Excuse-O-Rama

[1981]

I'd rather be told that than fed bullshit, to be honest. "We're largely looking for a male audience" isn't great PR, but it's honest. "WOMEN ARE HARD TO ANIMATE," is the kind of shit that genuinely makes people angry.

Actually - they are. But only because of male oversaturation in animation, and most animators being male and knowing how their own bodies move internally and externally.

I don't buy it. GTA IV already nailed it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_5e7joVK_U#t=5m32s] I picked the male walking style in Saints Row 2 and couldn't tell a difference. Compared to the way Ciri ran in The Witcher 3... I loved that game, but that was painful to watch.

 

[9tailedflame]

In "PC gone mad" country they don't have the spine to say "because I want them to be sexy."

In "PC? What's that?" country they don't need to grovel to the permanently angry and offended internet people.

Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."

But see, fiction =/= reality. That's the whole point of fiction.

 

[wulf3n]

I think a good deal of the backlash might have been from the fact that when someone initially criticized his design, his response was to essentially call the critic gay, sending him a drawing of three big burly men and saying "Maybe you'd prefer this?" Not exactly a mature response.

Are we calling blatant insults criticism now?

 

[Scow2]

I'm a fervid feminist, but after playing Dragon's Crown I didn't find an issue with the boobalicious witch character. I mean, did you LOOK at the warrior??
Seems to me the whole art style exaggerates human features. I like it.

As for Cortana... give us a male Cortana, because I really want to see the public reaction.

Overdeveloped pects, and no genitalia? I don't see the outcry. Chest maps to chest, not to crotch.

As for Quiet... all she needed was to have clothes as her primary outfit, and the sexy bikini as the unlockable alternate. Too bad they had to make her so ridiculous that I can't possibly consider her as anything more than tits&ass.

So, you'll objectify whats supposed to be a woman based on the way she dresses?

I'd rather be told that than fed bullshit, to be honest. "We're largely looking for a male audience" isn't great PR, but it's honest. "WOMEN ARE HARD TO ANIMATE," is the kind of shit that genuinely makes people angry.

Actually - they are. But only because of male oversaturation in animation, and most animators being male and knowing how their own bodies move internally and externally.

I don't buy it. GTA IV already nailed it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_5e7joVK_U#t=5m32s] I picked the male walking style in Saints Row 2 and couldn't tell a difference. Compared to the way Ciri ran in The Witcher 3... I loved that game, but that was painful to watch.

I should have clarified that it's not really an excuse for a high-production value game. Also - Saints Row is all about being and looking how you want.

 

[balladbird]

You mean like the castle full of mace--wielding robed monks that took the second story beat in RE4? You know, the other game that actually featured the same bioweapon?

if RE4 had canonically stated that the bioweapon was the cause of their attire, then sure. *shrug* Seems more likely that Saddler just had a god complex, and his followers worshiped him as such, but there's little point in debating hypothetical scenarios. Doesn't bug me much, one way or the other, I was just clarifying a point.


It occurs to me that with all the RE talk, I never actually addressed the comic's message, itself. Honestly, I'm kinda torn as to whether a flimsy justification for fanservice is or isn't better than just admitting it's there for creator/audience appeal and leaving it at that. In general, if a game must include fanservice, I'd prefer the latter approach. However, there are times when, even though the excuse provided is lame, its presence actually makes me happier than if it was absent.

I'll use a recent example to try to explain what I mean: the game I'm currently playing is Tales of Zestiria. The female lead of said game is a knight, and she wears a full, armored outfit, more or less what you'd expect from a character with that profession, with one exception: Her thighs... which are completely naked.

Now, I know what the out of universe/REAL reason for this is. They wanted to give her kind of "schoolgirl" look, and appeal to the zettai ryouiki fetish (basically, an obsession with the inches of bare skin between the top of the knee socks and the bottom of the skirt in a female uniform,) which is extremely prominent in Japan. this is all fine and good, but as with all examples of the "breast plate" trope, a little eye-roll worthy, too.

extremely minor spoilers follow, but I'll tag it just in case.

