy sounds like just my kind of ass hole XD

octafish said:
Myself I follow the "Golden Rule".
That's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," right? Why?

[sub][sub]And I don't get any cookies...[/sub][/sub]
 

spartan231490

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summerof2010 said:
spartan231490 said:
I believe in Utilitarian morality. The best action is the one that accomplishes the most good. I generally define good along similar lines as John Stuart Mill, if you actually care that much. Not exactly the same, but pretty close.
I think that you can define any ethical system in utilitarian terms. Every moral system has to have a way to resolve apparent conflicts (like the African baby problem, or whatever it was, that someone posted the other day); no matter what principle or action wins in the end it can just be said to be more good than the others.
Meh. Many of the "schools of thought" on morality believe in an absolute good and bad, so if you do any harm it's amoral, even if it was for the greater good. hell if I know why that is the case, since nobody I know thinks like that, but whatever.(I'm going by what I learned in one philosophy course, it's entirely plausible that I am wrong, but we talked about several types of ethics like this in my class.
 

Unesh52

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spartan231490 said:
Meh. Many of the "schools of thought" on morality believe in an absolute good and bad, so if you do any harm it's amoral, even if it was for the greater good. hell if I know why that is the case, since nobody I know thinks like that, but whatever.(I'm going by what I learned in one philosophy course, it's entirely plausible that I am wrong, but we talked about several types of ethics like this in my class.
Well if it's an absolute good to save people's lives and an absolute bad to kill your baby, then you have a conflict. I suppose there could be a system in which the absolute bad is to be avoided, even at the cost of an absolute good, or the other way around, but you couldn't have both (I should think).

I'm glad we've actually started this already. Theory of the mind was getting old.
 

SaikyoKid

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summerof2010 said:
spartan231490 said:
I believe in Utilitarian morality. The best action is the one that accomplishes the most good. I generally define good along similar lines as John Stuart Mill, if you actually care that much. Not exactly the same, but pretty close.
I think that you can define any ethical system in utilitarian terms. Every moral system has to have a way to resolve apparent conflicts (like the African baby problem, or whatever it was, that someone posted the other day); no matter what principle or action wins in the end it can just be said to be more good than the others.

One thing that I forgot to mention in the OP is that personal moral codes are (demonstrably) fickle. You can convince people to hold different ethical beliefs. So in the case of moral conflicts, though neither side is "right," you can still resolve them if one side can convince the other that they're wrong.
Um, just a quick note, that isn't always necessarily the case. If you look at Egoism, the main ethical good there is to do what is best for yourself regardless of what happens to others. My favorite example from class for this one is the murdering of a small child by his uncle for some inheritance money. Provided he can pull off the murder successfully and get away with the money, then following the Egoists viewpoint he was absolutely ethically correct in doing so.

Keep in mind too, there were quite a few specifics in the scenario as we managed to talk about this for roughly 45 mins discussing how it worked out. I just don't want to go attacking people with text walls.
 

Unesh52

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SaikyoKid said:
Um, just a quick note, that isn't always necessarily the case. If you look at Egoism, the main ethical good there is to do what is best for yourself regardless of what happens to others. My favorite example from class for this one is the murdering of a small child by his uncle for some inheritance money. Provided he can pull off the murder successfully and get away with the money, then following the Egoists viewpoint he was absolutely ethically correct in doing so.
But from the egoist's perspective, the only relevant good is that which gets him what he wants. Therefore, killing the child is still "achieving a greater good" than not killing him. I wouldn't call that utilitarian (that would just be confusing), but I don't recall that theory incorporating a precise definition of what "good" actually is -- it's just the position that the actions which facilitate the greatest net good are the best ones to take. Depending on your definition of good, any action can be written as achieving the greatest possible good.

I'm really just playing with concepts and definitions here. In real life, people who identify as utilitarians generally have consistent ideas about what constitutes good that makes the application of the whole "greatest net good" concept relevant. But even they can disagree on the specifics. Is the life of an old person less valuable than that of a child? By how much? I.e., how many young people do you have to save to justify killing an old man?
 

LordFisheh

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I think we should operate on giving people as much freedom as possible to choose what they want, since no ultimate 'right way' can really exist. But to do this people have to be prevented from infringing on each others' freedom, which is where enforcement has to come in. The place where it becomes really complicated is in raising children, and what to teach them, but other than that, I like to think it works rather reasonably.