Ethics of Pokémon.

JoJo

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DalekJaas said:
As a kid it never occurred to me, but as an adult playing X and Y the Pokemon world really seems like a place where its all glossy and shiny and pleasant on the outside and cruel and sinister underneath.

Despite the multitude of examples, the one that got me thinking was catching all the pokemon as I went through an area and never using them. I have deprived a pokemon of its life and freedom to sit in a PC box for all eternity and never be used again simply for the sake of a pokedex entry. It would seem more logical for the pokedex to fill itself out simply for seeing the pokemon.

Also you'd have to think that somewhere there is someone training a miltank, and somewhere else there are miltank in a slaughterhouse so people can eat.
To be fair, the 'ethical' trainer could just release a pokemon they caught for their pokedex as soon as it was either caught or fully evolved. I like to imagine that the pokemon in my boxes are enjoying some sort of cool virtual world to play around in and hang-out with each other.

OT: I think it's worth remembering that a pokemon is free to disobey their trainer if they wish (for example, if one doesn't have enough gym badges for their level), so they clearly choose to fight for their trainer. I tend to think of pokemon as being semi-sapient, somewhere between an animal and human, since they can clearly understand human language to a degree and show emotions, but in the wild they still act largely like animals. I hope they aren't too sapient, otherwise the whole breeding thing starts to become all kinds of squick >.>
 

Lightknight

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While yes, it does appear to be so, there's more of a willing relationship between the two. I haven't really seen any of the Pokemon asking to not be around their "owner" whereas slaves were quite ready to run off for obvious reasons. I'd consider Pokemon to have little more motivation/drive than a dog while still being more intelligent.
 

Racecarlock

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THEY'RE PIXELS!

Can't I just have one, ONE game where I don't have to question the ethics of jack shit and just have fun and play the damn game without having to consider animal abuse laws or something? Just one?
 

Robert Marrs

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If pokemon were real in the world we live in I could see the issues. Beating up on wild animals until you can fit them inside a small ball with a high chance of being deposited onto a pc for the rest of the pokemons miserable life is pretty messed up. However this is a fantasy world. Pokemon are not dogs or cats they are pokemon. Very few characters in the pokemon are anything but loving to the pokemon they own and most of the pokemon seem extremely happy. Its fiction. Real world ethics do not apply.
 

2xDouble

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Realitycrash said:
I am fairly certain that this topic has been covered before, but I actually didn't really reflect upon it until today.
Even if we ignore the fact that capturing animals and having them battle each-other is ethically dubious to say the least, isn't several Pokémon also self-aware and show considerable signs of being Sapient, i.e having human-level intelligence? (I've never played the games, but from watching the cartoons this certainly seem to be implied).

Doesn't that make this akin to, oh-I-don't-know, slavery?
Not necessarily. Relationships between pokemon and trainer are less akin to that between a master and slave than it is to a coach and an athlete. A team's coach may impose rather harsh restrictions, and can utilize rather aggressive recruiting tactics, but the athletes are never considered to be slaves... unless the coach is a horrible person, i.e. "going too far" in training/recruiting, but that's the exception that proves the rule.

Lore establishes that pokemon can die, but never die from battling. Self-preservation (and the overwriting of same) doesn't factor in if there's no real risk of injury.

Wild Pokemon do have the ability to deny capture (break free) and, though rare, can escape completely (flee from battle) if they so choose. It is heavily implied that pokemon wish to meet with trainers so that both can reach higher potential symbiotically. Of course, being a video game, the chances of convincing said pokemon of your strength and to join your team are significantly increased; it wouldn't be very fun if every pokemon you caught basically told you to f off if you didn't have X number of wins under your belt, now would it? (case in point: any football (either type) management simulator.)
 
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Luminous Chroma said:
XY discusses the fact that plenty of Pokemon have abandoned their trainers, unhappy with their treatment or lack of skill.
NICE! That's...Wow, that's actually pretty badass. :p

One of the theories I kinda subscribe to is that Pokemon are living weapons left over from whatever war turned our world into the one in the games.

As such, they live for combat.

Mind you, sticking the ones you don't use into a PC seems kinda cruel. Especially if you somehow die and no one ever knows. Imagine all those poor monsters, trapped as data in a server somewhere...FOREVER. :eek:
 

k7avenger

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While playing the game, have you noticed that none of the pokemon you catch are level 1? That means they have some combat experience. The further you get into the game, the higher level the pokemon you see in the wild. What it all amounts to, is that pokemon really, REALLY like to fight. Whether in the wild, or at the call of a trainer, doesn't really seem to matter. In fact, at least trainers can take their pokemon to a medical facility.

And honestly, I'm not sure our ideas of ethics really works in the world of pokemon. You can tell your pokemon to blow itself up, and it would do so with a smile on its face. Hell, have you ever even seen a pokemon actually DIE from battling? Those things are freaking immortal it appears.
 