Spoiler

The game actually, to my surprise, addressed this in a skit, where it was revealed that the character's army has been handed down her family, generation to generation, and to both genders, and that every part of the armor except the arms and legs was completely transparent, due to the suit being forged to combat a dragon who had a sight-based instant-destruction power. Thus, while it looked like her thighs were vulnerable, her entire body was actually armored.

Was it a deep, well-thought out plot justification? No, not really. Kinda on-the-nose, and it raises as many questions as it answers, yet, seeing the skit that explained all of this made me really happy. It's so rare for a game to actually acknowledge that it dresses its female warriors in less-than-protective attire in the name of fanservice. In most games they just pretend they didn't do it at all. Having the writers actually create an aside where they go "yeah, we know this outfit is less than ideal for the front lines of a battlefield, we're gonna try to explain why it's like this in-universe." was really refreshing to me.

I guess the difference maker is the context. *shrug* plus, as full of holes as the tales example is, it's way more thought out than what we got from the MGS or Halo examples.

 

[Thyunda]

In "PC gone mad" country they don't have the spine to say "because I want them to be sexy."

In "PC? What's that?" country they don't need to grovel to the permanently angry and offended internet people.

Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."

But see, fiction =/= reality. That's the whole point of fiction.

Fiction's gotta be relatable. This is why stand-up comedians tell stories that get more "I know that feeling" responses than actual laughs. This is why 'everyman' protagonists exist. If fiction has no grounding whatsoever in reality, it's simply not popular fiction. Authors, developers, filmmakers and scriptwriters all base their work in reality because otherwise their audience simply isn't going to care.
Even if your protagonist is an alien or an orc, they're an alien or an orc with relationship problems or a shitty job with a shitty boss. Only the villains' minions are totally alien, and that's because they have to be hateable. That's why the Modern Warfare franchise's protagonists are American marines with a side of British special forces, and the enemies are various shades of Arab or Russian. Foreign language and a foreign culture portrayed as totally unapproachable concepts in order to create a divide of good and bad guys. Halo had the Covenant, and then developed the Arbiter and other Covenant defectors or agents to be much more sympathetic, and since they stopped being faceless, alien villains, they added the Prometheans to fill that gap.

If you think fiction is totally divorced from reality, then you've probably never got a story published.

 

[9tailedflame]

In "PC gone mad" country they don't have the spine to say "because I want them to be sexy."

In "PC? What's that?" country they don't need to grovel to the permanently angry and offended internet people.

Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."

But see, fiction =/= reality. That's the whole point of fiction.

Fiction's gotta be relatable. This is why stand-up comedians tell stories that get more "I know that feeling" responses than actual laughs. This is why 'everyman' protagonists exist. If fiction has no grounding whatsoever in reality, it's simply not popular fiction. Authors, developers, filmmakers and scriptwriters all base their work in reality because otherwise their audience simply isn't going to care.
Even if your protagonist is an alien or an orc, they're an alien or an orc with relationship problems or a shitty job with a shitty boss. Only the villains' minions are totally alien, and that's because they have to be hateable. That's why the Modern Warfare franchise's protagonists are American marines with a side of British special forces, and the enemies are various shades of Arab or Russian. Foreign language and a foreign culture portrayed as totally unapproachable concepts in order to create a divide of good and bad guys. Halo had the Covenant, and then developed the Arbiter and other Covenant defectors or agents to be much more sympathetic, and since they stopped being faceless, alien villains, they added the Prometheans to fill that gap.

If you think fiction is totally divorced from reality, then you've probably never got a story published.

Was quiet really that bad? So bad that she was "totally divorced from reality?" Are you really going to use the grey, wall-hugger, boring, military default shooters to argue for more "realistic" games? Because to be totally honest, that just makes you sound like you hate the concept of crazy, creative, different games. Your vision of the games industry is one i do not want to live in, where there's no protaganist who isn't in the military, where there's "good guys" and "bad guys" and no attempt at moral complexity beyond that, no game that isn't a play-it-straight FPS, and anything even approaching high fantasy is seen as flawed because of it. No thank you.

