mikespoff said:
I'm with James and the EC guys on this one.
The football analogy is the most clear to me. Despite Grip's arguments to the contrary, a game of football (or any sport) is dictated by rules just as strict as its virtual equivalent. The rules of play define the space in which the players create the game.
Grip seems to say that the rules of a video game are stricter; I have to say that I have yet to find a video game with rules that are more rigidly enforced than gravity and conservation of momentum, which are two of the rules that govern most sports...
So then according to Portnow's argument, can Joe Montana or Michael Jordan be considered amazing artists? What about the announcers describing the game? That's one of the problems I have with that line of reasoning.
Also, the rules of physics are dictated by nature, not by a human, so they can't be taken into account. Additionally the other rules of football are malleable, and can only be enforced to the degree that all the players agree on them. The rules of a video game are 1) created entirely through human effort 2) unchangeable unless a) specially designated by the developer b) hacked by a third party (which is akin to drawing over a copy of an artist's painting).
matrix guardian said:
It seems people who are taking Grip's stance tend to view it as an all or nothing type of deal, as if granting some artistic creativity to the player somehow diminishes the artistic merits and steals credit from the game developers. As if calling the player and artist means that the developers aren't artists? Why can't it be both, without threatening one or the other?
Personally, I have more of an issue with people using Portnow's stance to claim that video games are "special" because of the co-authorship idea. The same phenomenon is present in other mediums as well. You already noted how games are similar to theater and dance, but even in literature and film you have audiences interpreting the same events very differently and essentially making the artwork into something it might not have originally been intended for.
I also think that few people realize how much the developer actually controls the player's actions, even in a relatively "open" game like Mass Effect. For example, choosing either the paragon or renegade path does not make you an artist because both paths and their outcomes were already carefully created by the developers.
Emergent play could perhaps be considered artistic, provided that it's actually emergent and not just something that already laid out for you by the developer.
matrix guardian said:
The difference is that the video game player is BOTH partly the co-artist and the audience. Some have mentioned that it only counts as art if it is communicated to someone else. But I don't know if that is true. Can the artist also be the audience. As James said, they player is telling a story to themself. What comes to mind for me is when I play guitar and sing a song for my own amusement when I'm by myself. Does being the player of the music as well as the intended audience mean that it can't be an artful experience? I would say no, it very well can. And what If I play a song that somebody else wrote? Is music only art when it's played by the composer? Of course not. The musical experience of me playing a song is a co-created event, by the writer of the song and by me learning to play it and physically manifesting the song, and in the process adding part of myself into it. I can change the tempo, make it more staccato, add crescendos, alter the strumming/picking pattern, etc. All things to make it MY performance, even though it is still that same song that someone else wrote (the same pre-written "story" to follow).
I will agree that it would be very silly to say that since I played a certain game that "I made that game, that's my artwork." But I would also think it would be silly to deny that I played an active role in creating and shaping my experience of the game.
I would agree that you can be your own audience, but I think that in order to be considered an artist there has to be some conscious effort to make art. Otherwise it is just play, which I don't think can be considered art by most definitions. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying art can't be fun to make. It can, but at the same time attention must be paid to the fact that sometimes the most artistic choices aren't always the most fun.
To put it another way, someone leisurely playing Halo or Mass Effect probably isn't creating art, just the same as someone casually reading Hamlet or practicing Beethoven on their piano isn't an artist either. The true artistry comes when someone is already well familiar with the original work, and the make a conscious effort to make it into something of their own. A Marxist reading of Hamlet, for example, or a performance of Beethoven where the differences from other performances are more a result of skill than lack thereof.
Skunktrain said:
If I may be so bold as to add my two cents on the matter I see the role of the player as the part of an actor. The script is set and the gameplay serves as the director for this particular telling of the story. A game like Minecraft where the player generates much of the content is analogous to improv while an open-world game is more like a play and the strictly linear games are movies. None would deny that actors are artists but they present stories and may take different approaches to a part most often there are a limited range of interpretations. For instance, there is academic debate as to whether Hamlet is insane or faking (leaving aside the popularity of interpretations) so an actor must decide at the outset which his interpretation of Hamlet will be; in much the same manner, in Mass Effect the player is forced to quickly choose whether they will follow the Paragon or the Renegade path. In GTA the player may skip missions for flow or interest but the game might not permit it if the plot point is too important much like most stage plays. Final Fantasy 13 is like working for an auteur director who has a vision for the film and demands that the performer hit specific emotional notes at specific times and will give only enough leeway to ensure those notes be hit. This ties into the long-time question of lives in video games: those are rehearsals. As an aside, I also can't help but notice that both acting and video games tend to appeal to less extroverted people. I know that that is a generalization that does our industry no favors but it is interesting that both would attract the same kind of people.
I would agree with you as long as the "performance" is a conscious effort. For example, a great actor choosing to play Hamlet as either faking or crazy is certainly an artist, but one who comes off as either despite not giving the issue any thought is not.
Similarly, something you create in Minecraft might be artistic, but you are only an artist if you consciously set out to create art in the first place.
Sylocat said:
I differ from the position of both of the conversants here.
Because I don't think it's a matter of fundamental differences. I think it's a matter of degree.
There's a major difference between the Role of the Player in Final Fantasy XIII and the RotP in Minecraft. One is an interactive movie, the other is a creativity toy draped in the trappings of a video game. Neither of these games are BAD (yes, I liked FFXIII, so sue me), and neither one is less qualified to be classified as a "game" than the other, but I don't see how the player can be said to "shape the narrative" of a game that consists mainly of predetermined cutscenes. Whereas with Minecraft, not only do you shape the narrative, you pretty much CREATE the narrative.
So, while both sides of this conversation have made some insightful points, I think they're both missing the real point. They are debating over where the line is drawn, but I don't think there IS a hard line. Life is a matter of degree, as is narrative.
In addition, I take issue with the "indubitability" of the claim that football has a narrative. Sports have narratives in the same way that accounting has a narrative. "Joseph Sports scored more scores than the other men, and won that thing!"[footnote](cookies to whoever gets this reference)[/footnote] has about the same narrative chops as, "Joe Accountant added this number to that number and got a third number, and after seven hours of doing this he got bored and fell asleep." Now, this is still technically a narrative, but when extrapolated in the other direction, it means that watching a movie and reading a book allows the reader to take part in the narrative. This can be through interpretation and analysis, play-along participation (I'm thinking of the famous "rituals" of The Rocky Horror Picture Show), or just having experiences like bonding over movies and stuff. Activity books also qualify.
But, in any case, it's nice to have a forum thread filled with insightful wall-o-text comments again. I've been here since the early days of ZP, and I was worried those days were gone forever.
I agree with you, and would like to know what that quote is a reference to. =)