Explaining BioShock Infinite
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
I agree with everything that you said but alot of the slower points of the game (like Elizabeth at Battleship bay) make up for the 'hey look how deep we are' narrative for me.1337mokro said:
I thought the vigors were tied into the Plasmids in the same way that the Handymen were tied into the Big Daddys in that they pulled the tech from the future but maybe im wrong and even though I agree that they squandered Songbird in terms of gameplay, his death was still really sad.
Im really conflicted about the game, I loved the crap out of it (I finished it in two sittings over an evening and morning) but the praise its getting grates me when I think of all the things that got forgotten. Not to mention that the combat in the original fitted the context of the game as it was about a slave, Infinate is about a man who laments what he's done one minute then blasts a guy in the face the next.
I still loved the game, one of my favourites of recent years, they just needed to really sink their teeth into the themes they presneted and not fear using the slower moments of the game to really explain these ideas. Still, im just gonna go and listen to 'God Only Knows' for the 100th time today. They nailed it with that over the credits.
Songbird will probably be solved via DLC, but he is forever lost in the main game. The vigors just exist, ok. But, why am I the only one using them. at all? See, they are everywhere in the city, and you will find the Crow/Coffin/Sword/KKK guy, or the Armor on Fire guy, but that's it. Why the other enemies do not use vigors, but, if you played Industrial Revolution they say the police is using at leas Bulking Bronco, probably charge too, since you find in the armory of a police station.
And if you follow the many, many speeches of the Lutece fellows, you will see they say that something is and always will be. So, kill Booker is 100% useless. And even worse, every time they kill a version, it will mess up the memories of the other versions, so, maybe that explains the post-credits scene. So yeah, again, the ending just do not work. And a last thing, since she killed Songbird and Booker, and said she would kill Comstock, and yet, was surprised when you do it, I have to say that Elisabeth is, maybe, a bit more dangerous and out of control that she looks. Years locked away in that tower might be the case.
The tower is another absurd: Why Comstock would hide her even from himself? Why hide Columbia from her? If she lived with him from the start, even inside that tower, you can bet that Booker would not be capable to take her away.
And the thing about killing the Lutece and Lady Comstock, first, if he liked her, why not tell her how he got the child? Maybe he killed her more for the effect over the public than anything else. The Lutece crew could see the future! Kind of. I do believe the lady Lutece would be curious about future, their future. Maybe she was, and maybe she desired that. And by the way, I would love if Irrational had called Mark Meer to be the male Lutece. It would just be nice.
About the philosophies involved, well, I would love to be capable to understand and build a good argument, but, it's just
not my area. Anyway, yeah, it's a bit weird to see the whole prejudice theme just disappear in thin air after the first scene. Bioshock Infinite world have depth, but it's hide in well guarded recorder devices, not in the story we live through.
But really, it's one of the best things I ever experimented in gaming.
PS.: At the ending, imagine if after she visited Rapture, she also could take him to see the stars even a bit more closer, maybe, in the UNN Rickenbacker...
And if you follow the many, many speeches of the Lutece fellows, you will see they say that something is and always will be. So, kill Booker is 100% useless. And even worse, every time they kill a version, it will mess up the memories of the other versions, so, maybe that explains the post-credits scene. So yeah, again, the ending just do not work. And a last thing, since she killed Songbird and Booker, and said she would kill Comstock, and yet, was surprised when you do it, I have to say that Elisabeth is, maybe, a bit more dangerous and out of control that she looks. Years locked away in that tower might be the case.
The tower is another absurd: Why Comstock would hide her even from himself? Why hide Columbia from her? If she lived with him from the start, even inside that tower, you can bet that Booker would not be capable to take her away.
And the thing about killing the Lutece and Lady Comstock, first, if he liked her, why not tell her how he got the child? Maybe he killed her more for the effect over the public than anything else. The Lutece crew could see the future! Kind of. I do believe the lady Lutece would be curious about future, their future. Maybe she was, and maybe she desired that. And by the way, I would love if Irrational had called Mark Meer to be the male Lutece. It would just be nice.