 

[Scow2]

Overdeveloped pects, and no genitalia? I don't see the outcry. Chest maps to chest, not to crotch.

This isn't about physical mapping, because that's not how it works. This is about sexualization, and you sexualize females and males differently.

A male Cortana would pretty much look like this:

Except without the dick. No, you don't sexualize males and females differently. Unless you're a sexist. You'd still sexualize the chest and shoulders and hip ratio and butt, though, and give the impression of a package, but it wouldn't be a full-on schlong.

When you go to a BATTLEFIELD wearing a bikini and fishnets.... yes, obviously.
Add to that how the soldier (or surgeon, or lawyer, or any work you might imagine) not only does his job in a bikini, but also strikes sexy poses when you look.

Or maybe I could go to high school in the same outfit Quiet is wearing? And if the headmaster or the parents of my students complain, I can say "oh, you objectify me based on how I dress!".

I hope you're not claiming Quiet is NOT meant to be fanservice....

Socially unacceptable =/= Sex Object. . A stripper at work is still a person. A soldier/surgeon/professional is expected to dress for their job, but it doesn't make them merely T&A or any less of a person if they choose to express themselves in a sexualized manner (And don't give me the "It's not a person, so it's not choosing" horseshit. It's a representation and supposed to be a person, so it's close enough. Otherwise, you're arguing that it's immoral to portray people in any manner other than what society demands they be portrayed as). A stripper, student, etc who chooses to go to work in fishnets and a bikini is unprofessional, not inhuman.

 

[Thyunda]

In "PC gone mad" country they don't have the spine to say "because I want them to be sexy."

In "PC? What's that?" country they don't need to grovel to the permanently angry and offended internet people.

Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."

But see, fiction =/= reality. That's the whole point of fiction.

Fiction's gotta be relatable. This is why stand-up comedians tell stories that get more "I know that feeling" responses than actual laughs. This is why 'everyman' protagonists exist. If fiction has no grounding whatsoever in reality, it's simply not popular fiction. Authors, developers, filmmakers and scriptwriters all base their work in reality because otherwise their audience simply isn't going to care.
Even if your protagonist is an alien or an orc, they're an alien or an orc with relationship problems or a shitty job with a shitty boss. Only the villains' minions are totally alien, and that's because they have to be hateable. That's why the Modern Warfare franchise's protagonists are American marines with a side of British special forces, and the enemies are various shades of Arab or Russian. Foreign language and a foreign culture portrayed as totally unapproachable concepts in order to create a divide of good and bad guys. Halo had the Covenant, and then developed the Arbiter and other Covenant defectors or agents to be much more sympathetic, and since they stopped being faceless, alien villains, they added the Prometheans to fill that gap.

If you think fiction is totally divorced from reality, then you've probably never got a story published.

Was quiet really that bad? So bad that she was "totally divorced from reality?" Are you really going to use the grey, wall-hugger, boring, military default shooters to argue for more "realistic" games? Because to be totally honest, that just makes you sound like you hate the concept of crazy, creative, different games. Your vision of the games industry is one i do not want to live in, where there's no protaganist who isn't in the military, where there's "good guys" and "bad guys" and no attempt at moral complexity beyond that, no game that isn't a play-it-straight FPS, and anything even approaching high fantasy is seen as flawed because of it. No thank you.

If Quiet is your definition of 'crazy, creative and different,' we have been playing very different games.

And that's all I'm going to say, because the rest of your argument is based around a totally facetious interpretation of my post and I honestly don't have the time nor motivation to repeat myself.

 

[9tailedflame]

In "PC gone mad" country they don't have the spine to say "because I want them to be sexy."

In "PC? What's that?" country they don't need to grovel to the permanently angry and offended internet people.

Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."

But see, fiction =/= reality. That's the whole point of fiction.

