Evidence for evolution

[DaJoW]

Here [http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?showtopic=20262] is a thread on a forum of a game I used to play which goes into a fair bit of detail about the evidence for evolution. It's not complete, but it is quite extensive (note: I did not write this).

 

[vivster]

ask him when he thinks this intelligent design took place
then present to him evidence that there were creatures on earth long before the date he named

the theory of intelligent design always crumbles when it's correlated with time

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
I tried explaining to him, about fossils and genetics but he wouldn't listen

So escapees, most convincing evidence for evolution?

PS: I also tried "Every noteworthy scientist believes in evolution" he just said, no.

I agree with your dad personally. I mean, if everything just randomly evolved, why is everything but humanity so perfect? We're supposedly more intelligent too. It all simply fits with Biblical records much more than man-devised theories.

Religion is bad, but the Bible isn't in my opinion. Many people don't seem to understand that you can believe in God in different ways than assembling in a building and believing what every random guy teaches.

That also said, I simply don't trust people enough to believe that they know the truth. I don't believe in the 'potential for humanity' to be superior to everything else, much to disagree with Gene Roddenberry (might have spelled his name wrong lol). People are flawed, egotistical beings that have to explain away everything and prove to themselves that they are the masters of whatever they wish. But time and time again... we learn how wrong we are and that we are NOT superior and that we do NOT have everything correct or explained. Decade after decade passes and what was 'fact' becomes 'fiction'. We have no more 'figured out' anything than our ancestors have, comparing the years 1012 to 2012. We are just as much in the dark as they. But much like they we think we are 'modern' 'civilized' and most sadly 'superior'. The truth is we are not.

Science simply put, is just another religion that many subscribe to because it's the popular thing to do, not to mention the publicized thing taught in schools. There is a better way out there to live ones life than to say "Man is its own god".

Evolution isn't random, it is a very deliberate process that has taken place over millions of years. And science is not a religion. That statement is....to put it politely, you are very wrong.

 

[breaddough]

Hmm... well, is it absolutely vital that he believe the same thing as you? Voltaire said "I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." If you can't even respect each others views, you can avoid the topic entirely. Unless he is directly involved with evolutionary research, I don't see how it could negatively affect him if he continues believing otherwise.

If he wants to understand it, but just can't grasp it right now, he needs to start from the basics. Explain the scientific method, through which the conclusions on evolution have sprung. It is the reason why the theory of evolution has any weight at all, and everyone should appreciate how careful scientists are about accepting something as a theory, and how quick they are to dismiss anything that is proven incorrect.

 

[Macrobstar]

So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"

I'll let everyone else here handle the evidence portion because it's late and I'm tired, but your dad, assuming he was being sincere, has a severe lack of understanding of:

A) what constitutes scientific evidence, and;
B) what the term theory, as used in scientific study means.

Honestly, I'd say it's not even worth arguing with him. Explore the topic to expand your own understanding by all means, but anyone who so much as says there's more evidence for intelligent design than evolution has their head so far up their ass that you're only risking your continued relationship with them by trying to pull it out. And I say this because there has to be a tremendous amount of willful blindness going on to even say that intelligent design has any evidence in it's favour at all, let alone more than evolution.

I don't want to offend him or risk our relationship, but I don't want to just have to agree with him constantly.
He's a smart man, he studies and takes a great interest in astronomy, its just when he was in school evolution wasn't taught, at least not properly, and he still believes it shouldn't be

 

[Macrobstar]

So I got into an argument with my dad today. He says that there is way more evidence for intelligent design than for evolution, and that evolution is "just a theory" and has "minimal evidence"
I tried explaining to him, about fossils and genetics but he wouldn't listen

So escapees, most convincing evidence for evolution?

PS: I also tried "Every noteworthy scientist believes in evolution" he just said, no.

For one, gravity is "just a theory," but it certainly exists. A scientific theory is just a model used to explain phenomena. The existence of gravity, evolution, germs, electrons, etc are not in doubt whatsoever. They exist, period, but gravitational theory, evolutionary theory, germ theory, and electron theory are all our explanations, backed up by MOUNTAINS of scientific evidence, to explain how/why these things exist and work.

Next, ask him to point out JUST ONE piece of "evidence" for "intelligent design," and we will summarily destroy it. There is no evidence for intelligent design.

Anyway, to answer your question, appendixes, tailbones, and other vestigial organs/etc, are all evidence for evolution, since plenty of other animals have them as still-functional organs/etc.

Helpful link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vestigial

Actually, shit, I just searched for "evidence for evolution" expecting the Wiki article but ended up with this next link, which practically mirrors my first paragraph, hah. This is pretty useful, as well as the link afterward:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_for_evolution

*EDIT EDIT* This channel has some of the best evidence, explained in very layman's terms, that I have ever seen, and argued in a very well-formulated way:

http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007

All his evidence just shows his lack of understanding of the burden of proof, which I tried explaining to him
When asked for evidence for ID his usual response is "Well how did we get here" Or some sort of vague impossible to answer question
Also thank you, those links where helpful

 

[renegade7]

Religion is not based in logic, so you can't use logic when arguing with a religious person =/

 

[Jegsimmons]

My argument, its cooler to think we fought dinosaurs at one point.

 

[Jegsimmons]

Religion is not based in logic, so you can't use logic when arguing with a religious person =/

uh, not sure if being funny, or if i should feel insulted.

 

[spartan231490]

Evolution as a theory actually has a lot of flaws with it, and it really doesn't explain what happened very well. It works pretty well in recent history, but darwinian evolution can't explain a lot of early jumps in the evolution of life.

