Everything You Know about Anime Is Wrong

[boag]

I love having a Good Berserk Discussion, thank you for letting me indulge in it

Oh no, thank you

Farnese snip

My point is that there was something really dark inside her. You could see it in her eyes when see looked upon the bloody whip marks she left on Guts, and when she saw the rebels being tortured by wheel when we're first introduced to Mosgus; A certain lust for physical pain. It hadn't come to full bloom yet, but it was very much there.
Same as the moment when she is briefly possessed, and the demon in question easily exposes her ritualistic self-lashings as an act of pleasure instead of religious penance. This is why she clutched so firmly to her religion. Because she knows what she feels is wrong, but since no one can surpress their sexual desire she hides behind a mask of piety.

And then all of a sudden that darkness is gone. This just doesn't make sense to me. I don't mind that she follows Guts in the hope to learn the secret to oppose the Darkness - something she's feared and induldged in her entire life. It's just that it seems she doesn't even need to learn the secret anymore, because her twisted desire for pain seems to have vanished into thin air. And it was this conficting side of her that was fun to behold. Now she's just a boring side character.

On to Guts not having his fire anymore.

You have to understand, the fire rage and mad dog attitude have now become his enemy, he is constantly trying to keep his rage in check, because of what happened when he got taken over and hurt Caska. This has weighed heavily on him, because he was able to open up to Caska about his own trauma, and she accepted him, he went on a revenge rampage because of Caska, its central to the character. The constant battle of wills between him and the Demon Dog has worn him out, there is also the encounter with Slaan, that basically crush his spirit, to the point where the Skull plot dev... Knight had to rescue him a second time. which leads me into the 3rd point.

The armor, yes it is a plot device, yet its a plot device that doesnt give him the instant win ability that plagues Shonen. This thing is a cursed item for a reason, no eating him alive from the inside isnt the main reason, its because it has finally given the Demon Dog a physical Form, it has been shown every time he used it, that he is losing more and more control, even now with Shierke on his side its a losing battle, because the Demon Dog is getting stronger and stronger. The armor has become as much weight as a crutch, he doesnt want to use it, and his core group know he shouldnt use it, that is why he asked Serpico to kill him in case he fully loses it.

Guts hasnt lost his continous struggle for survival, its just that it has changed dramatically, from a physical battle to a spiritual one as well, with fits in the themes of the story, since now the world has been united with 2 more planes of existance, and reality as a whole has been altered.

You should have realized that Berserk was going to be a Fantasy story, from the moment the Count transformed into the Snake Apostle in the first arc, heck when you should have known when shota fairy was introduced.

This actually gets into a 4th dislike I have for current Berserk: The Demon Dog.

I don't see the need for this blatant symbolic representation of Guts' dark side. Berserk has always had plenty of symbolism, but it was always much more subtle. The moment I saw this Demon Dog thing manifest right after Guts defeated that girl apostle it felt very superfluous. Guts' darkness was always perfectly represented by his own facial expressions, it didn't need some symbolic dog thing to tell the audience they'd better not be around him right now.

Plus, I just hate the way it looks as well as the helmet. It makes him look like Big Daddy from the Kick-Ass movie.

Honestly, I've found the most interesting events after the Tower of Conviction to take place in the new Band of the Hawk.

Though I will admit that when I saw Slaan manifest in the physical world I squeed like a little girl. That was such a mindblowing pay-off after the entire build-up with the trolls and ogres and whatnot.

Oh the Farnese character growth was really good, this is why I love her as a character, the thing with lust and self inflicting pain, those were part of her issues with her Father, she wanted to be loved for who she was, and appreciated, but still the Vandimion Family name weighed on her, remember the discussion she had with her mother, how her mother admitted never being a good mother and how she couldn't relate to her, but she still loved her. Its the kind of stuff that fucks people up and something they have to grow out of.

The Tower arc was the event that broke down all her pre-conceptions, it was traumatic as hell, subsequently traveling with Guts gave her strength of will and a new purpose. Just like it has given the rest of the group something to achieve, its pretty common that interaction with people will have an influence on how they think, which I why I believe Farnesse no where even in the same category as Orihime, who is just an excuse for Kubo to draw tits.

I can understand the dislike for the demon dog, but im not certain its an entirely different character, at first I thought it might have been a spirit that possessed guts when he left down his guard while protecting Caska, but the more I see its still his primal urges. I am most certain that the encounter with Slaan gave it more strenght, but right now i wouldnt be surprised if the Demon Dog turned out to be just a split personality or Guts innermost desire for survival made manifest, which would be an ironic twist, since those save survival instincts are what have kept him alive for so long. Its probably why the Dog resents Caska so much, Guts has been having to lock it away in order to protect her.