Fiction's gotta be relatable. This is why stand-up comedians tell stories that get more "I know that feeling" responses than actual laughs. This is why 'everyman' protagonists exist. If fiction has no grounding whatsoever in reality, it's simply not popular fiction. Authors, developers, filmmakers and scriptwriters all base their work in reality because otherwise their audience simply isn't going to care.
Even if your protagonist is an alien or an orc, they're an alien or an orc with relationship problems or a shitty job with a shitty boss. Only the villains' minions are totally alien, and that's because they have to be hateable. That's why the Modern Warfare franchise's protagonists are American marines with a side of British special forces, and the enemies are various shades of Arab or Russian. Foreign language and a foreign culture portrayed as totally unapproachable concepts in order to create a divide of good and bad guys. Halo had the Covenant, and then developed the Arbiter and other Covenant defectors or agents to be much more sympathetic, and since they stopped being faceless, alien villains, they added the Prometheans to fill that gap.

If you think fiction is totally divorced from reality, then you've probably never got a story published.

Was quiet really that bad? So bad that she was "totally divorced from reality?" Are you really going to use the grey, wall-hugger, boring, military default shooters to argue for more "realistic" games? Because to be totally honest, that just makes you sound like you hate the concept of crazy, creative, different games. Your vision of the games industry is one i do not want to live in, where there's no protaganist who isn't in the military, where there's "good guys" and "bad guys" and no attempt at moral complexity beyond that, no game that isn't a play-it-straight FPS, and anything even approaching high fantasy is seen as flawed because of it. No thank you.

If Quiet is your definition of 'crazy, creative and different,' we have been playing very different games.

And that's all I'm going to say, because the rest of your argument is based around a totally facetious interpretation of my post and I honestly don't have the time nor motivation to repeat myself.

I never said quiet was a well-done character, only that i dislike the parameters you draw, where "Foreign language and a foreign culture portrayed as totally unapproachable concepts in order to create a divide of good and bad guys.". It's not even really fiction at that point, you're just sending a political message. I'm not here to defend quiet, i really don't care about her specifically, only that games not be seen as flawed for not following an overbearing game-plot script.

 

[Thyunda]

In "PC gone mad" country they don't have the spine to say "because I want them to be sexy."

In "PC? What's that?" country they don't need to grovel to the permanently angry and offended internet people.

Yeah sure man that's what it's about. Political correctness is the sole reason we like to have a range of body types and realistic portrayal of women in our fiction. It's not about representing reality or giving people relatable characters. The only possible objection we could have to blatant fanservice is "political correctness."

But see, fiction =/= reality. That's the whole point of fiction.

Fiction's gotta be relatable. This is why stand-up comedians tell stories that get more "I know that feeling" responses than actual laughs. This is why 'everyman' protagonists exist. If fiction has no grounding whatsoever in reality, it's simply not popular fiction. Authors, developers, filmmakers and scriptwriters all base their work in reality because otherwise their audience simply isn't going to care.
Even if your protagonist is an alien or an orc, they're an alien or an orc with relationship problems or a shitty job with a shitty boss. Only the villains' minions are totally alien, and that's because they have to be hateable. That's why the Modern Warfare franchise's protagonists are American marines with a side of British special forces, and the enemies are various shades of Arab or Russian. Foreign language and a foreign culture portrayed as totally unapproachable concepts in order to create a divide of good and bad guys. Halo had the Covenant, and then developed the Arbiter and other Covenant defectors or agents to be much more sympathetic, and since they stopped being faceless, alien villains, they added the Prometheans to fill that gap.

If you think fiction is totally divorced from reality, then you've probably never got a story published.

Was quiet really that bad? So bad that she was "totally divorced from reality?" Are you really going to use the grey, wall-hugger, boring, military default shooters to argue for more "realistic" games? Because to be totally honest, that just makes you sound like you hate the concept of crazy, creative, different games. Your vision of the games industry is one i do not want to live in, where there's no protaganist who isn't in the military, where there's "good guys" and "bad guys" and no attempt at moral complexity beyond that, no game that isn't a play-it-straight FPS, and anything even approaching high fantasy is seen as flawed because of it. No thank you.

If Quiet is your definition of 'crazy, creative and different,' we have been playing very different games.

