You can still have an in-universe explanation while being frank about the motivation for a design choice in real life. The point is that it's ridiculous to pretend like the in-universe explanation is the ONLY reason for a designing the characterz this way, and not a shoe-horned justification.
Sure, unless the writer actually just wrote the character as the character would wear/do/behave.
If I wrote a character in a story, who's personality is heavy on the "needlessly needs to prove how tough he is", it'd make perfect sense in-character for the dude to (at least try) to be in an arctic environment without a shirt. My choice on having the character shirtless, even in a cold environment wouldn't have any reason beyond "well, it'd be in character". In my hypothetical there, it wasn't some sneaky ploy to get sexy shirtless men in the story, it's because "Well yeah, it's kinda stupid, but that's how Ted rolls".
So why can't the in-universe justification itself be sufficient? Because that seems to be the running theme for a lot of people in this thread, that "Of COURSE writers can't add anything just because it's part of the story/fits the character. It HAS to be some kind of subversive ploy!"
NeoGAF even went as far as to claim that having sexy action figures made somehow constitutes "sexual harassment" and they were about to go contact and harass Stefani Joosten about it:
Well, that's pretty unfair from NeoGAF, I think... wait, what does it say there? "Quiet figurine features squishable boobs"? Oh, that's so silly and tacky that I can't type with a straight face. No way to take that nor any controversy around it seriously now.
Except George Kamitani doesn't have the entire media sphere AND the companies they work for watching their every single move, tweet, and reply like Frank O' Connor and Hideo Kojima. So they're really not applicable. Both of them have so much more to lose than Kamitani.
Also, I don't remember Bungie or 343 ever giving an explanation for Cortana's bareness.
Were I designing the game I'd say the exact same thing; you don't have to apologize for what you like. I find the idea that titillating design is somehow inherently degrading of it's subject to be troubling; it smacks of puritanism.
It's not inherently degrading (see characters like Queen of Pain, Bayonetta, Kaine, Juliet from Lollipop Chainsaw, etc, all great, all sexualized in a way that fits their character), but it's a creative decision that carries weight and like any tool in an artist's toolbox, it can be used incorrectly or inappropriately.
That's true, but that's not how people behave. They behave as though it's the most important decision a designer can make; as if it's presence alone can totally devalue a character or a game.
I've encountered at least one person who swore off a whole series of games because he thought the design of the female characters was too uniform and too sexual.
Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! I never post on these forums but this comic is just too good. I hate seeing all the man children on reddit defending Kojima's lame excuse. Just say you like tits why what the hell is wrong with that?
I haven't played MGSV (partially due to story spoilers i've heard i don't like, might get it if/when it is on sale), Dragon's Crown (don't like the art style, and even if i did, not my type of game) or any of the Halo's past 2 (could not get 3rd on pc, lost interest), but...
I don't really mind half naked women in video games (though i will point them out when they seem out of place in the context).
But the explanation for both Cortana and Quiet, seem pretty stupid.
Explanation for the Sorcerer is not all that great, but atleast it is within the general aesthetic of the game, and the explanation (i like tits) is a honest one.
If you want to have a character go around half naked, then that half nakedness should fit the character, either through context of the situation the character is in, or the personality that the character has.
If they are half naked just for fan service, either come up with a decent explanation, or just outright admit that it's for fan service, half baked explanations are just insulting to the listener.
In 2 out of 3 cases here, i know of them mostly due to response to criticism, instead of the actual criticism.
(my impression of what happened, so i may have missed things)
Dragon's Crown:
Critic says the art is juvenile, artists implies the critic is gay (critic and artist later reconcile)
MGSV:
Critics think sniper wearing a bikini is silly/stupid/just there for fanservice, Kojima says it is for plot reasons and critics will regret their words when they find out why.
Critics find out why, and the reason is stupid/silly, Kojima later clarifies that it is purely for fanservice
As for Halo and naked cortana.
I heard about it, went "WTF?", and moved on not really caring nor hearing anything about it afterwards.
I support this approach. Own it. Say you like tits. You can say there's an in-universe justification for a character being a Miss Universe (hell, it might even be a good one, like Miranda Lawson in ME2), but if someone doubts you, it's okay to admit to the reality. Just don't be a perv or a creep about it. The two are not mutually inclusive.
I would even go as far as saying, that the design of the Sorceress fits Dragon's Crown better than the designs of Quiet and Cortana in their respective games. The Characters in Dragon's Crown are all designed in an over the top way, and each one is unique (the Barbarian with her thunder thigs, the slightly androgynous elven archer and the knight, who clearly skipped leg day). It might even be less gratuitious than the other games, since the Sorceress was designed that way to fit the character. In the other games it was just "yay for tits".
I still remember that Kamitani got his fair share of flak because of tillitation in Dragon's Crown, though. But if people have finally moved on, that's cool.
Yes, Kojima hyped up the supposed explanation for Quiet's attire too much. And chopper yoga felt like pushing it too far, imho.
I have no interest in Halo and therefore Cortana¯\_(ツ_/¯
I think a good deal of the backlash might have been from the fact that when someone initially criticized his design, his response was to essentially call the critic gay, sending him a drawing of three big burly men and saying "Maybe you'd prefer this?" Not exactly a mature response.
Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."
I'd rather be told that than fed bullshit, to be honest. "We're largely looking for a male audience" isn't great PR, but it's honest. "WOMEN ARE HARD TO ANIMATE," is the kind of shit that genuinely makes people angry.
Actually - they are. But only because of male oversaturation in animation, and most animators being male and knowing how their own bodies move internally and externally. But that shouldn't be an issue for an AAA studio.
That said, males are much harder to draw than females due to greater muscle definition making their bodies more 'noisy', and unattractive people of either gender are harder still.