BTW I loved when Slaan appeared and cant wait for the next chapter, that fight in the ocean with suddenly mermaids everywhere was awesome.

 

[Coldster]

This is quite a remarkable article. I like it, dispite not liking the majority of anime (I only really like Dragonball and Dragonball Z but I used to watch Inyuasha and Naruto but then I found them boring as I got older...). This also reminds me of another epic thread about anime, which I enjoyed as well: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.253074-What-is-so-great-about-Anime

I'm glad that people can enjoy it, even if it will never be in my interests. We all have different tastes, and we should be able to respect that. Gee, MLP sure taught me a lot...

 

[fnlrpa]

Good read that. Though I don't recall seeing anything about Gurren Lagann, and any discussion without that particular anime infuriates me.

I agree with you. and also you forgot about Code Geass. shame on you /kidding

 

[FireAza]

Wise sages. Please recommend me a Baby's First Anime. Something manly. Preferably sci-fi themed.

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is sci-fi that's about manliness ;P The only mark against it is it's directed Hiroyuki Imaishi, who loves to use exaggerated perspective in his animation, which gives it a very "comic book" feel. Which might be a good thing if you're used to way animation is done in the west, but less-so if you want something more "serious" and "realistic". Regardless, it's often a popular series among new people, so give it a go.

Aside from that, Cowboy Bebop as Tiamattt said, is a very good series that new people often like. If you like Blade Runner, I'll throw a recommendation in for the first anime I saw, Bubblegum Crisis: Tokyo 2040. It's very similar to Blade Runner, rouge humanoid robots, an organisation that hunts them down, hell, even a number of the characters have the same name as a few Blade Runner characters.

Television is a medium. Anime is cartoons from Japan. And i still cant stand watching it. The aesthetics propagated in japanise popculture just repells me instantly. SO i dont care about some if it being deep and well written. i do not doubt that. I still can't watch things looking like that.I can't make people go into theatres or enjoying puppet plays. Those can be very well done too and you animu worshippers will never change my taste in looks.

You DID see the part where I showed that anime doesn't always look like what people think it normally does, didn't you? So if an anime doesn't have a "japanise popculture" aesthetic, what's the problem?

Here's two videos I made that show of plenty of anime that doesn't have the usual "japanise popculture" aesthetic:
<youtube=2yJGAQ17abg>
<youtube=sK8D79U6gnk>

This is quite a remarkable article. I like it, dispite not liking the majority of anime (I only really like Dragonball and Dragonball Z but I used to watch Inyuasha and Naruto but then I found them boring as I got older...). This also reminds me of another epic thread about anime, which I enjoyed as well: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.253074-What-is-so-great-about-Anime

I'm glad that people can enjoy it, even if it will never be in my interests. We all have different tastes, and we should be able to respect that. Gee, MLP sure taught me a lot...

Well, there's your problem! You've only watched shounen action series! Now that you're older, you're going to want something different! What are you into? There's pretty much an anime for everyone

 

[Torrasque]

Holy fuck this is a long post =|
*starts reading*

So far I am liking your post. Very good formatting. I'll read this part about "haters" even though I adore anime, mostly because I believe reading an OP's entire post is important, but also because I wanna see your arguments
Ah! I've seen La Maison en Petits Cubes! It is so incredibly good, one of my favorite silent animations. PSG is probably the weirdest and silliest anime I have ever seen. I've never seen an anime be as un-serious as PSG. I still need to get around to watching the rest of K-ON! one of these days... Bakemonogatari kind of looks like... Fuck, what was it called... Ga-Rei-Zero! I haven't seen Bakemonogatari (I don't even know what it is about, lol) but that one pic looks like it would fit right in with Ga-Rei-Zero.
Ugh. I wouldn't consider Naruto a good example of what anime is. I'd consider it a good example of what sheeple like to watch...
Yeah, I know full well that "otaku" in Japan gets more disdain than "fag" or "nerd" gets in North America. My only problem with people who brand themselves as an otaku, is similar to my problem with most people who brand themselves as any kind of fan. Liking something is fine and dandy, but when every second sentence is about how much you like X and how I should like X as well, then it becomes a problem (enough off-topic-ness about otakus >.>)

Interesting read. I'd like to think of myself as "not your typical anime fan" because of my wide taste in anime, but even I generalize at times.
Remember kids! Making generalizations is bad 100% of the time!