And that's all I'm going to say, because the rest of your argument is based around a totally facetious interpretation of my post and I honestly don't have the time nor motivation to repeat myself.

I never said quiet was a well-done character, only that i dislike the parameters you draw, where "Foreign language and a foreign culture portrayed as totally unapproachable concepts in order to create a divide of good and bad guys.". It's not even really fiction at that point, you're just sending a political message. I'm not here to defend quiet, i really don't care about her specifically, only that games not be seen as flawed for not following an overbearing game-plot script.

It is still fiction, genius. See, Modern Warfare is not trying to be an anti-war story about soldiers being forced into combat by megalomaniacal betters. That is not the game it is trying to be. So it simplifies everything. Enemies shoot at you and then you shoot them and if they survive they continue shooting you. Nobody drops their gun to surrender, nobody tries to retreat, nobody begs you not to shoot them, because Modern Warfare isn't trying to traumatise its players. I didn't say this was a bad thing, for some reason you've attached that yourself. Other cultures make useful shorthands for visual differences or even justification for combat - you can dislike my 'parameters' if you like, but that's a fact.

See, you seem to care more that we don't criticise creators for creating a flawed story than you do about the actual growth and development of the creative industry. A creator's work is not sacred. Novels go through more editing time than actual writing time and it's very rare that a publisher will let an author sell their work totally unchanged. I hold videogames to the same standard I hold 'superior' media, because I, personally, believe videogames are on par with novels and films in terms of artistic merit, and so I won't make excuses for shittily-written characters or blatant fanservice. And Quiet's backstory is as shitty as they come. It's inconsistent with the game's world - The End was a walking shrubbery - it's immediately counteracted by an unlockable costume (that makes her look so badass) and it serves only to provide an excuse for a character to make some scenes hard to explain to your spouse.

But, since you apparently think I'm some sort of military-shooter fan, I can provide a tonne of other examples. Let's take The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, a fantasy game. Fantasy games are usually cited as 'unrealistic' because they don't take place in the 'real world,' but that's an odd standard to go by. Geralt's story is grounded in reality - because it's a human story. You could replace the Wild Hunt with the Mafia and take out all the magic and you still have a story about a man in a race against a deadly foe to rescue his daughter. This is what is meant by 'grounded in reality.' I'd go as far as to say the game wouldn't have been nearly so popular if Ciri had been replaced with a mystical artefact that had her exact powers but none of her relationship with Geralt. I'm not saying the sole reason for the game's success is its characters, but I'm certainly saying The Witcher 3 is a powerful, relatable narrative despite its fantasy setting.

 

[Scow2]

Except without the dick. No, you don't sexualize males and females differently. Unless you're a sexist. You'd still sexualize the chest and shoulders and hip ratio and butt, though, and give the impression of a package, but it wouldn't be a full-on schlong.

You do not sexualize men and women the same way, pal.

Otherwise, a typical sexy woman would have huge biceps, and a typical sexy man would have long lean legs.

No, a male cortana would be a whole lot like this "Larry". Sorry to break it up to you.

You sexualize the same parts. Not in the same way, but not different parts. A male Cortana would not have visible junk, though he'd have a realistic contour of a package (Female Cortana doesn't have unrealistically large breasts. They're above-average in size, but not unrealistic.) Corey just likes drawing big dicks when he can get away with it (Nothing wrong with that).

So let me repeat the question.
I can go at my job, a high school teacher, while dressed up like Quiet.

No, because that's unprofessional. But doing so doesn't stop you from being you, though it might make you an unemployed you.

In fact.... would you feel safe and secure if your own surgeon was dressed up like Quiet, before going on an performing open heart surgery on you?

No, because of sanitation reasons.

Don't try to make excuses. Quiet is supposed to be a deadly soldier in a battlefield. Except she's dressed like a deadly stripper in a night club. Not just that: she makes sure to strike up hot sensual poses, to erase any doubt.

The deadly part is the important thing. I'd have serious reservations about her being out of uniform for a number of professional reasons... but in a battle, results, not aesthetics, are what counts.