Thyunda said:
Czann said:
In "PC gone mad" country they don't have the spine to say "because I want them to be sexy."
In "PC? What's that?" country they don't need to grovel to the permanently angry and offended internet people.
Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."
Nah, the game actually, canonically, states that the virus/parasite/whatever caused the people to long to "dress in the garb of their ancestors". Yes, I'm not making that up, it's stated in some of the journals you find scattered about.
The point where your zombie infection causes people to feel the overwhelming desire to don grass skirts and chuck spears at the protagonists is definitely the point of racism, to me. Though it wouldn't have caused me to roll my eyes quite so much if we saw a few kilts and celtic robes on the zombies in raccoon city.
You mean like the castle full of mace--wielding robed monks that took the second story beat in RE4? You know, the other game that actually featured the same bioweapon?
I come back to the Escapist for the first time in months and this is what I see, another argument. This is better than Tumblr tho.
OT: But I thought Quiet really did breath through her skin? Or the the problem more that she's not wearing a sports bra? Either way, I find them all more cute than sexy.
I'd rather be told that than fed bullshit, to be honest. "We're largely looking for a male audience" isn't great PR, but it's honest. "WOMEN ARE HARD TO ANIMATE," is the kind of shit that genuinely makes people angry.
Actually - they are. But only because of male oversaturation in animation, and most animators being male and knowing how their own bodies move internally and externally.
I don't buy it. GTA IV already nailed it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_5e7joVK_U#t=5m32s] I picked the male walking style in Saints Row 2 and couldn't tell a difference. Compared to the way Ciri ran in The Witcher 3... I loved that game, but that was painful to watch.
Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."
I think a good deal of the backlash might have been from the fact that when someone initially criticized his design, his response was to essentially call the critic gay, sending him a drawing of three big burly men and saying "Maybe you'd prefer this?" Not exactly a mature response.
I'm a fervid feminist, but after playing Dragon's Crown I didn't find an issue with the boobalicious witch character. I mean, did you LOOK at the warrior??
Seems to me the whole art style exaggerates human features. I like it.
As for Cortana... give us a male Cortana, because I really want to see the public reaction.
Overdeveloped pects, and no genitalia? I don't see the outcry. Chest maps to chest, not to crotch.
As for Quiet... all she needed was to have clothes as her primary outfit, and the sexy bikini as the unlockable alternate. Too bad they had to make her so ridiculous that I can't possibly consider her as anything more than tits&ass.
So, you'll objectify whats supposed to be a woman based on the way she dresses?
1981 said:
Scow2 said:
The Wooster said:
I'd rather be told that than fed bullshit, to be honest. "We're largely looking for a male audience" isn't great PR, but it's honest. "WOMEN ARE HARD TO ANIMATE," is the kind of shit that genuinely makes people angry.
Actually - they are. But only because of male oversaturation in animation, and most animators being male and knowing how their own bodies move internally and externally.
I don't buy it. GTA IV already nailed it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_5e7joVK_U#t=5m32s] I picked the male walking style in Saints Row 2 and couldn't tell a difference. Compared to the way Ciri ran in The Witcher 3... I loved that game, but that was painful to watch.
I should have clarified that it's not really an excuse for a high-production value game. Also - Saints Row is all about being and looking how you want.
You mean like the castle full of mace--wielding robed monks that took the second story beat in RE4? You know, the other game that actually featured the same bioweapon?
if RE4 had canonically stated that the bioweapon was the cause of their attire, then sure. *shrug* Seems more likely that Saddler just had a god complex, and his followers worshiped him as such, but there's little point in debating hypothetical scenarios. Doesn't bug me much, one way or the other, I was just clarifying a point.
It occurs to me that with all the RE talk, I never actually addressed the comic's message, itself. Honestly, I'm kinda torn as to whether a flimsy justification for fanservice is or isn't better than just admitting it's there for creator/audience appeal and leaving it at that. In general, if a game must include fanservice, I'd prefer the latter approach. However, there are times when, even though the excuse provided is lame, its presence actually makes me happier than if it was absent.
I'll use a recent example to try to explain what I mean: the game I'm currently playing is Tales of Zestiria. The female lead of said game is a knight, and she wears a full, armored outfit, more or less what you'd expect from a character with that profession, with one exception: Her thighs... which are completely naked.
Now, I know what the out of universe/REAL reason for this is. They wanted to give her kind of "schoolgirl" look, and appeal to the zettai ryouiki fetish (basically, an obsession with the inches of bare skin between the top of the knee socks and the bottom of the skirt in a female uniform,) which is extremely prominent in Japan. this is all fine and good, but as with all examples of the "breast plate" trope, a little eye-roll worthy, too.
extremely minor spoilers follow, but I'll tag it just in case.
The game actually, to my surprise, addressed this in a skit, where it was revealed that the character's army has been handed down her family, generation to generation, and to both genders, and that every part of the armor except the arms and legs was completely transparent, due to the suit being forged to combat a dragon who had a sight-based instant-destruction power. Thus, while it looked like her thighs were vulnerable, her entire body was actually armored.
Was it a deep, well-thought out plot justification? No, not really. Kinda on-the-nose, and it raises as many questions as it answers, yet, seeing the skit that explained all of this made me really happy. It's so rare for a game to actually acknowledge that it dresses its female warriors in less-than-protective attire in the name of fanservice. In most games they just pretend they didn't do it at all. Having the writers actually create an aside where they go "yeah, we know this outfit is less than ideal for the front lines of a battlefield, we're gonna try to explain why it's like this in-universe." was really refreshing to me.
I guess the difference maker is the context. *shrug* plus, as full of holes as the tales example is, it's way more thought out than what we got from the MGS or Halo examples.
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_/¯
