Explaining BioShock Infinite
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
This decision puzzles me as well. The best I can offer as an explanation of why the set of universes that result from Dewitt?s decision are limited to him going through the door is the discussion Elizabeth and Booker have when walking among the lighthouses in the sun:RJ 17 said:
Elizabeth: Look!
Booker: It's us.
Elizabeth: Not exactly. We swim in different oceans but land on the same shore. It always starts with a lighthouse.
Booker: I don?t understand.
Elizabeth: We don?t need to. It?ll happen all the same.
Booker: Why?
Elizabeth: Because it does. Because it has. Because it will.
Booker: There are so many choices
Elizabeth: They all lead us to the same place... where it started.
Booker: No one tells me where to go.
Elizabeth: Booker, you?ve already been.
It is worth noting that the Elizabeths at the end disappear, having removed the possibility of the universes that spawned them ever existing. That would only occur if at least every version of Dewitt that goes on to become Comstock is drowned. It would certainly happen if, as I said earlier, every version of Dewitt is drowned (both theories yield the same after-the-credits result but I feel the latter better fits with what Elizabeth says).
Perhaps we have reason to doubt the intended meaning of the multiple-Elizabeths scene an whether the Dewitt you play as represents them all, but I confess that at this point in the exploration of what happened I am content to move on. What interests me more than any of this is what the game tries to say in a broader sense. I have my own thoughts on it and would be very interested to hear what others think.
The protagonist was a bad person from the outset no matter what version of him is examined. He is offered a deal to wipe away his wrongs but the deal is just the next step in a progression toward destruction. His past wrongs (before the baptism occurs) cannot be undone and attempts to do so are futile.
So then what do the events of the game, as a whole, represent or teach?
That trumped up, vicarious, redemption is no redemption at all; that the past cannot be undone; that the future is a realm of possibility in which we are free to live a different way while still bearing responsibility for our past.
I think it is extraordinary that some people have said the racial elements in the game aren't relevant to the overall message. To play Bioshock Infinite is to play out an impossible narrative in which the protagionist both struggles against and accepts his own fate. Indeed, the frequent references to constants and variables prompt the player to examine the very nature of self-determination. Themes of racial suppression and conflict tied in very nicely, I thought.
Hrmmm....I appreciate the attempt because you clearly do have a better grasp of things than I do, but I still don't entirely buy it. I think a big problem is that there's parts of the ending that are left open to interpretation that shouldn't be. Specifically: all the Elizabeths at the end. To me that didn't signify a convergence of all possible timelines rejoining into that single moment so that Comstock can finally die with Booker, to me it was simply a tool that your Elizabeth was using to hammer home the point that you ARE Comstock, as that's when it's officially revealed. I still say that even as they're walking amongst the lighthouses, there's a number of points where the decision can be made "Screw this, lets go home" which would in turn create "lets go home" universes in which the sacrifice is never made, and if a possible Booker doesn't accept the sacrifice, then how does that Booker somehow magically get tied back into the sacrifice? He decided to walk off and leave the whole thing behind him.Fiairflair said:
Getting onto your discussion about what the overall story was meant to portray, I think it was just a classic story of redemption. Old Elizabeth feels deep regret for what she's done and what she's become, so she starts using what's left of her power to start yanking out Bookers from across the various multiple universes. Why? So that she can redeem herself by offering Booker a chance to redeem himself. Not only is Booker on a quest for redemption to clear up his (as we believe in the beginning) gambling debts, but he's also on a quest for redemption to make up for the mistake of selling Anna away. This is seen by the brand he wears: AD. I believe the Luteces even touch on that during the ending, commenting on the brand he wears. What confuses me about that part is the fact that FemLutece says "This one has a mark on his hand." as though it's something new, something that previous Bookers haven't had. If that's the case, how does Comstock know that AD is the mark of the "false prophet"? You can't really say "Well in the world they pulled that Booker from..." because Columbia only exists in a world in which Booker doesn't (because he became Comstock).
Anyways, I'm getting off track. Old Elizabeth is trying for find redemption for the sins she has committed by blowing up the world, just as Booker was trying to seek redemption through baptism for the atrocities he committed back at Wounded Knee. Either he believes the crimes of his past can be washed away or he doesn't. Comstock is seeking to redeem the "Sodom below" by cleansing it with fire, and "present" Booker - no longer bothering to seek redemption of his past sins - just needs to get rid of his debt. But in truth, he's seeking redemption for the sin of selling Anna off, he just doesn't realize this until he realizes that Elizabeth IS Anna.
And so, by Old Elizabeth giving Booker the chance to get redemption for that sin by rescuing "present" Elizabeth from the tower and thus get his daughter back, she is in turn gaining redemption for herself by ensuring (apparently
) that the universe in which she becomes the great destroyer never happpens (though I still don't see it like that).And just on a completely unrelated side note that I've been wanting to bring up...listening to Elizabeth get tortured while you're going through Comstock House is probably the most painful, gut-wrenching part of any game I've ever played.
Okay, the one loose thread that bugged me was...
The nosebleeds.
When first introduced, Elizabeth mentions them as being side-effects of the Tears - that the person has multiple sets of conflicting memories, resulting in the nosebleed.
The nosebleeds (and weird behaviour) of Chen Lin and the random mooks when Elizabeth and Booker start Tear-hopping make sense if you go with Elizabeth's explanation that she feels like she's creating a new reality. Chen Lin (and the mooks) were dead, suddenly Elizabeth makes them alive and the resulting confusion causes disorientation and nosebleeds.