Now I am curious if I can list an anime that I have watched that you have not. I won't ask you to list them all because that would take a very long time, lol. If you accept my challenge, just say so

 

[FireAza]

That was a very interesting post, I liked how it was done "on-the-fly" as you were reading it

Bakemonogatari looks like Ga-Rei-Zero? I haven't seen that one, but from the looks of things, it doesn't have the "unusual artwork" thing going like Bakemonogatari does.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Naruto either, but when it comes to what the "average" fan thinks is "anime", out of the top-rated list I mentioned, Naruto would be the first.

Ha ha, I have a wide-ranging taste in anime too! To quote an old meme:

 

[General Twinkletoes]

I have friends on each side of the argument, thinking that making something anime makes in inherintly worse/better. They all treat it as a genre, and it pisses me off .

 

[Dante DiVongola]

Cool story, bro. Idk if it's because I like to do my homework on shit or just because I happened to be THAT big of a nerd, but none of the stuff really comes as a surprise to me at all. Overall, I see anime like I would any other show. It can be beautiful art with great plots and in-depth character development or it could be a shit-heap that got covered in glitter and people on their high horses gave it two thumbs up. It's good that you're sharing the word with people who aren't in-the-know, so I can appreciate and I thank you for that, kind sir or ma'am.

 

[Lim3]

Thanks for the read, it was quite interesting. I used to love anime when I was a teenager, I don't watch it often any more, but it helped get me through high school.

 

[minuialear]

I saw enough anime with my girl to know that I'll never like it.

That's probably because you've been watching the kind of stuff a girl would like Like I said, there's a lot out there, it's a hell of a sweeping statement to say you don't like it ALL.

I think it's hilarious that while arguing that people shouldn't stereotype anime/anime viewers, you go and stereotype girls as liking things that guys probably wouldn't like (and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're probably implying she showed Bassik romantic comedies and pink, feminine stuff, even though you have absolutely no basis for assuming that she showed him anything of the sort, and even though you have absolutely no basis that he wouldn't in fact have liked "stuff a girl would like"). Ironic much?

Not only that, but there are very distinct elements to anime that are pervasive in anime in general, to the point where if you don't like those elements, it's probably not worth wasting the time hunting through thousands of series just to find the handful that one actually likes. If you know nothing about and don't care about Japanese culture and Japanese customs, that knocks out a lot of anime. If you don't like Japan's version of drama (which is certainly different than that which you'd find in most Western media), that knocks out even more anime. If you don't care about Japanese folklore, that knocks out a lot of anime. If you're not into Japanese humor (which, again, varies from American humor as much as American humor varies from British humor as much as British humor varies from Australian humor...), that knocks out a lot of anime. Frankly, you don't need to watch a lot of anime to come across these elements, and it doesn't take that long to determine that you don't like them, in their various embodiments.

 

[FireAza]

I saw enough anime with my girl to know that I'll never like it.

That's probably because you've been watching the kind of stuff a girl would like Like I said, there's a lot out there, it's a hell of a sweeping statement to say you don't like it ALL.

I think it's hilarious that while arguing that people shouldn't stereotype anime/anime viewers, you go and stereotype girls as liking things that guys probably wouldn't like (and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're probably implying she showed Bassik romantic comedies and pink, feminine stuff, even though you have absolutely no basis for assuming that she showed him anything of the sort, and even though you have absolutely no basis that he wouldn't in fact have liked "stuff a girl would like"). Ironic much?

I was going out on a limb there and assuming that, based on female anime fans I've known. Personally, that wouldn't really bother me, I've enjoyed many anime that weren't aimed at my gender, but some guys are a bit "funny" when it comes to watching stuff for girls But hey, maybe she's really into Monster or something great, and the guy just has no taste?

Not only that, but there are very distinct elements to anime that are pervasive in anime in general, to the point where if you don't like those elements, it's probably not worth wasting the time hunting through thousands of series just to find the handful that one actually likes. If you know nothing about and don't care about Japanese culture and Japanese customs, that knocks out a lot of anime. If you don't like Japan's version of drama (which is certainly different than that which you'd find in most Western media), that knocks out even more anime. If you don't care about Japanese folklore, that knocks out a lot of anime. If you're not into Japanese humor (which, again, varies from American humor as much as American humor varies from British humor as much as British humor varies from Australian humor...), that knocks out a lot of anime. Frankly, you don't need to watch a lot of anime to come across these elements, and it doesn't take that long to determine that you don't like them, in their various embodiments.

