EU Ban of Videogame Tax Breaks Imminent

[Blind Sight]

MEANWHILE, IN CANADA:


...though some of those guys are probably unemployed...

If they fail to get their tax break I assume Montreal's going to get a lot more business from French video game developers.

 

[Lt. Rocky]

Canada's no powerhouse, but it's in stable enough condition that the Canadian video game industry has a good deal of potential, so long as Harper tones down on being a monkey. My city alone is home to about 10+ game studios, it's just that everyone only knows about Bioware, which it isn't what it used to be, from what I'm told.

I say come on over. We're the population of New York stretched over the second largest nation....we got plenty of room.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Well hey, that works for us.

I just hope that fat sack of shit we have for a MAJORITY Prime Minister doesn't screw it up.

Yeah, no kidding. For some reason Harper always makes me think of the Joker from Batman.

How does Harper remind you of the Joker? It's hard to think of a less jovial politician.

It's his smile. I don't know why, but whenever that man smiles, he always makes me think of the Joker.

 

[Vhite]

I won't miss Ubisoft, we don't need dirty thiefs around here. HA! See? We can do that too because you steal our money with shitty DRM that makes games we PAYED for unplayable.

 

[Guffe]

Well hey, that works for us.

I just hope that fat sack of shit we have for a MAJORITY Prime Minister doesn't screw it up.

Yeah, no kidding. For some reason Harper always makes me think of the Joker from Batman.

That got to be one cool Prime Minister if he resembles the Joker xD

On Topic:
EU, EU, EU...
maybe there should be a work place in the EU whoms only job is to roam the internet on gaming / movie / other internetnerd sites and tell the big guys up there what the people in the real world like.

 

[RelexCryo]

Did I miss something? I thought the EU was a community, not a federal government that could force it's members to place high taxes on their companies.

 

[Gerishnakov]

I thought the EU was a community, not a federal government that could force sic[it's] members to place high taxes on their companies.

The EU is a community, but it's an economic community. This involves various agreements between EU member states to essentially wipe out competition within the EU. This case is an exception, because France currently has an advantage over all the other EU countries. The EU has up to this point allowed France to keep its video game dev tax break in order to prevent devs from leaving the EU.

The only sustainable long term way to prevent devs from leaving the EU would be for all member states to have these tax breaks, but as you hint at, the EU can't force its member states to do this, not without new EU legislation anyway.

 

[CoL0sS]

Since I don't know (or care) about politics, finances or all that other stuff big boys/girls like to talk about I'll just be immature.


Oh look, it's Ubisoft bitching, making threats and demanding to be heard, all the while being completely ignored (heeeey, just like people who buy their games). You know what? Fuck off and good riddance, and please take that shitty DRM with you, but leave all the creative talent. We could really use those guys.

 

[Treblaine]

So your issue with tax breaks is they leave those that don't do give tax breaks at a disadvantage?

Well EU banning those tax-breaks won't eliminate that advantage, that just means we will ALL be equally disadvantaged, the opposite of egalitarianism which is supposed to raise everyone up. You still have all of USA and Canada and other countries giving huge tax breaks and I remember recently at a UK developers conference they were actively poaching developers to emigrate to Canada for work on games development.

This shouldn't be personal satisfaction of "good riddance to tax dodging French" as there is the major issue of games not being developed in Europe as much. All our great talent bloody well disappearing, those remaining not making as much money, and taking in even less taxes.

I'm in favour of government getting more tax revenue, but that doesn't always mean higher tax rates. It's the same logic that a grocers can make more money trying to sell potatoes at 1 coin per potato rather than 1000 coin per potato.

Remember if the company leaves the EU or massively downsizes and operates in friendlier countries, then the EU gets less money or no money AT ALL! That hurts the public purse more.

Well, you could be making more strawmen, but in that case you'd have to move your computer to a field.

