Evolve Community Mgr Fired After Tweet on Donald Sterling - Update

Suhi89

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People need to stop discussing freedom of speech in terms of the First Amendment, except when purely talking about the American legal system. Over 6 and a half billion people live in parts of the world (that would be the vast majority of it) that aren't America and so the First Amendment is completely irrelevant to them.

Any laws protecting free speech start from the basis that free speech needs to be protected. The idea that protected free speech should be protected comes first, then the law follows. So now we ask the question, what limits should be placed on speech? I personally believe that FoS is an important right that we should all have. That includes potentially offensive speech. There are parts of the world where my opinions, as an atheist, would be grossly offensive. Perhaps shops would refuse to serve me. Perhaps I'd be banned from sports fixtures just for expressing my opinion. Perhaps I'd lose my job and wouldn't be able to find another. I might not be illegal to hold the opinions I do, but if I can't take part in society because of it, it might as well be.

Many people seem to hold a double standard. Because people always think that they're right, they think that it's self evident that their views should be protected, because they're correct views, such as "There's nothing wrong with homosexuality" or "There is no fundamental difference between races" (both things I firmly believe). However, there are communities where these views may be offensive and I believe I should have a right not to lose my job, or be denied access to sports events for holding those opinions. I feel the same about people with what I consider offensive opinions.

However, discrimination on the basis of race is entirely another matter and should be illegal and shouldn't be protected. The reason Sterling isn't a victim of any sort is because he was actually discriminatory, as well as racist. This is where I think there's a difference between this story and the Mozilla one. I also don't think Olin should have lost his job. He expressed an opinion. I disagree with said opinion although I don't happen to find it offensive but I can see why people do. Free speech isn't free if you can lose your job over it. OK, it's not the government curtailing your speech but it is your employer and, as mentioned above, I think the right to free expression should go beyond just what government allows.

Note: This isn't how things are, it's how I believe things should be. I recognise that there are perfectly valid arguments for restricting some speech, for employers firing people whom they believe have damage a companies reputation etc. I just think, after thinking long and hard about the issues, that the protection of speech is important, that people shouldn't lose their jobs for expressed beliefs or political opinions. I also acknowledge that there are, and should be, exceptions to someone's right to FoS, and there are debates to be had about what these are, but we should err on the side of people having the right rather than restricting it.
 

Riot3000

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This is not a first amendment issue because this was the NBA's decision which is the the private sector that so many people jump to defense of. The same private sector that can fire you for seeing a picture of you with beer in your hands not drunk just a beer in your hands on facebook and those same people will say just deal with it but come to the defense of this bigot of the cognitive dissonance could feed the world.

Plus I am not calling this guy a victim you bring about this info of your stupid views of blacks and hispanics to your black and hispanic mixed mistress and not expect that to bite you in the ass.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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the hidden eagle said:
Once again stop twisting my words.I have not once in this entire thread ever advocated that racists be killed.Also being tolerate of racists IS a subtle nod that gives them the go ahead to continue being hateful,it's like if you see a child misbehaving and do nothing about it.It gives them the message that it's okay to act that way.
oh, yes you did. multiple times in fact. you advocated beating thme up, you said your ok with people killing them, plenty of hate from you was shown. i am not twisting your words. you may think that only if you dont understand what your saying yourself.
no, its not a subtle nod. being tolerant is just that - being tolerant. and yes, they have the right to be racists in private, no matter how much you dont like that. but then your just going to make up more false equivalence and expect people to fall for them.

Edl01 said:
Wait...isn't the community Manager's job to ensure that backlash like this doesn't happen?
Even if the guy wasn't agreeing and defending someone for being racist I'd still say that he deserves to lose his job for the fact he is doing the opposite of managing the communities, he's encouraging backlash against the game!
how is he encouraging backlash agians the game by saying that legal rights to privacy are actually legal rights?

the hidden eagle said:
If there's one type of person I absolutely cannot stand it's those who cry about political correctness.Is it PC to not be a dick?Is it PC to expect people to treat others like how they would want to be treated?