Drakmorg

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Pokemon ain't the kinda game I go to when I want to consider ethical dilemmas n'such. So I actively try to avoid thinking about it. I just follow along with this line I read in a Pokemon Let's Play because it's a game and I want to enjoy it.

"Yeah it turns out they love to kick the crap out of each other as much as we love to watch it. It's the damnedest thing but hey, nature provides."
 

actelon

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Actually thinking about it....given how many Pokémon love to kidnap children should we be that bothered by possible cruelty? :p
 

Muspelheim

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Pokéland does look like a rather Spartan society beneath the soft and lovely surface, doesn't it? Subjecting their children to hardship while they're young and teaching them to fend for themselves in the wild. Those fortunate that eventually come home will be hardened survivors with mastery of wild attack animals. The Pokéland forests must be utterly littered with bones and abandoned Pokédexes.

Perhaps the most promising individuals are recruited by the Pokégovernment and trained into deadly elite commandos, sent into the Pokéluddite's territory to carry out sabotage and terrorist attacks?

Or maybe it's even more sinister than that. Could it be possible that the Pokémon world is a recruiting world and proving ground for a Space Marine chapter..? Monitored by the Star Warriors, who pick out the best of the surviving children at the end of their frantic ritualistic struggle to survive.

Although it'd probably be a rather shouty chapter with very poor dress and haircode the other chapters don't really want to acknowledge...

(Bloody hell, that went down the rabbit hole. I beg your pardon).
 

zerragonoss

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Muspelheim said:
Pokéland does look like a rather Spartan society beneath the soft and lovely surface, doesn't it? Subjecting their children to hardship while they're young and teaching them to fend for themselves in the wild. Those fortunate that eventually come home will be hardened survivors with mastery of wild attack animals. The Pokéland forests must be utterly littered with bones and abandoned Pokédexes.

Perhaps the most promising individuals are recruited by the Pokégovernment and trained into deadly elite commandos, sent into the Pokéluddite's territory to carry out sabotage and terrorist attacks?

Or maybe it's even more sinister than that. Could it be possible that the Pokémon world is a recruiting world and proving ground for a Space Marine chapter..? Monitored by the Star Warriors, who pick out the best of the surviving children at the end of their frantic ritualistic struggle to survive.

Although it'd probably be a rather shouty chapter with very poor dress and haircode the other chapters don't really want to acknowledge...

(Bloody hell, that went down the rabbit hole. I beg your pardon).
I would have to agree in a way, expect for the society part. It a savage brutal world of people sent to become warriors in childhood there is no longer any society or government just the facade of one. People mug each on the streets, and the only thing they respect is power. I would not worry about the ethics of pokemon as far as animal abuse, for there is only one ethic in this world of monsters, power. Mostly joking but I can't remember running into anything that seems resembles a government, or holds the population together other than the pokemon and their battles.
 

Mid Boss

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Pokemon really only works if you don't think about it. That can be said for a lot of video games but it's exceptionally true for pokemon.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love me some pokemon. But, when you stop to think about the whole capture, tame, sometimes eat, and force to fight thing... it's all really disturbing.
 

Easton Dark

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You see, because the pokemon are sapient, that makes it more acceptable, not less.

All pokemon but the tiniest of babies have the abilities and powers to say "Fuck You" to humanity and their trainers and they can refuse to go in the Pokeball.

I don't get why people assume the pokemon are forced to battle. Game mechanics and the animes prove they are not. Even Team Rocket's pokemon like their trainers.

 

Muspelheim

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zerragonoss said:
I would have to agree in a way, expect for the society part. It a savage brutal world of people sent to become warriors in childhood there is no longer any society or government just the facade of one. People mug each on the streets, and the only thing they respect is power. I would not worry about the ethics of pokemon as far as animal abuse, for there is only one ethic in this world of monsters, power. Mostly joking but I can't remember running into anything that seems resembles a government, or holds the population together other than the pokemon and their battles.
That's true. It does make me wonder, though... Is the situation orchestrated by an outside force, to breed able warriors or to keep the Pokémites in check? Or has it happened by itself? Perhaps Pokéland has gone through an apocalypse in the past?
Perhaps Pokéland has gone through the same collapse of society that Somalia went through, and Pokémon is the only vestige of power they have left? The Team X groups are, perhaps, the few remains of Pre-War government, trying to restore order, the only way they know how, after so many years.
 

jamail77

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It has already been established both by the lore of the fiction and logical real arguments that the reasoning behind this question is just for giggles and "there's nothing better to do"/"WOAH! Duuuuude! I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY!" realization discussions. It's fun to discuss, but let's not take it too far alright: It's not that bad, maybe not good, but it's not "OH MY GOD, THIS IS THE MOST TERRIBLE THING IN FICTION" levels. In reality, Pokémon ethics aren't that bad.

First off, how are Pokémon surviving in the wild? Most are probably doing alright but some are shown to have suffered at the hands of nature or other Pokémon that weren't provoked by human society whatsoever. Those that were hurt by humans were hurt by the villains and jerks we were supposed to hate. So, their lives before were just as good at best and as bad as anyone else's at worst.