No, my issue with tax breaks is that they give more money to companies that don't need it. I don't think that France is at an advantage giving tax breaks, as a country anyway - a few companies in France have an advantage, and that benefits nobody but the executives and shareholders of said companies. And I'd take a guess that most of the shareholders are legally located in tax havens anyway.

Our great talent disappearing because we don't have tax breaks? As in, the talent up and moving because of the tax breaks in other countries? As I said before - good riddance to bad rubbish, because the talented people probably have healthy lives and thus also have commitments and families. The companies will move, which will result in unemployed talent, thus giving a stronger edge to companies sticking around - and maybe we'll see new companies and more innovation.

I don't believe the EU stands to lose financially due to banning of tax breaks to people who already do everything possible to avoid paying any money back ever.

And as for games I play - we'd lose on what, Ubisoft? Dear god no, where will I ever get games so horribly mangled by executive decisions I can't play them?

Overall, I view abolishing of videogame tax breaks as a net positive to the EU financially and creatively.

EDIT: Oh wait, Quantic Dream too. I forgot about them about as soon as I stopped seeing the name, as I always do. Heavy Rain developer lost, huh? Yeah. Not gonna care.

"Well, you could be making more strawmen, but in that case you'd have to move your computer to a field."

I'm sorry, you can't just say that without describing how this is a straw man argument. I'm fed up of people just dropping in the "Straw man" label inappropriately depending on how it is a rather complex concept. I have not made up a fake position only to destroy it, I have confronted the direct issue of tax breaks being a good thing to go by outlining the negative consequences.

You ever wonder why Rolling Stones, The Who and Ozzy Osborne and all those old rockers are now living in California? They all up and left in the 70's when Government thought it was a good idea to charge +90% income tax. How many American actors have emigrated to UK compared to British actors leaving? Why does Sting live in New York rather than London? Are they all rubbish to be rid of? I think it IS a fact that talented people DO leave to escape onerous taxation and other financial hardship.

I'd personally miss Ubisoft's European input, I am a huge fan of their trackmania series. Remember if media isn't made in Europe then attitudes of Europe won't get into the media as much.

"The companies will move, which will result in unemployed talent, thus giving a stronger edge to companies sticking around"

That doesn't quite follow, as the companies left behind will have more overseas competition and be weighed down by higher taxation... at that time hiring more people will not help at all. The companies that stay behind will likely have to downsize and you know what will leave first BEFORE the companies: the actual talent. I think this is Ubisoft being pre-emptive against what is a very predicable result.

My dad was in UK in the early 1980's and couldn't find work, he emigrated overseas for work. I come from a family who emigrate around the globe for work, I find it somewhat insulting when you say:

"good riddance to bad rubbish (emigrees) because the talented people probably have healthy lives and thus also have commitments and families"

What are you saying about MY FAMILY who emigrated to find work??!? I think you are just ignorant on this matter. My parents had a commitment to get jobs to provide for us, not to hang out with their mates in the UK, our whole family left for greener pastures. It is precisely family commitment that people emigrate.

 

[Treblaine]

Are the EU utter idiots to think they can remove tax-breaks to prevent competitive poaching when they fail to realise that just leaves ALL of the EU at huge disadvantage to the rest of the world. This is what the EU was created for, to stand up to the United States but this is FAILING in that capacity!

Oh, that's alright. The EU isn't failing to the US. It's failing to Canada.

Excuse me while I go giggle in a corner.

Spoiler

I would disagree. America is not exactly the shining beacon of happiness for the gaming industry that people think (excluding companies, I guess). Yes, we do have tax breaks for them (even though they are old tax breaks for older industries), just as for any rich anything. But we also have (and it shames me to say this) an old man government, that has repeatedly tried censorship and bans for games, while at the same time ignoring basic workplace violations (unpaid overtime, workplace stress, occasional cases of pay below state minimum wage, etc.) with the general "What are they complaining about? All they're paid to do is play games."