Btw learn the history of the first two men before you start white knighting for them.
and here i thought you dcant stand racists. or mayhaps its just that you hate everyone that disagrees with you? And no, neither of your examples are PC. what is PC is to expect others to have no opinions ever because somone somewhere may get offended.

the hidden eagle said:
He could've phrased the tweet by saying how Donald Sterling should be able to say whatver he wants in private.However Mr.Olin started it off by calling him a victim which is what likely led to him being fired.
So calling a victim of illegal wiretap a victim gets you fired now?

Kumagawa Misogi said:
I have a friend who about 11 years ago was accused by a girl he dumped of raping her and then he was subsequently arrested. He was released without charge when her friend who had been with her when the supposed rape took place returned from her holiday found out what had happened and went to the police, the accuser then admitted she made the whole thing up.

He lost his job and since then he has never been able to get even an interview for another job because the first thing when his name is googled is 'arrested for rape'.
and here you make a perfect example of why companies should not have a right to decide on firing/hiring you based on such things. and the only way to ensure that is to stop mob justice that happens to these people when they are hired.

Kuchinawa212 said:
Welp people are entitled to their opinion. If that's not the company's opinion he shouldn't be that vocal about it.
so hes entitled to his opinion, but he shouldnt be vocal about it? how does that even make sense.



LifeCharacter said:
Except that there's a very reasonable rule that needs to be put on punishments for speech, that they have to be punishments proportionate to something like speech. Murder and imprisonment are not proportionate, but people deciding not to associate with you, or patronize your place of business (or where you are employed) seems reasonable. The loss of a job is merely a result of being ostracized. We have rules against cruel and unusual punishment for crimes, so I don't see why we can't apply the same thing to speech, where anything like imprisonment or violence is considered cruel or unusual.

As for the complexity, it's the exact same complexity as the criminal justice system then (in that regard at least). If, for example, you think murder should be met with the death penalty and I think murder should be met with 25-to-life, that just means we argue about it, it doesn't mean that we just decide that punishing murders wrong because we can't come to a consensus of what murder should be punished with. Public shaming may be "mob justice" but it's mob justice dolled out through people exercising their rights to criticize and ostracize peopel they don't like, so let's not pretend we're lynching people.

As for your last statement, find me an example of one of these bigoted heroes of free speech everyone loves defending that faced more than public shaming and losing their job or having something of theirs boycotted. If you can't, then the proportional punishment for outspoken bigotry, public shaming and the results thereof, usually happens. I don't consider it naive to believe that the only things that have happened represent what usually happens.
and you dont see a problem here? Sigh. if i were to say i dont like black people, my business woudl be decreased because of it now. but would be increased 100 years ago. so basically what you are saying is that we should punish people for opinions that arent popular now and ostracize them from society? Well, if that was true, then we would have ostracized people who fought for women voting rights, for equality of blacks, for no sexism. What you want to do is to destroy the cardinal rule that allowed your views to get popular in the first place - not being persecuted for them. And if you really want to go back to 2000 years ago where decisions was made based on which group shouted louder then i may just as well giveup this.

Its not same complexity, its more complex, because in criminal justice majority at least agrees that the person did something wrong, which is clearly not the case here. To use your example, if you think murder should be met with death penalty and i think murderer should be let free, and then you got a million people on each side of this argument, its much much more complex situation than deciding between death penalty and 25 years.
Mob justice is mob justice is mob justice. no matter what dolled it out or what rights they abused to get there, its still mob justice.

so your just going to ignore all of those that got beat up or even murdered for having different view? or all of those now in prison for having different political view? yes, i will call it naive, because thats what it is.
 

Riff Moonraker

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"While I see (but don't agree with) Olin's point of view, and at the same time abhor Sterling's bigotry, the tweet poses an interesting dilemma worth following"

Yeah, I have a HUGE problem with this statement, and the whole thing surrounding Sterling. If he was getting called out or cracked down on because of public behavior or comments towards others, then thats one thing. However, ANY DAMN ONE OF US has a right to say what the hell we want to say in the privacy of our own damn homes. But this country has gotten so politically correct, that we are now going down this path where you arent even safe to speak your mind (whether its right or wrong) in the privacy of your own home, NOR are you able to DEFEND the right to your own privacy without getting canned apparently.