About the philosophies involved, well, I would love to be capable to understand and build a good argument, but, it's just
not my area. Anyway, yeah, it's a bit weird to see the whole prejudice theme just disappear in thin air after the first scene. Bioshock Infinite world have depth, but it's hide in well guarded recorder devices, not in the story we live through.
But really, it's one of the best things I ever experimented in gaming.
PS.: At the ending, imagine if after she visited Rapture, she also could take him to see the stars even a bit more closer, maybe, in the UNN Rickenbacker...
YES!, that's exactly what I thought!, if she takes you to Rapture and after her lines of "there will always be a man and a city", it would make a lot of sense (and lots of tingly feelings) if she'd take you to the Von Braun just for teh lulz.eltonborges said:
But I guess that there's some legal stuff that prevented Irrational from using anything from System Shock 2 and simply because BioShock 1 is more recent in most gamers memories.
OH fuck yeah I restarted that level multiple times before there was a youtube video of it.PunkRex said:
But that again show cases how much this game fails. We could have had this a capela group pop up over multiple parts of the game singing ironic songs. God Only Knows at the start. Now we're together in Battleship Bay. There's Something Special About You after passing through the tear and entering alternate reality FINK industries where he was revealing the first Handyman or something.
The game could have done SO much more with what it had but it just didn't.
It could have even had some genuine comedy, think about the hilarity if the a capela group was similar to the Luteces because they got accidentally unegulfed in the tear when the machine exploded because they lived next door. Now they are interdimensionally popping up everywhere because they exist everywhere and nowhere engaging in ironic songs because they basically have eternity and nothing to do till the Luteces fix shit.
EDIT: Fiarflair has convinced me I was wrong about this matter, see later in the thread
An important point to note is that Elizabeth does not drown Booker - she drowns Comstock. She drowns each and every Booker that did not walk away from the baptism. So the game does not end with the death of the protagonist, but with a new start for the once-broken Booker DeWitt. Sadly, this is lost to most people not wanting to watch 16 minutes of credits for a ten-second stinger.
CAPTCHA: hot diggity dog
Darnit, Captcha, I'm trying to run a serious post here!
An important point to note is that Elizabeth does not drown Booker - she drowns Comstock. She drowns each and every Booker that did not walk away from the baptism. So the game does not end with the death of the protagonist, but with a new start for the once-broken Booker DeWitt. Sadly, this is lost to most people not wanting to watch 16 minutes of credits for a ten-second stinger.
CAPTCHA: hot diggity dog
Darnit, Captcha, I'm trying to run a serious post here!
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/04/bioshock-infinite-wizard-of-oz/
Here's a VERY FUCKING INTERESTING article i read a few days ago talking about the parallels between Infinite and the wizard of Oz which i think is somewhat relevant here.
TLDR for the who = the WoO counterparts
The imagery REALLY is similar when you think about it, Booker's office/New york and the light house are incredibly dark and washed away colored until you get to Columbia, the what is a dream kind of mood of the stinger, the obvious tornado scene. The fact that our fist encounter with Comstock was a giant projected head that revealed his body as just some old man etc etc
Here's a VERY FUCKING INTERESTING article i read a few days ago talking about the parallels between Infinite and the wizard of Oz which i think is somewhat relevant here.
TLDR for the who = the WoO counterparts
for the TL-DR people: Booker = Dorthy, The first crow cultist = scarecrow, Slate = Tim-man, Fink = Lion, Elizabeth = Good Witch, Daisy = Witch of the West, Lady Comstock = Witch of the East, and Comstock = OZ
The imagery REALLY is similar when you think about it, Booker's office/New york and the light house are incredibly dark and washed away colored until you get to Columbia, the what is a dream kind of mood of the stinger, the obvious tornado scene. The fact that our fist encounter with Comstock was a giant projected head that revealed his body as just some old man etc etc
If Comstock still exists then there is still a possibility that he'll create the evil Elizabeth to "drown the mountains of man", and because of her dimension tearing abilities you could assume she won't just stop with her own universe. So basically the entire multiverse is screwed if you allow evil Elizabeth to ever exist.Tombsite said:My biggest problem with the ending is kind of simple, why do we need to stop Comstock in all the universes?