 

[SeanSeanston]

Oh dear, let us mourn the `good old days` before women started thinkin' they could wear clothes in games.

Yeah... except when was that the case?

And before straight white males being the protagonist nearly all the time was ruined by all these `political` people existing as something else.

Also, when was this ever true?

I suppose in a way... Samus Aran was also a man. Lara Croft not wearing a hijab while adventuring through tombs in a warm desert was a disgrace also.

...

Lara Croft was also a man!

Honestly, I feel like there's major historical revisionism going on here; there have always been lots of female characters in games, lots of clothed ones too, even where it didn't necessarily make realistic sense for the female characters to be there. e.g. In a fighting game.

Very rare was the game with several playable characters that didn't have 1 female.

Maybe this is a recent thing? i.e. The years before ~2006 never happened or don't count? So we can pretend that things used to be one way and there's a linear progression towards another way?

 

[SeanSeanston]

Imagine having to take Big Boss seriously while he's dressed like that the whole game... not as an alternate outfit, but as the actual official costume.

Hyeah...

Imagine playing a Metal Gear Solid game with a large stretch where you had to play as a completely naked man for some contrived reason. And if he was like... doing cartwheels in the nude to try and evade enemy soldiers! xD

Like that would ever happen.

(Again I seriously feel like I'm only 27 but things that happened in my lifetime have been forgotten -_-)

Be honest FFS: Big Boss in that pic is wearing way more clothes than Raiden's nudey chapter, not that Raiden wasn't wearing semi-pointlessly figure-hugging rubber in the first place, and at least Quiet has a legitimate and interesting in-story justification to be semi-nude.
Unlike the completely nude playable Raiden who Kojima just put jumping around Arsenal Gear holding his balls for a laugh.

Which is before we even begin to start with close ups of Snake's impossible tight ass.

 

[Scow2]

I disagree that the same parts are sexualized. As I said, a big biceps on a man can be sexy.... but it's certainly not the norm to think women with big biceps are hot.
Similarly, a woman with long, deerlike legs can be seen as hot. But you hardly see male legs being sexualized.

But I do agree that a male cortana wouldn't show his dick - he'd just have a quite evident crotch bulge (which is what I thought this comic was pointing out, although overexaggerating it).
And he'd be extremely goodlooking and would only be wearing a skimpy black underwear, of course.

Let's be honest. A whole lot of dudebros would deeply hate it and call it "gay".

You're talking about what you think sexualized males look like ("Overmuscled refrigerator on legs"). I think a male Cortana would actually look more like a holographic Chris Pratt, though.

... dammit, I wish I had decent drawing skills because I have a really strong mental image of a male equivalent of Cortana. He'd be an excellent JRPG protagonist. I also think you're overestimating the crotch bulge. It wouldn't be any worse than David Bowie in Labyrinth. (Actually... that's also a decent body reference, but the face will have to be different)

If Quiet was wearing the skimpy bikini as an alternate outfit, I wouldn't have cared. But that bikini - it's her official attire, it's how she appears in promotions and such, and sorry, but I can't take her anymore seriously than I would take a male soldier dressed in the same way.



Imagine having to take Big Boss seriously while he's dressed like that the whole game... not as an alternate outfit, but as the actual official costume.[/quote]... WHY IS THIS NOT ALREADY THE CASE? THIS IS WHY KOJIMA DOESN'T ALREADY HAVE MY MONEY!

But anyway... if that were an alternate outfit, at what point in the game would you respect her enough to let her wear it, given that it's apparently her favored outfit?

 

[Yuuki]

If Quiet was wearing the skimpy bikini as an alternate outfit, I wouldn't have cared.

I foresee that "alternate" costume becoming the default very quickly for most players.

Imagine having to take Big Boss seriously while he's dressed like that the whole game... not as an alternate outfit, but as the actual official costume.

Ehh no that just wouldn't fit in the game and would be a big turn-off for the core demographic.

I just wish Kojima hadn't conjured up all that bullshit about breathing through skin and had simply said "yes, Quiet is sexualized and there is nothing wrong with that" and left it at that.