Shameful. Even worse, I can promise you that most people on these forums will completely agree with someone getting popped for something like this in the privacy of their own home. The ones that do... are basically willing to give up their personal freedoms, no matter how you try to spin it.
 

FFMaster

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Suhi89 said:
People need to stop discussing freedom of speech in terms of the First Amendment, except when purely talking about the American legal system. Over 6 and a half billion people live in parts of the world (that would be the vast majority of it) that aren't America and so the First Amendment is completely irrelevant to them.
Your right, people should stop bringing up the freedom of speech. Instead they should be talking about the freedom of expression which we all have as part of the human rights act.All of us including Americans and people from Europe.

The freedom of expression says that we have the right to voice our own opinions, now there are limits basically to say that we cannot voice it if it is false etc but we have the right to say what we damn well please.

We also have the right to privacy under the same right, so workplaces if they are digging stuff up are infringing on that as well.
 

Something Amyss

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Strazdas said:
imagine if that was same for punishment of speech.
Yes....Imagine....

marthin luther king would have died in jail.
As opposed to a violent death after a life of violence and years protesting against it which led to more violence, not to mention his inevitable death.

the activits who started female right to vote campaign would have been beat up to death and we would have still live in society of 18th century full of racism and sexism.
Well, except those people were subject to majority rules, and somehow managed to actually change the system anyway. If you don't understand history, don't bring it up.

It i was because they had no consequences for their unpopular opinions that our society managed to progress in this way.
Except being assaulted, jailed, etc. You know, things that happened in your examples.

by punishing people for unpopular speech you are hampering progress, just like the middle ages held back the wesntern world for decades.
And what progress is going to come from banning black people at Clippers games, or sexually harassing black people?

Publish shaming is mob justice. nothing more, nothing less. i hope i dont have to tell you why mob justice is wrong.
By your logic, blacks and suffragettes were also practicing mob justice. Tell me why they were wrong.
 

Cliff_m85

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Someone Depressing said:
Yes, it's his home. He can do what he wants in it. Cook meth, have sex with yeast-based products, plot to burn down the White House, whatever. It's when his bullshit is spouted all over the internert intentional or not, when it becomes a problem, because it's there for everyone to see.

Looks like Evolve, which I was kind of interested in, won't be played by me ever. Oh well, back to my cave.
I agree with the dude. His wife recorded him, obviously without his knowledge, and sent it around the world for all to hear. Let's ignore, for a moment, what was on that tape and think about context.

He was talking to his wife, which he assumed was a private conversation.
His wife SOLD the tape, where the drama started to take hold.
He's fired from the NBA (which is no prob, they have every right to fire him).
Some duder from a video game company says "Hey, it's kinda messed up that his wife secretly recorded him".
Video Game Company fires guy for simply stating an opinion with NO RACIAL attributes in it whatsoever.

Now it's obvious that what the NBA dude said was just stupid and racist, but two wrongs don't make a right. The wife/girlfriend was in the wrong as well.

I'm against the decision to remove the video game dude for stating his opinion on privacy.
 

Bluestorm83

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Zachary Amaranth said:
And what progress is going to come from banning black people at Clippers games, or sexually harassing black people?
Snipped down.

He wasn't banning black people at Clippers games. Did you even hear his comments? He was telling his Mistress that he didn't want her seen with black people in public, because of how it made him look. He didn't care if she brought black people back to HIS HOUSE to have sex with them. This wasn't a "racist rant," as the media loves to label it. This was a sad old man who had a hot young (paid) mistress as a trophy to show all his friends what a stud he was, and what good is a trophy when everyone else has one too?

Don't get me wrong, he's a gross adulterating bigot. Frankly, I wouldn't care if he dropped dead tomorrow. But we can not, CAN NOT give even an inch on rights to free speech. If society as a whole is allowed to punish a man for what he says, then what is to stop that same society from punishing what you say next? And make no mistake, all of society is arrayed against him. The news, the internet, his employees, the government, and more. Your argument that freedom of speech is not without consequence is bunk. When the principle of freedom of speech was first drafted by the founding fathers, they had just fought a war where they were free to say whatever they want, but the King was also free to hang them for it. "Oh, well, that's just consequence, oh well!"

