MinionJoe said:I read that article, and while I'm not a sociologist or a geneticist, I have difficulty believing their claims.
Evolution stops working once a community starts to care for the weak and infirm. Selfish people in modern society are unlikely to be denied food and shelter so they will survive until breeding age. And given the shit relationships I've seen a lot of my friends in, selfish people will still be able to pass on their genetic code.
So, yeah, maybe there will be changes in society that will marginalize the selfish, but I find it highly unlikely that there will be a base, genetic change (ie evolution) in humanity unless some natural or man-made catastrophe puts the species on the brink of extinction.
I do wonder how many grants the researchers received during the course of their investigations.
No, that's not the point at all. Once again, you're assuming a philosophical viewpoint to evolution, i.e. 'I think modern society is unsustainable, therefore evolution correlates this way and agree with me'. Not what evolution is. The only thing these scientists are suggesting is that 'zero sum' deductive reasoning may be a poor evolutionary adaptation. This is not suggesting that some or all selfish behaviour is inherently regressive, just that zero sum perspective may be in specific situations. You're also constructing a narrative based purely on human moralism. The things you present are moral problems, not evolutionary ones. Not to mention the fact that they're divided based on politics rather then actual self-interest. If a 'group who banded together and was marginalized' went and looted a store, then that would also be zero sum selfish action in specific conditions. If 'creating chaos through war or disaster' was an adaptive social change that would benefit the species in certain environments then it would have evolutionary potential. You both need to look up game theory and the actual definition of selfishness in terms of genetics.wombat_of_war said:thats the point. modern society is unsustainable and it doesnt take much for chaos to occur, whether war or disaster. the selfish work well in todays society because its built by them, intially in a disaster they do well claiming supplies, etc but eventually when groups band together they are marginalised
This dude's got the right idea. Situational conditions determine situational responses. Evolution is not some magical path that is all-knowing.Yopaz said:Actually this is wrong. Altruism isn't an evolutionary stable strategy thus it can't be absolute. Let's say we have a population of altruists then we get one selfish renegade. He will reap enormous short term advantage over the altruistic individuals. In the example above with the prisoner's dilemma he would never go to prison while the altruist would always serve 6 months when grouped together.
The selfish individuals themselves won't be evolutionary stable either. The evolutionary stable strategy will usually favour a polymorphism in the case of selfish/non selfish. This has been proven both by observation and simulation on several occasions.
Altruism will be the best strategy on average, but it allows selfish individuals to gain too much advantage and will break down with time. The idea is beautiful, but it suggests that evolution favours long term over short term. Evolution doesn't work that way. Evolution doesn't "think ahead".
Now ignoring the fact that they tried to use evolution as a part of this it's entirely possible that human society might move towards a state like this because we are able to think ahead unlike evolution. We can actually plan ahead and increase our long term success at the cost of short term. The cynic in me doesn't consider this plausible though.
Just came to post the same thing. Since when is this news? I remember Douglas Hofstadter writing about the Robert Axelrod tournaments back in the mid-80's. It's been known for decades that Tit-For-Tat is the most robust strategy (give-or-take some complex variations which pretty much amount to the same thing) and that constant defection is hopeless.Formica Archonis said:Isn't the iterated prisoner's dilemma [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma] kind of old news? Society hasn't killed off its defectors in ten thousand years, despite some fairly thorough attempts to. It's not going to do it now.
Some people think that even if ideally no one would steal or break the rules, in our society some people who break the rules [http://www.amazon.com/Liars-Outliers-Enabling-Society-Thrive/dp/1118143302] can be a good thing, because sometimes the rules are themselves wrong. Selfishness is bad, but not everyone who performs action X is necessarily doing it out of completely selfish motives.
No, it absolutely doesn't in any way.mad825 said:So...This was an experiment to confirm which Richard Dawkins discovered and confirmed? Am I missing something here? The selfish gene theory pretty much covers this topic from top to bottom.
A few millennia have ALREADY passed. Humanity is more than 100 years old, you know.Lauren Admire said:So, long story short. Selfish people win in the short term. But in the long term, you'll have the last laugh. After a few millenia have passed, that is.
Whatever, this argument is old and was masturbation material during the cold war era.Flatfrog said:No, it absolutely doesn't in any way.mad825 said:So...This was an experiment to confirm which Richard Dawkins discovered and confirmed? Am I missing something here? The selfish gene theory pretty much covers this topic from top to bottom.
The selfish gene theory is a theory about genes. It's not a theory about behaviour of organisms - in fact, the whole point of it is that it mostly ignores organisms altogether. Genes 'for' altruism can still themselves be selfish.
Not sure what you mean by that, but in any case, you brought it up.mad825 said:Whatever, this argument is old and was masturbation material during the cold war era.Flatfrog said:No, it absolutely doesn't in any way.mad825 said:So...This was an experiment to confirm which Richard Dawkins discovered and confirmed? Am I missing something here? The selfish gene theory pretty much covers this topic from top to bottom.
The selfish gene theory is a theory about genes. It's not a theory about behaviour of organisms - in fact, the whole point of it is that it mostly ignores organisms altogether. Genes 'for' altruism can still themselves be selfish.
I look at the economy, how selfish short-term profit was prioritized over long-term sustainability, at how those that knew best and were best enabled to exploit the system took hundreds of billions in free, no-strings bailout money from the government they say spoils the poor with a trickle of food stamps, and I wonder where the last laugh is in all that mess.So, long story short. Selfish people win in the short term. But in the long term, you'll have the last laugh.
This reminds me of stories about griefers on MMOs and online games. Essentially, in some communities things would get really ugly, people would exploit something, or harass others until only the griefers remained and the community eventually died out entirely. An example would be Mario Kart DS, wherein an exploit was used by some people to allow them a tremendous advantage granted you could or would be able to use this exploit (called snaking). Eventually other players just stopped playing until only mostly the "snakers" remained, and since there weren't enough of them to keep things really going the community died out. The "meek" (those willing to/only capable of playing fairly) inherited nothing, they were just run off.Frankster said:I interpreted the article as selfish people will only change their ways once they have screwed over the non selfish people so hard that they ain't none left and some of the selfish people have to convert out of sheer neccesity.
So not much of a "revenge" unless you consider the conquerors wearing the clothing of those they defeated to be some kinda moral victory.
No it doesn't, it just stops selecting against the weak and infirm so much.MinionJoe said:Evolution stops working once a community starts to care for the weak and infirm.
I don't think there's any reason to believe that this is the case.kael013 said:selfishness is a social construct