However, this explanation comes crashing to the ground during the ending when it's revealed that the millions on millions of realities exist anyway - Chen Lin and the mooks DIDN'T come back to life, Elizabeth and Booker just jumped to a reality where they never died. The "dead" memories should never have existed for them. This is reinforced by the fact that (at that early point in the game) Elizabeth isn't manufacturing Tears, she is mostly taking advantage of pre-existing ones.
If the explanation is that it's the presence of Booker and Elizabeth invading from another reality "forcing" the other reality's memories on them, why doesn't this happen consistently throughout the game? And why does Booker only develop a nosebleed when he kills Comstock? Shouldn't Booker and Elizabeth be the ones consistently having nosebleeds when they jump through a Tear and have that reality's memories "forced" on them?
The nosebleeds.
When first introduced, Elizabeth mentions them as being side-effects of the Tears - that the person has multiple sets of conflicting memories, resulting in the nosebleed.
The nosebleeds (and weird behaviour) of Chen Lin and the random mooks when Elizabeth and Booker start Tear-hopping make sense if you go with Elizabeth's explanation that she feels like she's creating a new reality. Chen Lin (and the mooks) were dead, suddenly Elizabeth makes them alive and the resulting confusion causes disorientation and nosebleeds.
However, this explanation comes crashing to the ground during the ending when it's revealed that the millions on millions of realities exist anyway - Chen Lin and the mooks DIDN'T come back to life, Elizabeth and Booker just jumped to a reality where they never died. The "dead" memories should never have existed for them. This is reinforced by the fact that (at that early point in the game) Elizabeth isn't manufacturing Tears, she is mostly taking advantage of pre-existing ones.
If the explanation is that it's the presence of Booker and Elizabeth invading from another reality "forcing" the other reality's memories on them, why doesn't this happen consistently throughout the game? And why does Booker only develop a nosebleed when he kills Comstock? Shouldn't Booker and Elizabeth be the ones consistently having nosebleeds when they jump through a Tear and have that reality's memories "forced" on them?
Booker isn't the only person who has nosebleeds. Many NPCs are seen and remarked upon once you switch universes (twice) to get Chen Lin's weapons for the Voxpopuli. The phenonemon is is both remarked upon by Rosalind Lutece on voxophones and discussed by the Luteces at the end of the game. You may remember the point when Rosalind says 'You're quite fond of this theory of yours,' to which Robert replies 'He is manufacturing new memories from his old ones' and also says 'I should know. I lived it.' It is also discussed by Elizabeth and Booker when you cross back through Shanty Town.Korskarn said:
I found the nosebleeds easiest to understand by considering Robert Lutece's experiences.
Actually, Rosalind says 'Do you suppose he branded himself as some sort of penance?' without suggesting that this is a detail unique to the Booker we play as.RJ 17 said:
Redemption, yes. Even more interesting is that it so often doesn't succeed. Comstock may have believed baptism would redeem him but the game designers sent a very clear message that they didn?t think being '...born again in the blood of the lamb' counts for very much. Old Elizabeth is a very complicated and interesting character and I agree with what you said, although I think her prime motivator was preserving a hope her former self had but that she no longer had. That moment in the game was made all the more potent by the very well done sounds of torture you hear as you run through the asylum level.RJ 17 said:
One thing I like in particular is when you go to do your second playthrough, and things Lutece(s) say make more sense.
Male: "He doesn't row."
Female: "He doesn't ROW?"
Male: "No, he DOESN'T row."
As in, he won't row because he didn't row, doesn't row, won't row.
It seems to me the whole "thought experiment" they're having is to see if Booker can actually change something, since in all their observations as omnipresent beings, they've found that events don't change. Details might but the events do not.
Male: "He doesn't row."
Female: "He doesn't ROW?"
Male: "No, he DOESN'T row."
As in, he won't row because he didn't row, doesn't row, won't row.
It seems to me the whole "thought experiment" they're having is to see if Booker can actually change something, since in all their observations as omnipresent beings, they've found that events don't change. Details might but the events do not.
But shouldn't Booker have had nosebleeds at the start if he's manufacturing new memories? And why are some NPCs getting nosebleeds when B+E come into their reality? "They remember being dead" - why? They were never dead in their own reality - which they're still in - where are those memories coming from?Fiairflair said:
Why isn't Booker a walking nosebleed factory from the start (either for himself or for everyone else) since he's not in his own reality for the entire game except for the last 5 minutes where he goes back in time to the baptism.
So, has anybody discussed the difference in the story for choosing the BIRD versus choosing the CAGE? I noticed the achievement "The Bird or the Cage" popped up when the siphon was destroyed. I had chosen the CAGE and the letter that I was asked to give Elizabeth had three cages drawn on it. What changes if you choose the BIRD?
Here's another idea:
What if Booker is just a raging alcoholic, drinking away his pain, his regrets, his waking life, his sanity and his liver? He's a real hero in his feverish dreams, and every single time he dies he wakes up and goes down to the corner shop to get the cheapest booze he can get. On with the show!
What if Booker is just a raging alcoholic, drinking away his pain, his regrets, his waking life, his sanity and his liver? He's a real hero in his feverish dreams, and every single time he dies he wakes up and goes down to the corner shop to get the cheapest booze he can get. On with the show!