If someone says something you disagree with, ARGUE AGAINST IT. Take facts and build a case. Don't threaten financial ruin and social censure. That's terrorism. When you force someone to disavow what they believe and take actions that they do not want to do under the threat of reprisal if they do not is TERRORISM. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle didn't stand in the Agora shunning people who disagreed with them. They built logical arguments to convince their detractors. Christ didn't raise an army and siege Jerusalem and force people to believe he was the messiah, he showed them things in the scripture that pointed to him. Everyone was free to disagree with any of them.

To attack a man because you can't attack his point of view is cowardly and lazy, and it solves nothing. To censor an idea doesn't make it die, it leaves it under the skin to fester and spread. And to force another to stifle his speech opens the door for others to do the same to me.
 

Cliff_m85

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the hidden eagle said:
Cliff_m85 said:
Someone Depressing said:
Yes, it's his home. He can do what he wants in it. Cook meth, have sex with yeast-based products, plot to burn down the White House, whatever. It's when his bullshit is spouted all over the internert intentional or not, when it becomes a problem, because it's there for everyone to see.

Looks like Evolve, which I was kind of interested in, won't be played by me ever. Oh well, back to my cave.
I agree with the dude. His wife recorded him, obviously without his knowledge, and sent it around the world for all to hear. Let's ignore, for a moment, what was on that tape and think about context.

He was talking to his wife, which he assumed was a private conversation.
His wife SOLD the tape, where the drama started to take hold.
He's fired from the NBA (which is no prob, they have every right to fire him).
Some duder from a video game company says "Hey, it's kinda messed up that his wife secretly recorded him".
Video Game Company fires guy for simply stating an opinion with NO RACIAL attributes in it whatsoever.

Now it's obvious that what the NBA dude said was just stupid and racist, but two wrongs don't make a right. The wife/girlfriend was in the wrong as well.

I'm against the decision to remove the video game dude for stating his opinion on privacy.
Actually he was'nt recorded without him knowing about it.Donald was said to ask being recorded because he was afraid of forgetting things.

This is why it helps to have all the facts since it was the mistress and not his wife that leaked the tape allegedly.
So he asked to be recorded so as to remember, for himself, what he had said in the past? How does this change my opinion exactly?

Still seems like invasion of privacy.
 

WoodenPlanck

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Kumagawa Misogi said:
[. . .]
You must watch what you do or say at all times because nothing is ever forgotten with the internet.

He was released without charge when her friend who had been with her when the supposed rape took place returned from her holiday found out what had happened and went to the police, the accuser then admitted she made the whole thing up.

He lost his job and since then he has never been able to get even an interview for another job because the first thing when his name is googled is 'arrested for rape'.
It really sounds like you are arguing FOR Libel/Defamation/Slander to be an okay thing. Worrying.

Zachary Amaranth said:
the hidden eagle said:
Damn that sucks...this is why I wish there was a law that protected thoe who were falsely accused of things like rape and child abuse.
There are. But as you cannot mandate social policy, that's meaningless.
It's more like there are laws, but lawsuits and court are a rich person's game. Also, social policies exist (welfare state, social security, unemployment insurance, environmental policy, pensions, health care, social housing, social care, child protection, social exclusion, education policy, crime and criminal justice to name a few), it's just that mandating specific social interactions amongst individuals is meaningless.

LifeCharacter said:
Public shaming may be "mob justice" but it's mob justice dolled out through people exercising their rights to criticize and ostracize peopel they don't like, so let's not pretend we're lynching people.