What about the many anime that DON'T do this? Like, the ones with an "international" (i.e not set in Japan, and/or is void of major Japanese cultural elements) focus, or hell, even ones that mimic another country's style of film-making? Anime such as:

Last Exile - Steampunk European-influenced fantasy setting
Baccano! - American setting, American protagonists.
Cowboy Bebop - American-influenced sci-fi setting.
Black Lagoon - Southeast Asia setting, American-born female protagonist
Gunsmith Cats - Painstakingly researched American setting, American protagonists.
Planetes - Outer space, multinational cast.
Riding Bean - American setting, American protagonist.
Pet Shop of Horrors - American setting, American protagonist.
Ergo Proxy - Dystopian fantasy setting.
Time of Eve - Basically an Issac Asimov novel, despite the Japanese setting.
Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo - Sci-fi France setting, French characters.
Full Metal Alchemist - Fantasy European-styled setting.
Berserk - Fantasy medieval Europe setting.
REDLINE - Sci-fi setting.
Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt - Fantasy America.
Freedom - Set on the moon.
Hetalia: Axis Powers - The cast is literally the nations of the world.
Cat Shit One - Afghanistan setting with American protagonists.
Gosick - Basically Sherlock Holmes but with a fantasy Europe setting.
Dead leaves - Set on the moon, mutant protagonists.
Haibane Renmei - Fantasy setting with European influences.
Gunslinger Girl - Italian setting with Italian protagonists.
The Sound of the Sky - Fantasy Spain setting.
Croisée in a Foreign Labyrinth - French setting with French protagonists and one Japanese protagonist.
Michiko e Hatchin - Fantasy Brazil setting.
Kino's Journey - Fantasy setting with European influences.
Victorian Romance Emma - Victorian London setting, basically a Jane Austin novel.
Ristorante Paradiso - Italian setting, Italian protagonists.
Le Chevalier D'Eon - French setting, French protagonists.
Trigun - Wild West themed sci-fi.
Tiger & Bunny - Fantasy America setting.
Dirty Pair - Space setting.
Yugo The Negotiator - Set in many countries that are not Japan.
FLAG - Fantasy Middle Eastern setting, most of cast American.

The list goes on. Maybe you won't mistake them for non-Japanese animation, but if Japanese cultural elements and style are acting as a barrier for you, and said barrier has been removed, where's the problem?

 

[Jast]

As I read through some of the replies I noticed alot of people saying that they absolutely despise anime and would not even take the time to watch a single series even if alot of people recommended it to them. My first impression of that line of thinking was that it sounded very narrow minded of them and that they were generalizing all anime. But upon reflection I think that is a perfectly reasonable line of thinking. For instance, I absolutely do not like rap music. It offends me and I do not want to wade through all the rap music that I already have good reason from past experiences to not like to find the one or two gems that I would appreciate. My point is that if something from an anime raised a red flag in someone's mind, I find it justified for them to not ever want to continue watching any anime. A good first impression into anything is very important.

On a different note, since I am into anime I've noticed that whenever anyone does actually ask me about that they always ask me if I am into "Naruto". I've never had any interest in "Naruto" or any (what I would consider) mainstream anime (e.g. "Naruto", "Bleach", the "Dragon Ball" series, ect.) I suppose "Naruto" is just one of the most commonly heard of animes in the west, but I always preferred a series that did not have several seasons and just knew when to end.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Doesn't change the fact that most of the character's voices in anime's I've watched have made me want to rip my ears off.
I think it's because in anime a lot of the characters are childlike. And children get on my nerves.

Sorry, staying a hater for now, just a better informed one ^^

 

[allways2edlast]

That was one hell of a read.

 

[FireAza]

But upon reflection I think that is a perfectly reasonable line of thinking. For instance, I absolutely do not like rap music. It offends me and I do not want to wade through all the rap music that I already have good reason from past experiences to not like to find the one or two gems that I would appreciate. My point is that if something from an anime raised a red flag in someone's mind, I find it justified for them to not ever want to continue watching any anime. A good first impression into anything is very important.

The problem there is music is very subjective, it's entirely possible you might love one song, but hate another similar-sounding song. When you're talking about movies or TV shows, you can usually gleam from the plot synopsis or the trailer if you will probably enjoy it or not. You just need to take that first step, that little bit of effort, and go read a plot synopsis or watch a trailer instead of just assuming you won't like it.