Now that that's out of the way, you're dad is kinda right. There really isn't any super-compelling evidence out there for evolution. It's more of a collection of small bits of evidence and a complete lack of evidence against it that makes it a good theory. And really, intelligent design has a lot of "evidence" going for it because the presupposition of an all-powerful creator means that any evidence you find to the contrary could have been fabricated to "test your faith."

However, if you want to convince your dad in evolution, you're probably going to need to do some actual research into it on your own. Truth is, school doesn't really teach us much about evolution, they basically say that it exists, and what it does, but they don't go into much if any detail about the basis behind the theory. Look into Darwin's actual research notes, it's actually very interesting. Then you'll prolly want to look into genetics. Genetic drift is a decent place to start, but there is a crap-ton of stuff about evolution in genetics. I only took an intro class so I don't even know what you should google, but there is a lot out there.

 

[spartan231490]

Religion is not based in logic, so you can't use logic when arguing with a religious person =/

uh, not sure if being funny, or if i should feel insulted.

Uh, neither? Religion isn't based in logic, so that's correct, no joke hidden there. And about it being insulting...well, I really don't see how that is insulting, you can't bring up logic in a discussion with a religious person about religion seeing as their religion defies logic. They will just ignore it, in fact, thats what always happens.

Religion doesn't defy logic. Fundamentalists often twist religion to defy logic, but that isn't how religion is supposed to be. Religion exists outside the purview of logic. It is about having faith in times when logic doesn't have an answer.

 

[Snoozer]

Since when is there any proof for inteligent design?
The most ironic thing is that nature itself is cruel. All life dies in the most horrible ways on it's everyday struggle to survive. Who would create something like that?

 

[Burst6]

Religion doesn't defy logic. Fundamentalists often twist religion to defy logic, but that isn't how religion is supposed to be. Religion exists outside the purview of logic. It is about having faith in times when logic doesn't have an answer.

Are you saying that Religion is there to tide us over until we find out what's actually happening?

 

[spartan231490]

Religion doesn't defy logic. Fundamentalists often twist religion to defy logic, but that isn't how religion is supposed to be. Religion exists outside the purview of logic. It is about having faith in times when logic doesn't have an answer.

Are you saying that Religion is there to tide us over until we find out what's actually happening?

I'm saying that religion is there to explain things that science doesn't know. And in many cases, never will know, unless you think someone's going to invent a soul-meter. Or a heaven detector. Although, as all of us will eventually find out(when we die) then I guess you could think of it that way.

 

[n00beffect]

Oh, I believe it's too late for your dad, my good friend. I am unaware of his age, but I hardly think it matters, judging by your conversation. He's already in that close-minded, cannot-be-persuaded state of mind, in which many creationists of the earlier generations find themselves. No amount of emperical evidence and logic, can disentangle them from this web of willful ignorance and self-deceit. It is unfortunate, yet I would advise you to not bother, and just live and let be.

Of course, if that does not satisfy you (as I suppose it wouldn't), you could always ask him to acompany you to your local Natural History Museum. If he were to refuse, then you could always counter him with the 'You've got nothing to lose', or it's Scottish counterpart 'Only a true man can wear a skirt!(kilt)' argument, which is basically telling him, that if he truly believes in what he believes, and that if he is so confident in his faith, then a trip to the museum shouldn't be able to shake it up, on the contrary, it would re-affirm it. Then, once you have him in your grasp, you can easily display to him, the many evidence supporting evoultion, which are clearly explained. If you're lucky, they'll have one of their screenings, usually regarding evolution, so you might one to sit through that, as well.

This doesn't guarantee success; however, it is sure to place a small doubt in the back of his mind, next time you try to argue. Good luck, and hope that helps.

 

[Arrogancy]

Isn't intelligent design just evolution with more of a religious background? Or do you mean creationism? Intelligent design is supported pretty much the same way evolution is supported, just with God at the start of everything. As far as science today goes it's as valid as anything else we have. Creationism on the other hand is up against a mountain of evidence. If your dad doesn't accept carbon dating then there's really not much else to do about it.

 

[Burst6]

I'm saying that religion is there to explain things that science doesn't know. And in many cases, never will know, unless you think someone's going to invent a soul-meter. Or a heaven detector. Although, as all of us will eventually find out(when we die) then I guess you could think of it that way.

Don't underestimate people. You'd be surprised how much we can figure out through the scientific method. What might seem impossible to know now may become commonly known in the future. A lot of people think that just because they can't imagine something, it means it's unknowable.

Newton made the same mistake. Back then he knew how to calculate the gravity between two bodies (let's say the earth and the sun), but when he tried to account for the forced of gravity that the other plants give the earth (when the earth is orbiting the sun and it gets close to Mars, Mars' gravity affects it), he couldn't do it. He said God did it.

We do know how to calculate more than two bodies today. If we didn't we couldn't send rovers to mars.

I got it from this video. It's a 40 minute lecture on Intelligent Design by Neil Tyson. If you want to watch, here's the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti3mtDC2fQo&feature=related


The point is that we as a race can know a lot of things. Just because something seems impossible doesn't mean it is.

So yeah, to me you're basically saying That Religeon is here to tide us over until science actually figures it out.


And about the soul-meter and heaven detector. If there's no proof of souls or heaven, there's nothing to go on. It simply doesn't exist, and we have no reason to believe it does. I'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying it's just as possible that we're actually in the matrix.