Explosions Seen over Gaza in "Saddest Photo Yet" from Space

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

The Israeli military has access to state-of-the-art tech and are more than capable of acquiring and verifying targets remotely before launching strikes, so in theory these kind of civilian casualties should be being kept to a minimum, however since the recent hostilities began nearly 1,000 Palestinians have been killed and nearly 6,000 wounded. How many casualties have the Isrealis suffered? Less than 40. The Isreali response has been vastly disproportionate to the level of attacks they have suffered.

Because, again, Hamas deliberately hides themselves in civilian hubs to maximize civilian casualties. This is so they can use the numbers to their favor. Of course you will get those large numbers, regardless of how precise the tactics are. That's the strategy. Whether or not Israel's response is appropriate, I am not at liberty to say.

I also previously mentioned in another comment why the argument of "proportionality" doesn't quite work in this situation. The only way it would be "proportional" is if more civilians were killed on the Israeli side, or if Hamas would stop centralizing themselves in civilian populations. Unless you are suggesting that Israeli civilian deaths would be okay, which I am fairly sure you're not, the best course of action would be to stop the ouroboros that both sides perpetuate. How do you do that, I'm not sure.

I don't blame them for wanting to stop it, one way or another. I'd imagine most developed nations would prefer rockets to not be fired onto them. But again, whether or not the response is appropriate, I don't know and I won't pretend to know.

A really depressing example of what I mean is that even though a 12 hour cease-fire has been agreed by the two sides, the Isreali military has said that it will still "locate and neutralize" Hamas forces. <a href=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28497439>During the cease-fire for crying out loud.

This is after Israel agreed to a cease-fire a few days earlier and Hamas continued to fire rockets during said cease-fire. They have also recently agreed to extend the cease-fire [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28507951], though Hamas still intends to fire rockets from what I can tell.

I think that, as you rightly say, neither side wishes to be attacked - but this also leads to a situation where neither side wishes to be the last to be attacked; the Israelis need to be seen to retaliate against the latest Hamas attack and vice-versa. This leads directly on to the current situation where Israel feels justified in violating the current cease-fire simply because Hamas violated the last one.

At the end of the day it's a thoroughly shitty situation with no easy solution (just look at how long it took us and Ireland to end 'The Troubles'), but as I've said Israel will not gain international support by sinking to Hamas' level.

EDIT - And for the record, although I am sickened by fact that twenty (+) Palistinian lives have been taken for each Israeli life in this current conflict, I view any Palistinian attempt to in some sick way 'redress the balance' as abhorrent. The last thing this whole sad affair needs is more casualties.

 

[Jumplion]

I think that, as you rightly say, neither side wishes to be attacked - but this also leads to a situation where neither side wishes to be the last to be attacked; the Israelis need to be seen to retaliate against the latest Hamas attack and vice-versa. This leads directly on to the current situation where Israel feels justified in violating the current cease-fire simply because Hamas violated the last one.

I think that is a very apt way of stating the relations currently. I recall hearing an interview on NPR where the interviewee stated "Both sides want to come away from this conflict feeling like they achieved something," and I'd say that mentality definitely fuels the conflict, if not most conflicts in history.

At the end of the day it's a thoroughly shitty situation with no easy solution (just look at how long it took us and Ireland to end 'The Troubles'), but as I've said Israel will not gain international support by sinking to Hamas' level.

Certainly some would debate whether Israel is "sinking to Hamas' level", though that is not my place to say.

Regardless, I do agree with you.

EDIT - And for the record, although I am sickened by fact that twenty (+) Palistinian lives have been taken for each Israeli life in this current conflict, I view any Palistinian attempt to in some sick way 'redress the balance' as abhorrent. The last thing this whole sad affair needs is more casualties.

I would hope so, and appreciate your clarification.

I wouldn't mind taking this conversation into PM if anyone wants to discuss more about this topic. It's a messy situation, probably best not to make this thread more messy at the very least.

Everything below this is mostly just me rambling and figuring things out in my head. Over the course of this whole conflict I've been struggling with my own personal morals. I am culturally Jewish though do not associate religiously with anything and have family there, so it's been exhausting to think of this. Permit me to vent, if you will.

I fully admit, as someone who has closer ties to Israel than Palestine, it is extremely hard to not take this personally to some extent. I listed earlier some of the lovely events in history of Jewish persecution, and it's safe to say history has been quite the ***** to the Jews.

I am not bringing that up as justification for Israeli policy of any kind. Rather, I bring it up to bring in some context to Israeli and/or Jewish relations and their reasonings. Despite what some may claim as "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing", I'd posit most of it is due to an intrinsic paranoia and, to a certain-extent, victim-complex. Which, let's face it, isn't entirely unjustified to develop considering history.

A lot of this ties in fairly heavily to taking things personally. I'm sad to admit that when I see a "#supportgaza" or "#iampalestinian" on Facebook, I get worried; are they supporting the innocent men, women, and children who are in this conflict and wish it to end peacefully? Or are they being fueled of a hatred for Jews, or wishing Israel to be completely destroyed, or other lovely things? Having spoken personally with some people who had posted things like that, it's only further made me paranoid. One of them basically stated that the Jews control the media and propagate lies and that is why he is against Israel (not supportive of Gaza, if you'll note). Another subtly suggested that it is understandable for Hamas to fire against Israel (I can understand Palestinian frustrations, for sure), which wouldn't be so bad if they also didn't insinuate that they were in the right to do so and okay with them deliberately targeting civilians. I hate that I feel this way, but I can't help but simultaneously feel at least somewhat justified for that paranoia and doubtful of said justification.

I spoke with some family members in Israel, and they had fairly consistent thoughts as well. They distinguished between Palestinians and Hamas, with one stating regret that they "hate" Palestinians but only because Hamas has conditioned them to think this way. Some just wanted to stop Hamas and get out, stop bothering with the whole thing entirely. I'd like to extrapolate this into the majority of Israeli opinion, but obviously I can't.

It's messy, I suppose is all I can say in the end.