As for your last statement, find me an example of one of these bigoted heroes of free speech everyone loves defending that faced more than public shaming and losing their job or having something of theirs boycotted.
I'd also like to point out that ostracism in Athens and other democracies was a legal penalty "doled out" through a democratic(read: mob based) justice system, just like the death penalty via suffocation on a cross, hemlock, etc. and subsequent seizure/razing of property. By saying there is a right to ostracism you are effectively arguing for public right to lynchings too, even if you don't agree with them. So no, ostracism isn't peoples', or The People's(TM) "right" if you believe in due process of law, and if you don't you are justifying people for whom "might makes right".

For better or worse, we don't live in an agrarian society. If you prevent someone from becoming employed to make a livable wage you are effectively sentencing them to be a financial burden on the state, or to be starved and are effectively bypassing due process of law. Ultimately this promotes the power of potential slanderers/calumniators to abuse popular opinion for their personal gains/whims.

Another worrying thing I have seen in threads like these are the people whom agree with the company that sacking the controversial person was a good idea, and then STILL choose to boycott whatever product it is anyways. I could understand if they kept the person that was controversial on, but choosing to negatively reinforce behavior that is in agreement with you doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I personally agree with Olin, and the spirit of what he was trying to do. The fact that backlash of this magnitude was generated from it only proves his point that much more solidly. I'd much rather see Social Mercy than "Social Justice" because all "Social Justice" looks like to me is social retaliation and the changing of the guard from one tyrannical culture to another. I'd personally rather live in a society where people don't have to maintain an air of plausible-deniability in order to get gainfully employed and are open about their views so those views can be scrutinized, tested, and challenged.

Riot3000 said:
This is not a first amendment issue because this was the NBA's decision which is the the private sector that so many people jump to defense of. The same private sector that can fire you for seeing a picture of you with beer in your hands not drunk just a beer in your hands on facebook and those same people will say just deal with it but come to the defense of this bigot of the cognitive dissonance could feed the world.

Plus I am not calling this guy a victim you bring about this info of your stupid views of blacks and hispanics to your black and hispanic mixed mistress and not expect that to bite you in the ass.
I have a problem with the beer thing too, and I certainly don't agree with people having to sign their life and right to opinions/legal activities away to have a job. This is something that gained a high profile, so of course it will draw in both detractors and supporters. I haven't personally seen people arguing over what you brought up, nor do I hear about it often; but I will give you one non-dissonant example: I don't approve of what you pointed out either. The fact that these issues exist, and that there are many opinions about them suggest FoS is at the heart of this. Others have pointed out that part of the issue in question is where the line for 'private speech' and what responsible 'consequences' are in an age where privacy is receding into nothingness very quickly. I'd say that's a VERY important issue to tackle before it becomes a serious headache for all of society (probably a little late for that). I feel people who are arguing for Olin share this sentiment at heart and they may just not have put it into words.
 

Kuchinawa212

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Strazdas said:
Makes plenty of sense. If you're a community manager at a company, which is pretty responsible for the way the public sees your projects, then maybe- JUST MAYBE- saying controversial things might be better expressed in private then on the net where everyone can see it. You can have opinions, express them openly but doesn't mean you're free of the ramifications of what you're saying.
 

Brian Tams

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I'm going to make one point here and then be done.


Donald Sterling is not going to jail for his comments. He's not being persecuted by the U.S. Government in any form for his comments. His right to free speech is not being violated because of this.
 

Bonecrusher

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Pickapok said:
Looking through this thread and seeing all these people swearing off buying the game... you guys are the definition of petty.

Just because one guy out of the HUNDREDS associated with the game, somebody who doesn't even WORK ON the game but manages its forums and community plays devil advocate, you are going to punish the entire group, developer and publisher? Granted in the end your handful of purchases won't amount to much damage, but seriously? How would you feel if someone recorded something you said or did in the privacy of your home and publicized it for the world to see? Would you want the world at large to know the kind of porn you look at? Or something else equally embarrassing?

Yeah, the guy is a bigot and an ass. I don't care who you are, you should pay respect to Magic Johnson. But he said these things in the privacy of his own home, not on national TV or radio and it would have never reached the attention of the public if the recording had not been leaked. We've all got skeletons in the closet we'd rather others didn't know about.
This is the Age of Politically Correctness. Even a tiny mistake is overly dramatized by the people...