Our Dewitt and Elizabeth/Anna are safe and together. Dewitt is (IMO) redeemed by fighting for, and getting back his daughter. So why do we need to do more?
And if you have a good answer please tell me
Not a bad suggestion. Still the game doesn't really hint at that as an outcome.philosophicalbastard said:If Comstock still exists then there is still a possibility that he'll create the evil Elizabeth to "drown the mountains of man", and because of her dimension tearing abilities you could assume she won't just stop with her own universe. So basically the entire multiverse is screwed if you allow evil Elizabeth to ever exist.Tombsite said:My biggest problem with the ending is kind of simple, why do we need to stop Comstock in all the universes?
Our Dewitt and Elizabeth/Anna are safe and together. Dewitt is (IMO) redeemed by fighting for, and getting back his daughter. So why do we need to do more?
And if you have a good answer please tell me
IF we're talking alternate universes, and Infinity, aren't we just talking a multiverse theory where everything happens? Meaning that the "Kill Booker to deny Comstock" universe is just another split. Therefore nothing changes, and there can be no paradox because there is still a Booker/Comstock universe and a Booker/Drunk Booker to be pulled into it setting up the 3rd choice of killing Booker before he's Comstock...Shamus Young said:
It makes the brain hurt but it works I guess.
NinjaDeathSlap said:
That day in the distant future is when Elizabeth first takes off the leash, the control collar which keeps her doing what Comstock wants long after his death. Well, the first thing she does once she is free of the leash is summon Booker to help her not become herself. That's why you suddenly end up in the future while heading to Comstock House. It's explained across two of the audio logs you find in Comstock House.
My question is regarding the opening scene. Played from the start, the opening has Rosalind Lutece handing you a box full of your stuff. Most of the contents of that box do not make sense in the context of the ending. A gun, sure. A taped-on answer to the first "puzzle"? Wait. A picture of Elizabeth with a scrawling on the back saying to bring her to New York? Okay, hold it. If, as it is explained in the ending, the Lutece's weren't sure what Booker would remember, how did they put together this very elaborate prop to enforce memories they weren't even sure he'd have?
Second, inside the lighthouse there are notes and corpses insisting that Booker hurry up and get the girl. Where did these come from and why are they there, except to mislead the player into not guessing the ending REALLY early? These props are dropped almost immediately, lest they confuse the player in the ending, and I have to wonder why they exist in the beginning at all.
My question is regarding the opening scene. Played from the start, the opening has Rosalind Lutece handing you a box full of your stuff. Most of the contents of that box do not make sense in the context of the ending. A gun, sure. A taped-on answer to the first "puzzle"? Wait. A picture of Elizabeth with a scrawling on the back saying to bring her to New York? Okay, hold it. If, as it is explained in the ending, the Lutece's weren't sure what Booker would remember, how did they put together this very elaborate prop to enforce memories they weren't even sure he'd have?
Second, inside the lighthouse there are notes and corpses insisting that Booker hurry up and get the girl. Where did these come from and why are they there, except to mislead the player into not guessing the ending REALLY early? These props are dropped almost immediately, lest they confuse the player in the ending, and I have to wonder why they exist in the beginning at all.
Elizabeth's tower wasn't just to keep her locked. Its was a device that drained her powers and prevented her from escaping through tears.eltonborges said:
Lady Comstock thought that her husband was chosen by God to see the future, she wasn't his partner in crime(you can see how revealing the truth about Zachary Comstock might hurt his prophet public image, so she had to die.) Also Lutece tried to explain to her but LC thought she was lying.
Also the Luteces could see other universes, not the future.