Doesn't change the fact that most of the character's voices in anime's I've watched have made me want to rip my ears off.
I think it's because in anime a lot of the characters are childlike. And children get on my nerves.

Sorry, staying a hater for now, just a better informed one ^^

Ah yeah, this comes down to Japan's love of cuteness, and childish voice = cute. Wait, are we talking about English dubs or the original Japanese? Because the Japanese seem to be able to pull off the "cute" voice without it sounding unnatural and annoying (most of the time anyway, actual child characters can often be annoying), but when an American dub actor tries to imitate it... Yeah, the result does makes you want to rip your ears off.

Ah well, at least you're informed anyway

 

[Nick Angelici]

my issues with anime arent the art choices or even the plot sometimes, its the technical parts. Im a animator, and seeing anime makes me cringe, most anime I have seen besides a few like the movie REDLINE, all have scenes that are entirely one movement per person in a still frame shot. theres no dynamic movement, overlapping action, theres no pose to pose, and the exaggeration of emotions isnt even subtle most of the time.

Other times it is the plot, most anime I have seen ends up falling on its face because it had a awesome idea and wasted it. Take "Lineback", had that anime stayed about racing these crazy motorcycle robots, I would of stayed for the show, instead, it became this lack luster plot about a girl who runs away from the evil government because they are evil for no reason, it just happens to have a cool robot bike.

Sometimes, its just the show fail to do what its supposed to. Air gear could of been a wild anime version of Jet set Radio, but again, fel on its face with fanservice and a overall boring cast of characters.

 

[FireAza]

Oh yeah, if there's one valid criticism is that it's (usually) produced on the cheap. Which shouldn't bother you as a viewer if it's not very noticeable, or other elements are making up for it. But if you're a professional, classically-trained animator... Well, I think there's something in the Geneva Convention about it.

But try watching something animated by Kyoto Animation (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Lucky Star, My Ordinary Life etc) sometime, their works are pretty high budget for TV animation.

 

[secretsantaone]

snip

The problem is in the west, animation is generally better used as a medium for humour due to the amount of scenarios and characters you can put in at no additional cost.

Live action film is better used as a medium for more serious topics because, to be honest, people relate more to a human face that a stylised one.

Also you forgot Pixar.

 

[FireAza]

Live action film is better used as a medium for more serious topics because, to be honest, people relate more to a human face that a stylised one.

To quote Don Hertzfeldt (Rejected, Bitter Films, Everything Will Be OK):

You could make a cartoon in crayons about a red square that falls in unrequited love with a blue circle, and there wouldn't be a dry eye in the house if you know how to tell a story.

Also you forgot Pixar.

No, I didn't forget Pixar. In my opinion, they make fancy tech demos, while the stories are not too different from all the many other family films that have been made before. A controversial position perhaps, since Pixar films are beloved by many, but I don't really see them pushing the medium and trying something really different.

Perhaps that's just bitterness at them being almost solely responsible for the popularity of 3D CG animation, which has caused all other American animation studios to abandon 2D in favour of the more popular 3D. Personally, I feel 3D has little artistry compared to 2D, where you have to do everything by hand instead of a computer doing all the art. And I'm saying that as someone who studied 3D animation.

 

[secretsantaone]

Live action film is better used as a medium for more serious topics because, to be honest, people relate more to a human face that a stylised one.

To quote Don Hertzfeldt (Rejected, Bitter Films, Everything Will Be OK):

You could make a cartoon in crayons about a red square that falls in unrequited love with a blue circle, and there wouldn't be a dry eye in the house if you know how to tell a story.

Also you forgot Pixar.

No, I didn't forget Pixar. In my opinion, they make fancy tech demos, while the stories are not too different from all the many other family films that have been made before. A controversial position perhaps, since Pixar films are beloved by many, but I don't really see them pushing the medium and trying something really different.

Perhaps that's just bitterness at them being almost solely responsible for the popularity of 3D CG animation, which has caused all other American animation studios to abandon 2D in favour of the more popular 3D. Personally, I feel 3D has little artistry compared to 2D, where you have to do everything by hand instead of a computer doing all the art. And I'm saying that as someone who studied 3D animation.

Maybe better was the wrong word, easier would probably be a better one, purely because animations handicap themselves by requiring the viewer to be more immersed.

I have to disagree with you on Pixar though, Toy Story had a massive impact and Brave with it's female protagonist looks to be making a step in the right direction.

And how many stories do you know where an old man flies his house to South America with a young boy scout?