Hell, I think the big reason companies still operate in the US is that people will still work in those conditions.
Of course, you might just see this as a load of baseless whining.

What I say for US in this case applies for Canada as well. I think this shows it's not a US issue but a Continental issue.

Here is the thing. The censorship/bans that a American political minority TRIES and are solidly cut down by the US Constitution... UK and Europe ACTUALLY DOES enforce such censorship!

Just this week we learn Twisted Metal will be censored in Europe but not in the US and Canada.

I've heard enough bad business practices in UK such as at codemasters in the production of Bodycount. I'd like to see evidence it is actually worse in the US.

 

[Treblaine]

Ubisoft already has put down a LOT of roots in Montreal (you may have seen the name Ubisoft Montreal more often of recent) and I wonder if it was precisely because of this decision.

See, I'm not even sure it's because of this decision because Ubisoft Montreal has been making some great games for a long time now. Name a popular Ubisoft franchise and they probably made it: Prince of Persia, Splinter Cell, and Assassin's Creed all started with them. Granted they've had some stinkers, but it's to be expected given their size and the fact that they were handling some licensed properties. I mean christ, according to wikipedia the studio has 1700 employees.

Frankly, I'm not even sure what other Ubisoft divisions do aside from help out Montreal or take over their franchises when they move onto new things.

Nadeo, a subsidiary of Ubisoft located in Paris. Made the trackmania series, now releasing Trackmania 2. Interestingly they have released a "pre-launch" where they sell the game before finished, like minecraft, this seems to be to avoid this 2012 tax-a-geddon

 

[Purplecoyote]

Just sayin', we're already up to our ears in waffles and chocolate, I don't think that would work. Beer on the other hand.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

"The abandonment of this flagship measure, which brings hope to a large number of European studios and which has demonstrated its effectiveness in France, would be an historic mistake," said Guillaume de Fondaumiere, CEO of Quantic Dream, makers of Heavy Rain.

"We would like to point out that this French measure has not caused any distortion in competition within the EU," he continued before pointing out that if the tax breaks ceased, France could see its videogame developer workforce shrink considerably.

"In the end, I fully believe that we have to do something about these issues or our industry is going to fall apart," he continues. "People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60. They also don't seem to realize how much they are hurting us when they buy a used game and how pirating a copy is just plain stealing. Maybe something as simple as educating them could help solve the problem..."

Or in other words devs will cry and wail about the end of the industry when their profits are threatened, but when consumers express concern of our pockets being pinched we're simply being uneducated whiners.

Seriously this industry needs to grow the f*ck up. It is early in the morning and I am not a morning person.

I fully understand that games these days take a lot of investment to produce, with many devs claiming that games now cost as much as Hollywood blockbusters to create. Well, maybe they do. But I find this argument falls down a little bit when I go into my local store and see brand new Hollywood blockbusters on the shelves for £10 next to games priced at £40. Despite them costing the same to make.

I refuse to give any sympathy to devs whilst they refuse to give respect to their consumer base.

[small]*phew* Glad I got that out of my system...[/small]

 

[Akimoto]

Come to my country instead. We have tax breaks for foreign companies and a pool of young talents waiting to work for multinational companies.

Plus we have a wide variety of food. And decent beer.

 

[kasperbbs]

Pay your damned taxes Ubisoft, like everyone else.

 

[LordFisheh]

God forbid that businesses have to actually compete in a capitalist economy rather than just cry to the EU.

 

[Gerishnakov]

A lot posters seem to be taking issue with devs threatening to leave France because of this. Frankly, that's not the issue. Companies are free to pick and choose where they work, and these decisions will be based on where it is most profitable to do so. Of course, tax rates play a significant part in this. Sorry folks, but that's just how capitalism works.

What I think should happen is an EU wide tax break for game devs. After all, the EU is supposed to be about creating a level playing field within the economic community of Europe, and it would allow the continent as a whole to compete with the likes of Canada.