I believe that Lutece or Elizabeth mention at some point that you sell Anna to Comstock twenty years later, after you've spent 20 years drinking away your memories about Wounded Knee and hook up with some unmentioned woman. Then shortly after you're grabbed and pulled into Comstocks universe and the process scrambles the heck out of your brain.aeric90 said:
Future Elizabeth transports you there. She literally tells you this, or maybe it's contained in an voxophone, I forget now. I wouldn't bother with spoiler tags really; you shouldn't even be reading this thread if you're worried about spoilers and this was pointed out in the article.NinjaDeathSlap said:
Constants and variables, my friend. It is not strictly a multiverse theory where everything that can happen, does. It's more like some things can deviate into a multiverse of possibilities and others do not; for instance, the coin toss early on in the game always remaining the same, or the fact that you jump through a couple different tears but no matter which you do, Rosa Parks is always blamed for Lady Comstocks death and Comstock is always a villian.amaranth_dru said:
You have to think about it like a series of "if thens": if Booker agrees to be baptized he becomes the Comstock who builds Columbia and becomes the villian (even if certain things happen differently, he always becomes a villain who builds Columbia and steals his counterparts baby), and if he backs away at the last minute and rejects the idea that baptism can absolve him, he becomes the Booker who drinks his life away, remains heavily in debt, and has his baby stolen. This is a "variable" but it's also a constant in the sense that those two possibilities are the only two possibilities to come from the baptism. If there was an earlier scenario where Booker never even considers being baptized (maybe he never participated in Wounded Knee, or perhaps he was never accused of having Indian blood, or whatever) Comstock simply couldn't exist in such a universe, so there could conceivably be a multitude of universes with a non-alchoholic Booker and no Anna.
So imagine an infinite number of universes and an infinite number of Bookers, but there is exactly one point where Comstock could come to be: the baptism; Elizabeth, using her amazing deus ex powers of cross-universe perception that she gets when the Siphon is destroyed, knows what this point is, and drowns him during the Baptism.
You can say that there are some universes where Elizabeth drowns Booker during the baptism, and others where she does not, but remember, Elizabeth is literally teleporting between universes and thus changing the multiverse. She is deciding what the constants and variables are at that point.
Generally it felt that the line between understanding the plot, and being utterly confuzzled lies at whether you listened to the audiologs or not. On the whole I found the plot admirably well constructed - it manages to tie itself neatly in a way that makes sense from the beginning, and doesn't involve external dei ex machina. No easy feat for a story involving overlapping multiple realities.NinjaDeathSlap said:
Being brainwashed isn't something you "fight", it's more akin to growing out of it, in much the same way as that if you'll look back at teenage you, you're probably considering him an idiot. In her case she just took a while. It's quite understandable, since as far as bad decisions go, "scourging the earth with fire" somewhat outclasses a ridiculous haircut.
As far as the teleport to the future goes, I believe you do black out for a second. She probably just whacked you from behind and dragged you through the tear. Or something.
As far as the teleport to the future goes, I believe you do black out for a second. She probably just whacked you from behind and dragged you through the tear. Or something.
I think it's safe to say she opened up a tear in front of you and you just walked through it. You're walking along an incredibly linear path through dense fog, I believe, so it's not entirely out of the question to imagine that possibility.Kargathia said:
What I don't get is why they had to stop Comstock in every universe ever. In the space of infinite potentialities, his is but one cataclysm amongst many. So, there's an massive/infinite set of universes (Universi?) he lays waste to. presumably, there's an equal set of universes where the world ends in nuclear holocaust when the Cuban Missile Crises goes wrong, or Hitler wins, or a giant asteroid shatters the planet, etc. Does Elizabeth and Brooker really have to throw away the ability to hop across creation in order to bring down this one man? I'd be a lot happier with the ending if it was just a scene of them kicking back in Paris rather than them being reset to just a couple of boring, average people I no longer care about.
P.S: It appears Columbia's onslaught against the world/New York takes place around the 1980s. I'd really like to see those silly airships going head-to-head against F-14s and surface-to-air missiles. Somehow, I don't think one floating city wiping out the rest of the world is such a foregone conclusion.
P.S: It appears Columbia's onslaught against the world/New York takes place around the 1980s. I'd really like to see those silly airships going head-to-head against F-14s and surface-to-air missiles. Somehow, I don't think one floating city wiping out the rest of the world is such a foregone conclusion.