Second, Pokémon have been let go before in the anime when the trainer felt it was the right thing to do and it is very easy to do this in the games.

Third, while some might argue it's Stockholm Syndrome, Pokémon generally warm up to the idea of being with a trainer and even getting in Pokéballs if they weren't already fine with this to begin with as some are shown to be. A lot of people argue the fight to catch is a test by the Pokémon to see if the trainer is worthy rather than an attempt to stop abuse. Pikachu flat out refuses to ever get into one with Ash. So, while some are probably following through on Stockholm most seem to be content with the idea the same way your pets don't run away usually. They don't have to listen and don't seem to be overly psychologically or physically abused into doing so.

Heck Pokémon even fight on their own to show dominance, compete, or have fun. They even KIND OF had their own skirmish in Lucario and the Mystery of Mew, the last of the movies I saw I believe, alongside humans before Pokéballs existed and with the Pokémon having a clear strength advantage and no reason to listen or obey unless I'm forgetting something(and assuming Sir Aaron's Aura controlling ability wasn't widespread across the two armies). Lucario is Sir Aaron's best friend, they practically are brothers with Lucario being the worshiping, in a kind of sad way, little brother. What we're talking about here is even a big theme in that movie, Lucario thought Sir Aaron betrayed him when he locked him away in a staff. He constantly berates Ash on his belief that Pokémon and humans can ever be friends. We find out Aaron did this because he wanted to protect Lucario from possibly dying in the battle or stopping him from dying, which would be the inevitable result of him using his aura to make the battle cease (it was a cliche plot device about using this tree of beginning and working with Mew to make the armies understand their differences or something).

The only thing I agree with is how obsessed everyone is with Pokémon and little else. Seriously, what is wrong with them? Then again there do seem to be a lot more Pokémon in their world than animals in ours. You see them every step of the way for obvious reasons. Maybe we'd have as much interest too if animals were that prevalent everywhere and acted more similarly to Pokémon. It'd help if our suburbs and city were less urban and more natural with urban conveniences like it seems the way it is in a lot of places in the series too; though they had cities as well obviously there weren't as many nor were they as big as some of ours. I would like to point out that not all 10 year olds go out to catch Pokémon. Weren't some people shown to have remained home by choice or get a career not related to training or, at least, CONSTANTLY using Pokémon?
 

DarkRyter

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The pokemon choose to be caught and choose to battle.

Note the wild encounters. A pokemon chooses to battle the trainer in the hope of
A) Getting Caught
B) Battling.

A real animal would seek to avoid these two things as much as possible. Injuries sustained in battle could be deadly in the wild, yet the pokemon still actively seeks to battle. As shown by roaming pokemon, they have every opportunity to run away, but choose not to. Pokemon love to battle, and they willfully fight to the last sliver of health.

If a pokemon is caught, it wanted to be. As shown in the anime, a caught pokemon can exit a pokeball whenever it wants (see: Pikachu, Wobbuffet). Thus, there's nothing truly binding a pokemon to its trainer.

When controlled by a trainer, the pokemon follows orders out of respect, not subservience. An under experienced trainer without enough badges commands no respect from stronger pokemon, so the pokemon choose not to obey them.

A pokemon chooses, a pet obeys.
 

Eggsnham

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Heronblade said:
Yeah, Pokemon is one of the few things that PETA and I agree on, as much as I hate agreeing with them on anything at all.

I am fairly certain that the kids rating, and associated limitations on the consequences of violence, are the only things keeping the show and game from being among the most graphic and frankly disgusting media ever. Precisely what do people think happens when a lightning bolt hits a turtle anyways?
It's super effective and the turtle faints temporarily.

Duh.
 

Epic_Bubble

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Hmmm anybody think that pokemon jesus has something to do with the mindset of the pokemon world....

I am talking about Arceus the pokemon that created the very world. I don't want to get religious but the ethics of the pokemon world are vastly different to our world because they are not governed but the same issues we have.

Wars are won with pokemon, not guns. The most powerful entities are pokemon not people. Different world different ethics apply.


Capcha : Do unto others (how appropriate)
 

jamail77

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Epic_Bubble said:
Different world different ethics apply.
Capcha : Do unto others (how appropriate)
I don't think cultural relativism works here. The similarities in their sense of ethics and their technology to ours would suggest otherwise especially since they are often shown to be self-aware of these things.

I have a counter-argument to the ethics debate, don't get me wrong, it's just I don't buy cultural relativism here. It doesn't work. I like cultural relativism mostly when it comes to the way things are understood rather than the way things are acted upon or morals. Perhaps, it's just some instinctive uncomfortableness or perhaps it's because a fair bit of research has shown cultural relativism isn't anywhere near as applicable across the board as people make it out to be rather than because I think it's a good argument. I don't know.

I'll just echo what was already been said
DarkRyter said:
A pokemon chooses, a pet obeys.